How bad are we really? How watchable are we?

[dice]

Passing the ball around on the perimeter is not some great offense. ISO game is a part of the offense. What did Butler or Rose kill? Passing around the ball to get a better jumpshot for Joakim Noah?

And, BTW, players like MJ, LeBron, Harden all play(ed) a lot of iso ball. The point is about seeing your team win with an identity and not about some fancy scheme which results in 20 point losses and 15 win seasons.

Edit: I understand the importance of an offensive scheme but most of those are taken away by good/elite defenses. And, most offenses cannot adapt in the middle of a game. It is no wonder Hoiberg's offenses have been bad. It is all on paper and when implemented on the court, it fails to function.

to be fair, hoiberg for the most part hasn't had players suited to his preferred style of basketball. but even if he did I'm not sure it would matter. "play with pace" is not a viable philosophy. lots of ball movement sure seems to work as long as you've got players who can make open shots though

Agreed for the most part, except for one thing.

Definitely, on it's own just saying "play with pace" isn't really a philosophy. That being said, I think it's easier to score in today's NBA if you push the ball up the floor every chance you get instead of having Thibs calling a set play and having the PG walk the ball up the floor after every missed shot.

that's always been the case

by the way, thibs was always encouraging derrick to push the pace

Like you said, Hoiberg hasn't really had the type of roster to play the way (I think) he wants to play - spread the floor with 3pt shooters, run at every possible opportunity, and move the ball a lot on offense. That's why I don't expect him to be fired until after next season at the earliest (and probably not until his contract his up in 2 more seasons) - he hasn't had a roster that fits his style.

that makes sense IF the FO has only just realized that he can't coach the rosters they have given him

[TheCardinal20]

Bad? Historically bad, will finish with less than 15 wins (at least that was the goal, tank city baby)
Watchable? There really is no logical reason to watch anything but the game highlights. Learn a new language, take the significant other out for dinner, watch the grass grow...don't torture yourself watching this team until they luck into a superstar. It may take five years, but this is horrible basketball only a true fanatic could enjoy.

[molepharmer]

Went through all the quarters this season. Below is what the Bulls record would be if the game stopped after the 1stQ, 1st half, 3rdQ, and 4thQ (two halftime ties).

outcome...1stQ...half...3rdQ....Final
win..........12.......4.......7.........3
loss..........11......17......16.......20

So fwiw, at least they're very watchable for the first quarter and they give some hope of being competitive. Then the 2ndQ starts, ouch.

Net points-wise, by individual quarter:
1st (-24).....ugly 1sts include a -22 (SAS), -20 (OKC) [these were back-to-back games)
2nd (-113)...ugly 2nds include a -19 (Tor), -16 (OKC), -17 (Tor), -24 (GS)
3rd (-58)
4th (-62)

[League Circles]

How many of us have adjusted the parental controls this year on our TVs to prevent the kids from being exposed to this mess?

[rowseyna]

https://www.reddit.com/r/chicagobulls/comments/7icwvk/inside_scoop_blakeney_and_derrick_jones_jr_about/?st=jay3gqu5&sh=89ca5b00

[Alcatraz17]

A 4 game win-streak later....

I kinda wonder what its like to be a poster who 'doesn't watch'...missing out on all that is being discussed




yay for boxscores?

[Ice Man]

Obviously, we've been quite watchable the past 2 weeks. It is coming from a whole bunch of places -

Dunn is a better starting PG than Grant was
Grant is playing well in the backup role
Justin Holiday is hitting a few more shots.
Nwaba is playing, and playing very well.
Niko is back, and killing it
Zipser has progressed from terrible to meh
Ditto for Felicio
Valentine has had some good games

Elsewhere, Lopez has been Lopez, and Lauri hasn't been at his best, but still good enough not to drag down the team.

[waffle]

The 2 things that WERE driving me crazy even when we were losing (mentioned before)
1. That our D had huge lapses almost every game - UPDATE, MUCH BETTER recently.
2. Holiday going middle school on us - UPDATE, he's been way better. He's a decent complimentary player, but not a good focus player

And I'll add that I think Portis has been playing much much more within himself. Far fewer head slaps per game (my head slaps).

