Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron

[12footrim]

How about the NBA in general being weaker..

Lebron might not be the GOAT but the NBA is in general stronger.Bigger talent pool.Better equipment.Knowledge accumulation.Better defensive and offensive systems.Life moves forward,don't stick to the past,it's lost

How was the game back then weaker? It was just a completely different game back then compared to now. Pace of play and lack of defensive intensity are the biggest changes, along with no longer being able to hand check now

How about the 10's of millions more in the player pool today for starters. How about the coaching having 20 more years of innovation and sophistication coaches have built on to what works including defenses. How about guys as big as shaq actually knowing how to shoot the damn ball out of every position today.

The league is just as defensively intense if not more so today because the floor so much more spread because everyone is skilled and can shoot and you have to cover so much more space just to keep up. By the mid 90's the league was old as well, weakened by expansion and even with the moved up 3 point line it was a lot of iso lean on your player and back them down in the post garbage. Nothing intense about that. Mostly old dudes pushing on each other is what I remember if you like to see men bodying up that time was for you.

[Porzingod]

LeBron will have the records yeah but that makes him the best player of all time?

Peyton Manning has all the QB records.. Is he the best QB of all time too?

Well shouldn't durability(stats long-term) be a pretty big factor in GOATs convo?
No one forced MJ to be weak mentally and quit for all those years.

Possibly if he would have played those years we would not be even having this argument and he would be the unquestioned GOAT but we will never know...

I'd love to hear you say MJ is mentally weak with a straight face.

I mean he played at 39 yrs old and averaged 20,6, and 5 but ok.

Sorry you just lost all credibility by saying MJ is weak mentally

He is not mentally weak per se as he has proved it but he quit... He quit on the game because he was having some issues in his head and wanted to play baseball and then returned once he understood that that was a mistake. And that was pretty weak.
If he would have played possibly we would not have thread like this but we will never know.

[dynamic duo]

lebron would have won 8+ straight with that bulls team in the 90s.

[Porzingod]

LeBron will have the records yeah but that makes him the best player of all time?

Peyton Manning has all the QB records.. Is he the best QB of all time too?

Well shouldn't durability(stats long-term) be a pretty big factor in GOATs convo?
No one forced MJ to be weak mentally and quit for all those years.

Possibly if he would have played those years we would not be even having this argument and he would be the unquestioned GOAT but we will never know...

His father was murdered... That doesn't make him mentally weak, it just means you have a really, really bad take. May want to rethink that one there.

And if we're factoring in longevity, then Kareem has more of a case as the greatest player of all time than LeBron does currently.

Well we will see about that as if LeBron continues to play as he does for a few more years Kareem might be in jeopardy.

[Lovethisgamegr]

Stats in an era with less defense .

MJ vs Lebron is a debate but forget about it for a moment.

'Era with less defense' is an absolutely false statement.Team's defense has evolved unquestionably since the 90's.Pistons ran 2 to 3 defensive systems, at most. This era Spurs, have had a defensive system for each possiple possesion.

Life evolves.Technology evolves.The game evolves.

You must be young if you think that the defense today is better than defense back then. Rules have made the defense so much harder now with not being able to hand check and the pace of play. Scottie said it himself - MJ would kill in this era.

The eras make it a completely different game. It's hard to compare because it's literally not the same game anymore

Watch on YouTube

[NBAfan3024]

isn't this old?

[Lauri_Legend]

isn't this old?

Nope. From today. Just the topic in general is old.

[so_bored]

Stats in an era with less defense .

MJ vs Lebron is a debate but forget about it for a moment.

'Era with less defense' is an absolutely false statement.Team's defense has evolved unquestionably since the 90's.Pistons ran 2 to 3 defensive systems, at most. This era Spurs, have had a defensive system for each possiple possesion.

Life evolves.Technology evolves.The game evolves.

Game has evolved to favor the offensive end tremendously. All these extreme offensive outbursts, especially from perimeter players would not be possible 20 years ago.

[Tribe]

But... But... But... 6 ringzzz

LeBron will have the records yeah but that makes him the best player of all time?

Peyton Manning has all the QB records.. Is he the best QB of all time too?

Well shouldn't durability(stats long-term) be a pretty big factor in GOATs convo?
No one forced MJ to be weak mentally and quit for all those years.

Possibly if he would have played those years we would not be even having this argument and he would be the unquestioned GOAT but we will never know...

No cause longevity isn't a skill

Weak mentally yeah okay lmaoooo

[Star-Lord]

Well shouldn't durability(stats long-term) be a pretty big factor in GOATs convo?
No one forced MJ to be weak mentally and quit for all those years.

Possibly if he would have played those years we would not be even having this argument and he would be the unquestioned GOAT but we will never know...

His father was murdered... That doesn't make him mentally weak, it just means you have a really, really bad take. May want to rethink that one there.

And if we're factoring in longevity, then Kareem has more of a case as the greatest player of all time than LeBron does currently.

This dude said MJ is weak mentally when he is known as the fiercest competitor and being mentally stronger than most players... And players who played against him tout him as mentally stronger

It's quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read in a Realgm thread...

His father gets murdered after disappearing for days, so Michael retires from basketball to pursue a career in an entirely different sport, as a way of honoring his dad and following through on a plan the two had talked about all through Mike's childhood...

He gets reamed for it, and for the next calendar year he's the butt of joke after joke about his baseball prowess as he struggles through the minor leagues, and right before the MLB strike, he actually starts to look semi decent, forcing those who derided him to swallow it a little bit...

