Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron

[crazy_me_87]

So many ways you can define who's "better" when comparing two players:
-Better career resume (favours guys like Kareem over Shaq)
-Better prime/peak (favours guys like Shaq over Kareem)
-Who you'd take on your team to win one game in a life or death scenario (this criterion disregards stats and achievements/accolades and focuses strictly on on-court impact/basketball talent and heart/clutchness).

I've seen people say Hakeem was better than Shaq, using all-around talent as the criterion.
I've seen people say Shaq was better than Hakeem, using peak dominance as the criterion.

Very wise and true Post.

I recently thought about this..

Lets take a look at the most common Criteria:

Titles: tricky measurement for individual Player Greatness. And if we are really honest with ourself a pretty shallow one. Its one of those arguments you can shout people down with because it feels like a heavyweight argument. But in fact its kinda "meh"

First lets get this out of the way if you like Titles the Goat forever will be Bill Russell.. no one will ever match or surpass 11...
Now to my Point.. To count the number of Rings without any context is lazy.. and leads to possibly false ideas. To even win 1 Title alot has to go right for the Team.. health.. Coaching and Players. A GOAT canidate does not really influence all this stuff directly.
The Uncomfortable truth is: Most greats had alot of luck. Bill played on one of 3 or 4 competent Teams in the 60s .. Magic got drafted to a Team with Kareem.. with great Coaches and they drafted a 3rd HOFmer in Worthy. Bird got to the Celtics who surrounded him with basically an All Star Team. MJ and the Bulls lucked out amazingly that that weirdo Zen Coach turned out to be the GOAT Coach.. Duncan got drafted to maybe the best run Organisation of all Time. Kobe got drafted to a Team that just signed Shaq.. etc..

Stats: Wilt takes this easilly.

Peak: Shaq,MJ and Lebron share this.


I honestly have started to abandon the GOAT thing quite a bit. Its too simple.. to lazy. I have multiple GOATS now..

Best Individual Player: Lebron
Best Passer/Playmaker: Magic
Best Scorer: MJ
Best Defender: Bill
Biggest Winner: Bill
Most Allocades: Kareem and MJ

And it goes on. It also enables me to agree with most people that MJ still is the GOAT. The combination of Individual Greatness and Winning is still unmatched. But to me MJ is still not the be all end all Player. Lebron is more Impactfull. Magic the better Passer, Bill the better Defender etc..

[The4thHorseman]

It's more than just rings; we're talking skill, competition, era. What good is leading your team to the NBA finals if you don't win?

Are we really gonna crown Lebron GOAT with 3 rings under his belt on 2 teams? Jordan had 2 three-peats in one decade, you can't tell me Lebron's achievement is better than that.

Being the better player and being the better winner is two different debates. There's a thin line, but there is one.

Jordan is the better winner. 6/6 in the finals. Impressive. Amazing scorer.

But like how Scottie pointed out, Lebron just does more on the court. He's more all around. He's a better all around player which defines being the better player. You can be an amazing all around player but not win as many rings as the next guy, as in Jordan.

Kobe has more rings than Lebron, and Kobe is not better. Lebron has surpassed Kobe in almost every category imaginable and he will soon pass him in scoring too. Lebron is a complete player.

Jason Kidd was a more complete player than shaq

Therefore Kidd > shaq

Shaq was a perimeter player like Kidd, MJ and LeBron?

Bad example on your part

[nikster]

It's more than just rings; we're talking skill, competition, era. What good is leading your team to the NBA finals if you don't win?

Are we really gonna crown Lebron GOAT with 3 rings under his belt on 2 teams? Jordan had 2 three-peats in one decade, you can't tell me Lebron's achievement is better than that.

Being the better player and being the better winner is two different debates. There's a thin line, but there is one.

Jordan is the better winner. 6/6 in the finals. Impressive. Amazing scorer.

But like how Scottie pointed out, Lebron just does more on the court. He's more all around. He's a better all around player which defines being the better player. You can be an amazing all around player but not win as many rings as the next guy, as in Jordan.

