JV with a whopping 47 pts allowed vs. Phoenix

[Sakkreth]

[PerfectJab]

As much as I agree with JV's defensive shortcomings, it's a team game and it is not fair to put every bucket he was scored on solely on him. Some players are going to score on you regardless of how good your defense is and sometimes a team's defensive scheme puts a player in a position to fail. It's up to the team to 'mask' those weaknesses or make adjustments.

With this being said, yhy was JV kept in the game if he was to blame for all 47 points? Why did the team win? There are 'some' truths to your analysis, but it is ridiculous to break it down and come to a conclusion like that. Seems motivated by emotion vs reality.

[7 Footer]

holy **** the hate for JV is strong. Mans beasted, got the win, lets keep it moving

[Jstock12]

This thread is pathetic... Next time, please leave the game analysis to the experts. You're discrediting every JV hater on this board, some of whom actually make a few valid points.

[Gntts]

So, when JV was on the floor, Suns scored 64 points. It turns out, that 47 points out of 64 were JV's fault. This is "whooping" 73.4%.

Actually, if to take into account that Suns scored 2 points on free throws after the fouls, which were committed, when JV was on the bench, and 1 pt was scored after JV was benched, the situation is even worse - JV allowed 74.6% of all the points scored by Suns, when he was on the floor (47 out of 63).

Until today, I was sure that basketball is played 5 vs 5. Well, I guess I was wrong.

By the way, according to the box score JV was +16. However, if we take into account that Suns scored 2 points on free throws, which were committed, when JV was on the bench, Suns scored 1 pt and Lowry made on free throw, when JV was sent to the bench, the correct -/+ should be +18.

This just shows that the accuracy of "-/+" calculated from the box scores is in the range of 5–10%.

[soloxylo]

As defecient as JV is on the defensive end, furthering the narrative (initiated by Casey) of JV being the blame for all of the team’s defensive breakdowns is tiring at this point. The eye test alone will expose JV as a fickle defender. Breaking the fact down, play by play or with defensive metrics/statistics doesn’t reveal anything that hasn’t already been brought to our attention. That same eye test will reveal to you that, the defensive system by principle constantly gives up the middle of floor; which leaves our worst defender in any scenario isolated. It gives up the 3, the most valuable and deadly shot in the modern NBA.

Personally, I’m Anti-Jonas as a player and fit on this team. The questions that rarely get asked in this regard, are why are the guard’s not fighting through screens? Where is the weak side help on the back end, whenever JV does in fact help on a guard that’s given up on a screen? Why do we never have a “safety” to stop plays in transition? Why does Derozan guard the air, and never his man in transition? Why does Lowry gamble on steals at times that take him out of the play?

The point is, there’s a lot of structural, and fundamental flaws with our defense and the defense of many of our players. It’s easy to blame the guy protecting the rim, as the possession ends there with him conceding a basket in most cases. It’s easy to put the blame on one person, when it’s a team oriented game. “We” gave up 2 points, not JV gave up 2 points. Singling out, and crucifying one player for an entire team’s defensive woes is simply unjust. Especially, when those same issues are prevalent even with said player not present on the floor.

[Clementine64]

holy **** the hate for JV is strong. Mans beasted, got the win, lets keep it moving

The OP - VanWest is one of RealGMs worst posters. He/she obsessively tries to discredit JV any chance they get. I'm a little disappointed the mods haven't recognized this and locked this thread. I don't expect a healthy debate when the argument is spawned by blindness hate.

[RaptorsNorth]

I bash JV but never when he's on his andrea like 6 to 7 game runs. You know when he plays well for only for 6 to 7 games straight before going back to his old self. If anything masai should be working the phones harder than ever before he goes back to being the inconsistent JV we know. This is the right time to sucker a team into trading for him. I feel like the reason the raptors can't move him is because they themselves get suckered in every time he goes on these runs and they start thinking "well maybe he turned a corner" You have to strike when the needle is hot and right now he's on that typical good run. Shop, shop, shop hard now before it's too late!!!!

[dhackett1565]

Remember how everyone is always talking about how you can’t hide a C defensively, because they are the last line of defence? It means an “analysis” like this will always show a large portion of points scored “because of” the C, who is the most common helper, has to deal with the best opposing rebounder, and whose man will be used as the screener in PnR most often.