This is a developmental team and durn it, they seem to be developing.

[Warren G]

Don't forget Hoiberg outcoaching Stevens and Quinn back to back games, that helps digest the proceedings a little easier.

[Ice Man]

The 2 things that WERE driving me crazy even when we were losing (mentioned before)
1. That our D had huge lapses almost every game - UPDATE, MUCH BETTER recently.
2. Holiday going middle school on us - UPDATE, he's been way better. He's a decent complimentary player, but not a good focus player

And I'll add that I think Portis has been playing much much more within himself. Far fewer head slaps per game (my head slaps).

This is a developmental team and durn it, they seem to be developing.

Good points, and yes to your conclusion. At least over the past 2 weeks. Fred was certainly helped by getting Nwaba and Niko into the lineups, and Dunn shaking off some rust, but it has been more than that. As you point out, a lot of guys have been addressing some of their bad habits. I would add that Felicio is making fewer fouls and Zipser not taking as many awkward drives to the hoop. Dunn's turnovers are down, too.

[bulls4ever]

now we are more watchable ... Cant wait for January!

[ArizonaBullsFan]

to be fair, hoiberg for the most part hasn't had players suited to his preferred style of basketball. but even if he did I'm not sure it would matter. "play with pace" is not a viable philosophy. lots of ball movement sure seems to work as long as you've got players who can make open shots though

Agreed for the most part, except for one thing.

Definitely, on it's own just saying "play with pace" isn't really a philosophy. That being said, I think it's easier to score in today's NBA if you push the ball up the floor every chance you get instead of having Thibs calling a set play and having the PG walk the ball up the floor after every missed shot.

that's always been the case

by the way, thibs was always encouraging derrick to push the pace

Like you said, Hoiberg hasn't really had the type of roster to play the way (I think) he wants to play - spread the floor with 3pt shooters, run at every possible opportunity, and move the ball a lot on offense. That's why I don't expect him to be fired until after next season at the earliest (and probably not until his contract his up in 2 more seasons) - he hasn't had a roster that fits his style.

that makes sense IF the FO has only just realized that he can't coach the rosters they have given him

Yeah, Thibs would encourage Rose to push the pace, but if it wasn't Derrick doing a Nwaba and just flying to the hole for a dunk or layup - even 1 on 3 - you just knew we were going to run 20 seconds of offense.

There was no shooting a wide open 3pointer 4 seconds into the shot, even though the great teams have figured out that against a decent defense that is set, that 3 is quite often the best shot you are going to get.

that makes sense IF the FO has only just realized that he can't coach the rosters they have given him

I realize that we now live in an instant gratification society with zero interest in having a little patience, but when you bring in a new coach with a philosophy and style of play that is a complete 180 from the last coach whose needs you've been trying to fulfill for the last 5 years, you can't just have 15 new players in year one.

Or even year two, really. It takes a little time, unless you want to just 8 or 10 no-D Leaguers on the roster.

Year 3, now all of a sudden Hoiberg has a roster that pretty much fits his style perfectly. The ONLY player left from the roster in Thibs' last season is Niko... which makes sense, he's perfect for Hoiball.

They even had him put on a bunch of weight this season so he can play Stretch 5 - hopefully, by the ASB at the latest, RoLo is gone and it's Lauri - Niko - Portis for 96 minutes a night.

With a little Nwaba or Zipser in a small ball game if you don't want to play those 3 guys 32 minutes each. A little Felicio if you need a big, burly center.

It's not like they could move Derrick until he was an expiring, not if you wanted ANYTHING in return.

And Jimmy would have been gone 2016 summer, if they could have gotten equal value. It's not like they didn't try like hell to trade him.

Ainge (rightly) said "you ain't gettin' a Nets pick", and Thibs (like most Bulls fans) thought he could just wave his magic wand and the Thibswolves would walk right into the playoffs last season.

Thankfully, it's looking like DorfPaxGar were right about Thibs' coaching style, and MIN sucked last year as one of the most underperforming compared to expectations teams in the league (if not THE most).