Kobe has more rings than Lebron, and Kobe is not better. Lebron has surpassed Kobe in almost every category imaginable and he will soon pass him in scoring too. Lebron is a complete player.

LeBron doesn't belong in the same sentence as Jordan. You should know that as a Bulls fan or maybe you're too young to remember MJ. LeBron is a better scoring version of Pippen with the offense revolved around him. Just imagine the stats MJ would put up in today's era. Scottie said it himself - he would kill in today's era even more than he did back then.

Statistically Westbrook is the best point guard in the league.. Does that mean he's the best PG though? He fills up the stat sheet more than any other guard.

A guy who is pretty universally considered a top 5 player of all time by basketball experts doesnt even belong in the conversation for GOAT?

As for the era differences, i disagree. Everyone knows about lack of handchecking, but removing the illegal defense completely changed the game as well, freeing up the defense to play in help. Back then you could space the floor with someone who couldnt shoot 3s, and you could force an ISO and the defence couldnt send help (they had to double or stay with their man). Plenty of stars have said that illegal defense rule would make it harder for star players to score (Duncan, Shaq, McGrady etc...)

[The4thHorseman]

You do realize he could have won more rings if he didn't retire after winning the championship in 98? If Lebron wants to be crowned GOAT he has to win more than 3 rings.

You do realize that Jordan quitting is a negative right? Never had the mental fortitude to withstand the NBA grind like LeBron can.

Lol Jordan as a quitter ok. Thanks for the daily laugh!

What do you call it then what he did right in the middle of his contract and prime, right before the '94 season started?

[Kurosawa0]

It's 3-5. Seen it a couple times in this thread, let's get it right.

Like it matters.

One of those things is an opinion, the other a fact.

Very internet smart of you. You can go back to the 4chan tab now.

[levon]

Like it matters.

One of those things is an opinion, the other a fact.

Very internet smart of you. You can go back to the 4chan tab now.

Wow, hope your day gets better. Unless either of these guys are your dad, this doesn't affect you personally, I promise.

[Joker]

So many ways you can define who's "better" when comparing two players:
-Better career resume (favours guys like Kareem over Shaq)
-Better prime/peak (favours guys like Shaq over Kareem)
-Who you'd take on your team to win one game in a life or death scenario (this criterion disregards stats and achievements/accolades and focuses strictly on on-court impact/basketball talent and heart/clutchness).

I've seen people say Hakeem was better than Shaq, using all-around talent as the criterion.
I've seen people say Shaq was better than Hakeem, using peak dominance as the criterion.

Very wise and true Post.

I recently thought about this..

Lets take a look at the most common Criteria:

Titles: tricky measurement for individual Player Greatness. And if we are really honest with ourself a pretty shallow one. Its one of those arguments you can shout people down with because it feels like a heavyweight argument. But in fact its kinda "meh"

First lets get this out of the way if you like Titles the Goat forever will be Bill Russell.. no one will ever match or surpass 11...
Now to my Point.. To count the number of Rings without any context is lazy.. and leads to possibly false ideas. To even win 1 Title alot has to go right for the Team.. health.. Coaching and Players. A GOAT canidate does not really influence all this stuff directly.
The Uncomfortable truth is: Most greats had alot of luck. Bill played on one of 3 or 4 competent Teams in the 60s .. Magic got drafted to a Team with Kareem.. with great Coaches and they drafted a 3rd HOFmer in Worthy. Bird got to the Celtics who surrounded him with basically an All Star Team. MJ and the Bulls lucked out amazingly that that weirdo Zen Coach turned out to be the GOAT Coach.. Duncan got drafted to maybe the best run Organisation of all Time. Kobe got drafted to a Team that just signed Shaq.. etc..

Stats: Wilt takes this easilly.

Peak: Shaq,MJ and Lebron share this.


I honestly have started to abandon the GOAT thing quite a bit. Its too simple.. to lazy. I have multiple GOATS now..

