Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron

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Re: Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron 

Post#101 » by Antinomy » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:01 pm

Barnzy wrote:
Antinomy wrote:The numbers argument is always laughable. The best of the best players will always put up numbers across the board if that’s what their role is.

Lebron puts up his loaded box score numbers because he has the ball in his hands every possession & he basically runs a drive & kick system to run his numbers up.

When MJ was placed in a similar role in the late 80s, he put up 33/8/8. MJ put up monster box score numbers before Phil Jackson came in & installed a system. Even Kobe put up monster assist stats when he played a similar style as Lebron.

We just saw Westbrook & Harden put up monster stats across the board last season because they played that “archangel” offense Lebron runs.

Let’s not act like MJ doesn’t have crazy numbers himself when compared to Lebron.

Fact of the matter is, Lebron will always get his numbers because he is the system on his teams. I guarantee if he actually stopped trying to be the coach & GM on his teams, he would’ve won more than the 3 titles he had to squeeze out.

No MJ propogator uses the ring argument because it’s lazy. Although I see a lot of Lebron fans trying to use that strawman.

Lebron’s GOAT argument is built on excuses.


Might want to check your facts before you run off incorrect bs.

Just a quick check shows LeBron behind these players in usage: Harden, KP, Embiid, Russell, Giannis, Westbrook, Irving, Oladipo.

Ball in hands every possession to pump up stats? Nope. Try again.


Pardon?

Did I ever specifically refer to just this year?

Do any of those other guys play for the Cavaliers?

Harden, Westbrook & Giannis are the only guys who play a similar role to Lebron, and what do ya know? They all put up loaded numbers.

Lebron’s body of work over his career shows that my post is true.

Another example of a RealGM poster throwing out an advanced stat with zero context.

Try again.
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Re: Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron 

Post#102 » by Barnzy » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:02 pm

SAS is literally one of the most annoying people on the planet.

Blabbering over the desk like a 5 year old to a well spoken, humble, well respected great like Pippen because he disagrees with him. Pippen’s opinion is worth a million times more than SAS.
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Re: Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron 

Post#103 » by Kurosawa0 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:04 pm

ropjhk wrote:Jordan fans will stop putting down Lebron for losing 5/8 finals when Lebron fans stop pretending that making 7 straight finals against inferior competition is some type of accomplishment that deserves more recognition than winning 6/6 finals.


This has always been one of the dumbest arguments to me. LeBron was drafted by an East team. Was he supposed to go West just to prove a point? People like to forget this, but the West in the 90's was also better than the East. Houston, San Antonio, Utah, Phoenix and Seattle had to go through each other and were better than virtually every team Jordan faced in the East during the title years. The best team Jordan probably faced in the East post-1991 was the 1995 Magic and what happened there?

Like I said, Jordan is my #1 too, but the "oh but LeBron plays in the East" thing is only slightly less dumb than the "3-4" crap.
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Re: Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron 

Post#104 » by Woodsanity » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:06 pm

They are 1a, 1b to me.
All NBA Chokers List

PG: Harden
SG: Demar Derozan
SF: Paul George
PF: Karl Malone
C: Embiid (Harden of Centers)
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Re: Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron 

Post#105 » by axeman23 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:08 pm

Bertrob wrote:
Hero wrote:He's right. When you consider the talent and coaching MJ had around him, as well as the significantly weaker opposition in the Finals, I think it's clear the say LeBron has definitely surpassed MJ in stats as well as overall standing.


Lebron has had great talent around him post 10
Coaching sure, the talent disparity is not huge

Yeah, because Doug Collins/PJ and Mr Potato Head/Lue/Spoelstra/Blatt are almost neck-and-neck, right? If I have to win a basketball game for my life, I know which side I'm picking the coach from... :lol:
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Re: Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron 

Post#106 » by Joker » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:12 pm

So many ways you can define who's "better" when comparing two players:
-Better career resume (favours guys like Kareem over Shaq)
-Better prime/peak (favours guys like Shaq over Kareem)
-Who you'd take on your team to win one game in a life or death scenario (this criterion disregards stats and achievements/accolades and focuses strictly on on-court impact/basketball talent and heart/clutchness).

I've seen people say Hakeem was better than Shaq, using all-around talent as the criterion.
I've seen people say Shaq was better than Hakeem, using peak dominance as the criterion.
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Re: Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron 

Post#107 » by levon » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:13 pm

Kurosawa0 wrote:Like I said, Jordan is my #1 too, but the "oh but LeBron plays in the East" thing is only slightly less dumb than the "3-4" crap.