Thibs got desperate and HAD to have Jimmy, and he had no more use for Lavine (or else Wiggins, thank the imaginary deity in the clouds we didn't get HIM, like most Bulls fans wantee) if he got Jimmy, and there was no way in hell he was handing the team over to a raw Dunn.

[ArizonaBullsFan]

The 2 things that WERE driving me crazy even when we were losing (mentioned before)
1. That our D had huge lapses almost every game - UPDATE, MUCH BETTER recently.
2. Holiday going middle school on us - UPDATE, he's been way better. He's a decent complimentary player, but not a good focus player

And I'll add that I think Portis has been playing much much more within himself. Far fewer head slaps per game (my head slaps).

This is a developmental team and durn it, they seem to be developing.

Good points, and yes to your conclusion. At least over the past 2 weeks. Fred was certainly helped by getting Nwaba and Niko into the lineups, and Dunn shaking off some rust, but it has been more than that. As you point out, a lot of guys have been addressing some of their bad habits. I would add that Felicio is making fewer fouls and Zipser not taking as many awkward drives to the hoop. Dunn's turnovers are down, too.

Yeah, guys somehow amazingly start changing their bad habits once they are no longer rookies and they're old enough to drink.

You are undoubtedly 100% correct that guys have been working on their games, but I'd say with a 84.24% level of certainty that they didn't just all of a sudden start working harder... but the improvement comes from hitting that 2000-2500 minute mark of NBA playing time.

It's hard to foul and take awkward drives to the hoop from the bench...

[ArizonaBullsFan]

xxxxx

[ArizonaBullsFan]

The 2 things that WERE driving me crazy even when we were losing (mentioned before)
1. That our D had huge lapses almost every game - UPDATE, MUCH BETTER recently.
2. Holiday going middle school on us - UPDATE, he's been way better. He's a decent complimentary player, but not a good focus player

And I'll add that I think Portis has been playing much much more within himself. Far fewer head slaps per game (my head slaps).

This is a developmental team and durn it, they seem to be developing.

I coached my boys' 6th grade team 2 years ago, and at that age, it's always the best player's dad who is the coach. My boy is big, the (rhymes with hunt) he calls Mom has a 6'8" dad and a 6'7" brother, but he also got their complete lack of athletic ability. Which is fine, he got his super intelligence from me, it's an awesome trade off since he wasn't going to the NBA anyway.

3 teams, they intentionally gave me the dregs of the school - week 1 the one good player I had wasn't there, and we lost 30-3 and 52-6. Because the other 2 coaches took it easy on us in the running-clock second half.

But don't insult them by comparing them to Holiday, he was much, much worse the first month and more.



Holiday has ALMOST been dare I say "good" the last few weeks. If he sticks with playing defense, being a release valve and secondary ball-handler, and shooting only OPEN 3's and running the floor, he'll be here for a few more years.

And our defensive improvement has been downright freaking stunning. We've gone for being 30th (only because there aren't 99 teams in the league) for a good bit of the season to 19th now. The change has been unbelievable.

And the Thibswolves are now tied for 26th on the year. I know that really has nothing to do with my point, but I'll point that sheet out any and every possible chance I get...

Over the last 10 games, the Bulls defense ranks SEVENTH in the entire NBA. http://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&LastNGames=10

After being 6th last year (MIN 26th). I didn't know until I just accidently saw it looking at the numbers for this post, but over the last 10 games of last season, that idiot Hoiberg coached the Bulls to the #1 defense in the NBA. 19 Points Per 100 Possessions Less Than The (#30, obviously) Thibswolves Over The Last 10 Games Of Last Season!!!!!!!

The 2 things that WERE driving me crazy even when we were losing (mentioned before)
1. That our D had huge lapses almost every game - UPDATE, MUCH BETTER recently.
2. Holiday going middle school on us - UPDATE, he's been way better. He's a decent complimentary player, but not a good focus player

And I'll add that I think Portis has been playing much much more within himself. Far fewer head slaps per game (my head slaps).

This is a developmental team and durn it, they seem to be developing.