The strike effectively ends his baseball career, so after a year and a half away he comes back to pro basketball, drops 55 on the Knicks a week later, and if it wasn't for the Shaq/Penny/Horace Grant Magic and Phil Jackson's insistence on letting Horace kill the Bulls all series, the Bulls might have gotten to the finals that year. Instead, he just dominates and wins the next three years...


LeBron's great and all, but there's no way he could have gone through all of that the way Jordan did. Dude quit on the Cavs in the middle of an elimination game against the Celtics and then bolted to the Heat to form the Superfriends.

[Tribe]

Duncan never surpassed Karl Malone statistically

Malone >>> duncan

[Porzingod]

LeBron will have the records yeah but that makes him the best player of all time?

Peyton Manning has all the QB records.. Is he the best QB of all time too?

Well shouldn't durability(stats long-term) be a pretty big factor in GOATs convo?
No one forced MJ to be weak mentally and quit for all those years.

Possibly if he would have played those years we would not be even having this argument and he would be the unquestioned GOAT but we will never know...

No cause longevity isn't a skill

Weak mentally yeah okay lmaoooo

Well if longetivity is not considered in the GOAT convos the i guess Curry is the GOAT with his 2015-2016 performance. But ringzzz yes i know.

[Tigersrule]

lebron is the GOAT and it's not going to be even close 5 years from now.

But... But... But... 6 ringzzz

LeBron will have the records yeah but that makes him the best player of all time?

Peyton Manning has all the QB records.. Is he the best QB of all time too?

Just admit it already...youre a hater lol. Literally quoting every tweet and trying to discredit Lebron in every single one of them. We get it, you dont like LeBron

[Antinomy]

The numbers argument is always laughable. The best of the best players will always put up numbers across the board if that’s what their role is.

Lebron puts up his loaded box score numbers because he has the ball in his hands every possession & he basically runs a drive & kick system to run his numbers up.

When MJ was placed in a similar role in the late 80s, he put up 33/8/8. MJ put up monster box score numbers before Phil Jackson came in & installed a system. Even Kobe put up monster assist stats when he played a similar style as Lebron.

We just saw Westbrook & Harden put up monster stats across the board last season because they played that “archangel” offense Lebron runs.

Let’s not act like MJ doesn’t have crazy numbers himself when compared to Lebron.

Fact of the matter is, Lebron will always get his numbers because he is the system on his teams. I guarantee if he actually stopped trying to be the coach & GM on his teams, he would’ve won more than the 3 titles he had to squeeze out.

No MJ propogator uses the ring argument because it’s lazy. Although I see a lot of Lebron fans trying to use that strawman.

Lebron’s GOAT argument is built on excuses.

[ropjhk]

Jordan fans will stop putting down Lebron for losing 5/8 finals when Lebron fans stop pretending that making 7 straight finals against inferior competition is some type of accomplishment that deserves more recognition than winning 6/6 finals.

[711takeover]

Well shouldn't durability(stats long-term) be a pretty big factor in GOATs convo?
No one forced MJ to be weak mentally and quit for all those years.

Possibly if he would have played those years we would not be even having this argument and he would be the unquestioned GOAT but we will never know...

I'd love to hear you say MJ is mentally weak with a straight face.

I mean he played at 39 yrs old and averaged 20,6, and 5 but ok.

Sorry you just lost all credibility by saying MJ is weak mentally

He is not mentally weak per se as he has proved it but he quit... He quit on the game because he was having some issues in his head and wanted to play baseball and then returned once he understood that that was a mistake. And that was pretty weak.
If he would have played possibly we would not have thread like this but we will never know.

Well LeBron doesn't even belong in the same sentence so this thread is pretty much irrelevant to begin with

[Slim Charlez]

I was just thinking that we need another LeBron vs. Jordan thread.

Nah Lebron vs Kobe, that’s the debate no one seems to ever want to touch

[711takeover]

But... But... But... 6 ringzzz

LeBron will have the records yeah but that makes him the best player of all time?

Peyton Manning has all the QB records.. Is he the best QB of all time too?

Just admit it already...youre a hater lol. Literally quoting every tweet and trying to discredit Lebron in every single one of them. We get it, you dont lebron

Lol ok guy

[Barnzy]

The numbers argument is always laughable. The best of the best players will always put up numbers across the board if that’s what their role is.

Lebron puts up his loaded box score numbers because he has the ball in his hands every possession & he basically runs a drive & kick system to run his numbers up.

When MJ was placed in a similar role in the late 80s, he put up 33/8/8. MJ put up monster box score numbers before Phil Jackson came in & installed a system. Even Kobe put up monster assist stats when he played a similar style as Lebron.

We just saw Westbrook & Harden put up monster stats across the board last season because they played that “archangel” offense Lebron runs.

Let’s not act like MJ doesn’t have crazy numbers himself when compared to Lebron.

Fact of the matter is, Lebron will always get his numbers because he is the system on his teams. I guarantee if he actually stopped trying to be the coach & GM on his teams, he would’ve won more than the 3 titles he had to squeeze out.

No MJ propogator uses the ring argument because it’s lazy. Although I see a lot of Lebron fans trying to use that strawman.

Lebron’s GOAT argument is built on excuses.

Might want to check your facts before you run off incorrect bs.

Just a quick check shows LeBron behind these players in usage: Harden, KP, Embiid, Russell, Giannis, Westbrook, Irving, Oladipo.

Ball in hands every possession to pump up stats? Nope. Try again.

[Kurosawa0]

I was just thinking that we need another LeBron vs. Jordan thread.

Nah Lebron vs Kobe, that’s the debate no one seems to ever want to touch

That used to be a really hot debate, but it's been kind of settled. That's why instead of LeBron vs. Kobe it's now LeBron vs. Jordan. Despite how dumb some of the conversation is, it does show you a little bit how things have changed.