It's 3-5. Seen it a couple times in this thread, let's get it right.
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Re: Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron 

Post#108 » by Barnzy » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:15 pm

Antinomy wrote:
Barnzy wrote:
Antinomy wrote:The numbers argument is always laughable. The best of the best players will always put up numbers across the board if that’s what their role is.

Lebron puts up his loaded box score numbers because he has the ball in his hands every possession & he basically runs a drive & kick system to run his numbers up.

When MJ was placed in a similar role in the late 80s, he put up 33/8/8. MJ put up monster box score numbers before Phil Jackson came in & installed a system. Even Kobe put up monster assist stats when he played a similar style as Lebron.

We just saw Westbrook & Harden put up monster stats across the board last season because they played that “archangel” offense Lebron runs.

Let’s not act like MJ doesn’t have crazy numbers himself when compared to Lebron.

Fact of the matter is, Lebron will always get his numbers because he is the system on his teams. I guarantee if he actually stopped trying to be the coach & GM on his teams, he would’ve won more than the 3 titles he had to squeeze out.

No MJ propogator uses the ring argument because it’s lazy. Although I see a lot of Lebron fans trying to use that strawman.

Lebron’s GOAT argument is built on excuses.


Might want to check your facts before you run off incorrect bs.

Just a quick check shows LeBron behind these players in usage: Harden, KP, Embiid, Russell, Giannis, Westbrook, Irving, Oladipo.

Ball in hands every possession to pump up stats? Nope. Try again.


Pardon?

Did I ever specifically refer to just this year?

Do any of those other guys play for the Cavaliers?

Harden, Westbrook & Giannis are the only guys who play a similar role to Lebron, and what do ya know? They all put up loaded numbers.

Lebron’s body of work over his career shows that my post is true.

Another example of a RealGM poster throwing out an advanced stat with zero context.

Try again.


You’re just upset because facts prove your opinion wrong, Buddy.

2016-2017 15th in usage
2015-2016 9th
2014-2015 8th
2013-2014 7th

Etc

If your argument had any semblance of credibility he’d be #1 in usage by a mile every single year.
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Re: Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron 

Post#109 » by Kurosawa0 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:15 pm

levon wrote:
Kurosawa0 wrote:Like I said, Jordan is my #1 too, but the "oh but LeBron plays in the East" thing is only slightly less dumb than the "3-4" crap.

It's 3-5. Seen it a couple times in this thread, let's get it right.


Like it matters. :noway:
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Re: Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron 

Post#110 » by GoGreen » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:15 pm

I'm surprised at how many think Lebron is better than MJ. I just can't, at all, agree. But I underrate Lebron compared to most.
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Re: Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron 

Post#111 » by KingFox » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:16 pm

Pippen always seemed like he had something against jordan to me. idk

and its not a discussion IMO. Lebron lost far too many times in the finals to seriously be considered on Jordans level.
Let it go already. I dont think Lebron is aspiring for this and never even has.


That was Kobe's thing
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Re: Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron 

Post#112 » by Porzingod » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:19 pm

BigCuz wrote:Pippen always seemed like he had something against jordan to me. idk

and its not a discussion IMO. Lebron lost far too many times in the finals to seriously be considered on Jordans level.
Let it go already. I dont think Lebron is aspiring for this and never even has.


That was Kobe's thing


I can agree that LeBron played like trash against Dallas and this loss cannot be erased but you are saying that you replace LeBron with Jordan lets say against GS and Cavs would come out on top? Despite LeBron having historic performances in the finals?
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Re: Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron 

Post#113 » by axeman23 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:22 pm

Master Ze wrote:
Lauri_Legend wrote:
Master Ze wrote:You do realize he could have won more rings if he didn't retire after winning the championship in 98? If Lebron wants to be crowned GOAT he has to win more than 3 rings.


I guess Bill Russell is the goat if we're counting rings...

Jordan fans love to count rings until people throw names out like Bill Russell then they back off.

It's more than just rings; we're talking skill, competition, era. What good is leading your team to the NBA finals if you don't win?

Are we really gonna crown Lebron GOAT with 3 rings under his belt on 2 teams? Jordan had 2 three-peats in one decade, you can't tell me Lebron's achievement is better than that.