[CoachD]

When will people learn that Casey is the reason JV drops all the time? He's stated multiple times over the years that they like to keep JV as close to the paint as possible defensively, even if it means allowing an open mid range shot. Maybe if our guards learned how to either A: Not die on screens or B: Just go under and at least get a semi-contest, this wouldn't be a problem

100% true

This comes DIRECTLY from the Thibs book on p and r coverage and has been in place in Toronto since the first season of Casey and Sterner running the D.

People act like JV is too slow / lazy / unwilling to go hedge hard or trap etc without understanding how the ICE or BLUE coverage is designed

[The_Hater]

When will people learn that Casey is the reason JV drops all the time? He's stated multiple times over the years that they like to keep JV as close to the paint as possible defensively, even if it means allowing an open mid range shot. Maybe if our guards learned how to either A: Not die on screens or B: Just go under and at least get a semi-contest, this wouldn't be a problem

It is amazing. Some people actually think that the players not the coaches decide what defensive schemes to play. And those same people also think that having the slowest player in the roster chase faster players 20-25 feet from the hoop is a great strategy.

[cruwinas]

As defecient as JV is on the defensive end, furthering the narrative (initiated by Casey) of JV being the blame for all of the team’s defensive breakdowns is tiring at this point. The eye test alone will expose JV as a fickle defender. Breaking the fact down, play by play or with defensive metrics/statistics doesn’t reveal anything that hasn’t already been brought to our attention. That same eye test will reveal to you that, the defensive system by principle constantly gives up the middle of floor; which leaves our worst defender in any scenario isolated. It gives up the 3, the most valuable and deadly shot in the modern NBA.

Personally, I’m Anti-Jonas as a player and fit on this team. The questions that rarely get asked in this regard, are why are the guard’s not fighting through screens? Where is the weak side help on the back end, whenever JV does in fact help on a guard that’s given up on a screen? Why do we never have a “safety” to stop plays in transition? Why does Derozan guard the air, and never his man in transition? Why does Lowry gamble on steals at times that take him out of the play?

The point is, there’s a lot of structural, and fundamental flaws with our defense and the defense of many of our players. It’s easy to blame the guy protecting the rim, as the possession ends there with him conceding a basket in most cases. It’s easy to put the blame on one person, when it’s a team oriented game. “We” gave up 2 points, not JV gave up 2 points. Singling out, and crucifying one player for an entire team’s defensive woes is simply unjust. Especially, when those same issues are prevalent even with said player not present on the floor.

I want to pin point this part. How many times I've watched DD wandering completely clueless on DD in terms WTF he should be doing???
Another thing: early in the season JV was subbed, and Casey was yapping something to him. JV responded simply: "That's not my fault." If Raptors play D certain way, blame JV for playing accordingly is just stupid.
Pacers lost at home very important game mostly because nobody was playing well, but Pacers allowed Adams to go into beasting mode. 8 or more offensive rebounds, basically, he was free to own the paint. JV is guarding the paint.
I don't want to go into deep analysis, many times I saw other guys not switching timely, not talking on D and letting easy cuts, and so on.
I wonder, why PJ Tucker didn't resign? Maybe because certain superstars of Raptors are allowed not to defend at all?

[Big Mac Biyombo]

The guy has been really good the last few games. 20/11 and +16. This is on only 12 shots.

[the_other_guy]

[Raptorstopfan]

holy **** the hate for JV is strong. Mans beasted, got the win, lets keep it moving

JV didn't beast anything. Yes he played well, still horrible on defense. If anything, DD and Ibaka won us this game...Ibaka was superb on defense. You JV crew should stop hijacking this win solely to JV.

[Sakkreth]

holy **** the hate for JV is strong. Mans beasted, got the win, lets keep it moving

JV didn't beast anything. Yes he played well, still horrible on defense. If anything, DD and Ibaka won us this game...Ibaka was superb on defense. You JV crew should stop hijacking this win solely to JV.

JV was the third best player of the game, so it's nothing spectacular. But mostly only 3 players contributed to this win, else were quite bad.