I coached my boys' 6th grade team 2 years ago, and at that age, it's always the best player's dad who is the coach. My boy is big, the (rhymes with hunt) he calls Mom has a 6'8" dad and a 6'7" brother, but he also got their complete lack of athletic ability. Which is fine, he got his super intelligence from me, it's an awesome trade off since he wasn't going to the NBA anyway.

3 teams, they intentionally gave me the dregs of the school - week 1 the one good player I had wasn't there, and we lost 30-3 and 52-6. Because the other 2 coaches took it easy on us in the running-clock second half.

But don't insult them by comparing them to Holiday, he was much, much worse the first month and more.



Holiday has ALMOST been dare I say "good" the last few weeks. If he sticks with playing defense, being a release valve and secondary ball-handler, and shooting only OPEN 3's and running the floor, he'll be here for a few more years.

And our defensive improvement has been downright freaking stunning. We've gone for being 30th (only because there aren't 99 teams in the league) for a good bit of the season to 19th now. The change has been unbelievable.

And the Thibswolves are now tied for 26th on the year. I know that really has nothing to do with my point, but I'll point that sheet out any and every possible chance I get...

Over the last 10 games, the Bulls defense ranks SEVENTH in the entire NBA. http://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&LastNGames=10

After being 6th last year (MIN 26th). I didn't know until I just accidently saw it looking at the numbers for this post, but over the last 10 games of last season, that idiot Hoiberg coached the Bulls to the #1 defense in the NBA. 19 Points Per 100 Possessions Less Than The (#30, obviously) Thibswolves Over The Last 10 Games Of Last Season!!!!!!!

EDIT: It's certainly possible that Thibs tanked the final 10 games last season... by then, it was blatantly obvious that his defensive magic wasn't going to be anywhere remotely close to enough, and he was going to have to swallow his pride and trade for Jimmy. And he knew that the higher up into the lottery he got, it would help hold down the other players he would have to add to the trade.

[ArizonaBullsFan]

xxxxx

[Flopper]

If the Bulls don't move Niko and Rolo, they're likely good enough to play themselves out of a top 5 pick. I had very low expectations coming into the season and on a scale of 1-10 (1 = year 1 of Tim Floyd Era, 10 = 72-10 season), I probably had this team at a 2 in terms of watchablity coming into the season. They're now closer to a 5 or 6 due to the notable player improvement/upside and non-awful coaching.

[sco]

If the Bulls don't move Niko and Rolo, they're likely good enough to play themselves out of a top 5 pick. I had very low expectations coming into the season and on a scale of 1-10 (1 = year 1 of Tim Floyd Era, 10 = 72-10 season), I probably had this team at a 2 in terms of watchablity coming into the season. They're now closer to a 5 or 6 due to the notable player improvement/upside and non-awful coaching.

Totally agree. Those 2 guys have been playing at the top of their "sell high" range. Falling in love will just end badly. This team may have enough in Dunn, Lavine, Nwaba, Lauri, Bobby plus a lucky top pick and an all-star FA signing to compete, but falling with 2 good guys and failing to land the great guy (sure no guarantees) is the difference to me between competing and a return to the past few years of mediocrity with hope.

[Ice Man]

I watched last night's game again this morning. That is how watchable it was. The Bulls are playing at their absolute maximum ability, they and Fred are getting the very most out of what they have. And that is fun to watch.

[amcfad27]

These 3 guys are not NBA players and have been the reason this team has been bad.

Holiday as a lead guard is absolutely laughable and his percentages back that up. When Nwaba came back and minimized Holiday's role we started winning. Holiday at best should be a bit role player who only spaces the floor.

Notice the win streak has come when Mirotic replaced Felicio's minutes and he's been DNPCD. The Felicio contract is looking really bad. While $8 million isn't crippling it looks like a waste of resources for a non NBA player. The Portis/Mirotic combo is looking really good for the "modern NBA". I like Portis at the 5 at least offensively.

Zipser everytime he touches the ball something bad happens. While Valentine currently probably isn't an NBA starting 3, he at least has an NBA skill with his 3 point shot and relatively decent handles. He's an NBA bench player right now still with some upside.