Era? You mean like the "era" when there were 3 expansion drafts, diluting the league in Jordans career span, vs 1 expansion draft so far in Lebron's, bringing in 6 brand new teams in Jordan's career, vs 1 brand new team in Lebron's?
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Re: Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron 

Post#114 » by levon » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:23 pm

Kurosawa0 wrote:
levon wrote:
Kurosawa0 wrote:Like I said, Jordan is my #1 too, but the "oh but LeBron plays in the East" thing is only slightly less dumb than the "3-4" crap.

It's 3-5. Seen it a couple times in this thread, let's get it right.


Like it matters. :noway:

One of those things is an opinion, the other a fact.
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Re: Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron 

Post#115 » by Patches Perry » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:23 pm

ropjhk wrote:Jordan fans will stop putting down Lebron for losing 5/8 finals when Lebron fans stop pretending that making 7 straight finals against inferior competition is some type of accomplishment that deserves more recognition than winning 6/6 finals.


This is a deal that Jordan and LeBron fans should definitely make, in order to move towards a discussion of more substance. Both arguments are monumentally bad.
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Re: Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron 

Post#116 » by Lauri_Legend » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:25 pm

axeman23 wrote:
Master Ze wrote:
Lauri_Legend wrote:
I guess Bill Russell is the goat if we're counting rings...

Jordan fans love to count rings until people throw names out like Bill Russell then they back off.

It's more than just rings; we're talking skill, competition, era. What good is leading your team to the NBA finals if you don't win?

Are we really gonna crown Lebron GOAT with 3 rings under his belt on 2 teams? Jordan had 2 three-peats in one decade, you can't tell me Lebron's achievement is better than that.

Era? You mean like the "era" when there were 3 expansion drafts, diluting the league in Jordans career span, vs 1 expansion draft so far in Lebron's, bringing in 6 brand new teams in Jordan's career, vs 1 brand new team in Lebron's?


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Re: Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron 

Post#117 » by Joker » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:26 pm

Comparing which player is greater than another is like comparing which band or rapper is greater than another. It's so subjective. You can be a little more objective if you base it on more specific criteria, like which band was more talented, or which band was more successful in terms of sales or awards, or more versatile, or which artist had more durability/longevity. Because the more talented artist could be the less accomplished artist, and the more successful artist could have less longevity.
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Re: Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron 

Post#118 » by axeman23 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:26 pm

711takeover wrote:
Potedon wrote:
Master Ze wrote:You do realize he could have won more rings if he didn't retire after winning the championship in 98? If Lebron wants to be crowned GOAT he has to win more than 3 rings.


You do realize that Jordan quitting is a negative right? Never had the mental fortitude to withstand the NBA grind like LeBron can.


Lol Jordan as a quitter ok. Thanks for the daily laugh!

So he DIDN'T quit the game twice, BEFORE his eventual retirement? Thanks for the daily laugh, and lesson in revisionist history... :lol:
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Re: Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron 

Post#119 » by Lauri_Legend » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:26 pm

Patches Perry wrote:
ropjhk wrote:Jordan fans will stop putting down Lebron for losing 5/8 finals when Lebron fans stop pretending that making 7 straight finals against inferior competition is some type of accomplishment that deserves more recognition than winning 6/6 finals.


This is a deal that Jordan and LeBron fans should definitely make, in order to move towards a discussion of more substance. Both arguments are monumentally bad.



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Re: Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron 

Post#120 » by Antinomy » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:31 pm

Barnzy wrote:
Antinomy wrote:
Barnzy wrote:
Might want to check your facts before you run off incorrect bs.

Just a quick check shows LeBron behind these players in usage: Harden, KP, Embiid, Russell, Giannis, Westbrook, Irving, Oladipo.

Ball in hands every possession to pump up stats? Nope. Try again.


Pardon?

Did I ever specifically refer to just this year?

Do any of those other guys play for the Cavaliers?

Harden, Westbrook & Giannis are the only guys who play a similar role to Lebron, and what do ya know? They all put up loaded numbers.

Lebron’s body of work over his career shows that my post is true.

Another example of a RealGM poster throwing out an advanced stat with zero context.

Try again.


You’re just upset because facts prove your opinion wrong, Buddy.

2016-2017 15th in usage
2015-2016 9th
2014-2015 8th
2013-2014 7th

Etc

If your argument had any semblance of credibility he’d be #1 in usage by a mile every single year.


Lol. You’re literally making my argument for me :lol:

Do you know what the definition of usage rate is?....

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