[slothrop8]

This is pretty poor logically - this kind of thing is easily done for every C in pretty much every NBA game. JV had a Drtg of 103.4 for the game which is pretty good for him. JV is a poor defender, but this is a disingenuous exercise, particularly in a game where his other contributions did significantly outweigh his defensive impact to the tune of a +15.5 Ntrg in a win.

[soloxylo]

As defecient as JV is on the defensive end, furthering the narrative (initiated by Casey) of JV being the blame for all of the team’s defensive breakdowns is tiring at this point. The eye test alone will expose JV as a fickle defender. Breaking the fact down, play by play or with defensive metrics/statistics doesn’t reveal anything that hasn’t already been brought to our attention. That same eye test will reveal to you that, the defensive system by principle constantly gives up the middle of floor; which leaves our worst defender in any scenario isolated. It gives up the 3, the most valuable and deadly shot in the modern NBA.

Personally, I’m Anti-Jonas as a player and fit on this team. The questions that rarely get asked in this regard, are why are the guard’s not fighting through screens? Where is the weak side help on the back end, whenever JV does in fact help on a guard that’s given up on a screen? Why do we never have a “safety” to stop plays in transition? Why does Derozan guard the air, and never his man in transition? Why does Lowry gamble on steals at times that take him out of the play?

The point is, there’s a lot of structural, and fundamental flaws with our defense and the defense of many of our players. It’s easy to blame the guy protecting the rim, as the possession ends there with him conceding a basket in most cases. It’s easy to put the blame on one person, when it’s a team oriented game. “We” gave up 2 points, not JV gave up 2 points. Singling out, and crucifying one player for an entire team’s defensive woes is simply unjust. Especially, when those same issues are prevalent even with said player not present on the floor.

I want to pin point this part. How many times I've watched DD wandering completely clueless on DD in terms WTF he should be doing???
Another thing: early in the season JV was subbed, and Casey was yapping something to him. JV responded simply: "That's not my fault." If Raptors play D certain way, blame JV for playing accordingly is just stupid.
Pacers lost at home very important game mostly because nobody was playing well, but Pacers allowed Adams to go into beasting mode. 8 or more offensive rebounds, basically, he was free to own the paint. JV is guarding the paint.
I don't want to go into deep analysis, many times I saw other guys not switching timely, not talking on D and letting easy cuts, and so on.
I wonder, why PJ Tucker didn't resign? Maybe because certain superstars of Raptors are allowed not to defend at all?

All of what you’ve mentioned breeds from a team culture that lacks in accountability. What always bothered me about the Tucker trade, is that it took a journeyman veteran like himself to get Derozan to communicate and exude effort on the defensive end.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[Johnny Bball]

When will people learn that Casey is the reason JV drops all the time? He's stated multiple times over the years that they like to keep JV as close to the paint as possible defensively, even if it means allowing an open mid range shot. Maybe if our guards learned how to either A: Not die on screens or B: Just go under and at least get a semi-contest, this wouldn't be a problem

100% true

This comes DIRECTLY from the Thibs book on p and r coverage and has been in place in Toronto since the first season of Casey and Sterner running the D.

People act like JV is too slow / lazy / unwilling to go hedge hard or trap etc without understanding how the ICE or BLUE coverage is designed

We started icing sideline PNR two seasons ago.

I would really like to see one quote from the team that says JV shall never hedge and will always drop too far back, because I gave never seen it. In fact I’ve seen him hedge. Our bigs and JV do ice the sideline pnr. But ICE has nothing to do with the high pick and roll which is the problem here.

Sorry but this just looks like its just becoming another excuse for JV. Like people are trying to say “its not his fault he’s bad at defending the pnr, it’s the coaches”? It’s not the coaches fault he’s damn slow right?

[pbj]

Ridiculous thread. I'm a jv hater but if you need to do all this research 2 hours after the game to dis credit JV. You gotta reevaluate you're life

This is coming from someone has 30 000 posts in almost 3 years lol

Disagree completely - he puts in some time into writing up an actual valuable piece of original analysis here which is infinitely better use of his time (and my time reading) than the 30 000 low quality posts you've made.

These kinds of threads are exactly the type of thing we need to encourage, and the type of original content that this board is seeing less and less of.