Best Individual Player: Lebron
Best Passer/Playmaker: Magic
Best Scorer: MJ
Best Defender: Bill
Biggest Winner: Bill
Most Allocades: Kareem and MJ

And it goes on. It also enables me to agree with most people that MJ still is the GOAT. The combination of Individual Greatness and Winning is still unmatched. But to me MJ is still not the be all end all Player. Lebron is more Impactfull. Magic the better Passer, Bill the better Defender etc..

Even evaluating based on peak is fairly subjective. Does peak include titles? If that's the case, guys like T-Mac and Barkley can't be talked about, even though their peaks were historically great.

[Kurosawa0]

One of those things is an opinion, the other a fact.

Very internet smart of you. You can go back to the 4chan tab now.

Wow, hope your day gets better. Unless either of these guys are your dad, this doesn't affect you personally, I promise.

You seemed to be the one that took issue with a very minor part of this thread. Hmm, seems you might have some emotions there yourself. Someone that is so chill wouldn't care if another person was off by a digit.

[Karate Diop]

The argument will end the same every time. MJ fans will point to his 6 rings and unblemished Finals record, and cite things like "closing" ability. LBJ fans will point to his numbers, longevity, overall dominance on the court. Rinse and repeat.

Both are great, both very different players in terms of style, both right up there in the all time top 5-10 players no matter your personal bias.

The unblemished finals record is stupid. Speaking purely hypothetical a star player who goes 2-0 in the finals, all other things equal, is less accomplished than a player who goes 2-3 in the finals... Making the finals as the lead guy is an accomplishment.

[levon]

You seemed to be the one that took issue with a very minor part of this thread. Hmm, seems you might have some emotions there yourself. Someone that is so chill wouldn't care if another person was off by a digit.

Master Ze also said 3/7. My post was one of the least emotional ones in this thread, and wasn't even a criticism of you. It's also a digit that encompasses an entire year of basketball, it's not first quarter shooting numbers. You could've just said "my bad" or ignored me; you resorted to ad hominem bull ****, which is ironically the most 4chan behavior. To each their own.

[Kurosawa0]

You seemed to be the one that took issue with a very minor part of this thread. Hmm, seems you might have some emotions there yourself. Someone that is so chill wouldn't care if another person was off by a digit.

Master Ze also said 3/7. My post was one of the least emotional ones in this thread, and wasn't even a criticism of you. It's also a digit that encompasses an entire year of basketball, it's not first quarter shooting numbers. You could've just said "my bad" or ignored me; you resorted to ad hominem bull ****, which is ironically the most 4chan behavior. To each their own.

Yes, I'm sure that you were worried about missing an entire year of basketball and had no other whinny agenda there. Sure.

[dhsilv2]

Being the better player and being the better winner is two different debates. There's a thin line, but there is one.

Jordan is the better winner. 6/6 in the finals. Impressive. Amazing scorer.

But like how Scottie pointed out, Lebron just does more on the court. He's more all around. He's a better all around player which defines being the better player. You can be an amazing all around player but not win as many rings as the next guy, as in Jordan.

Kobe has more rings than Lebron, and Kobe is not better. Lebron has surpassed Kobe in almost every category imaginable and he will soon pass him in scoring too. Lebron is a complete player.

LeBron doesn't belong in the same sentence as Jordan. You should know that as a Bulls fan or maybe you're too young to remember MJ. LeBron is a better scoring version of Pippen with the offense revolved around him. Just imagine the stats MJ would put up in today's era. Scottie said it himself - he would kill in today's era even more than he did back then.

Statistically Westbrook is the best point guard in the league.. Does that mean he's the best PG though? He fills up the stat sheet more than any other guard.

Have to agree; it's always telling how no one ever mentions Jordans stint at PG where he pretty much averaged a triple double. Jordan did what was needed to win from the SG position, he was an offensive and defensive behemoth, he wasn't an unnecessary stat padder.

If the finals was out of reach for Jordan, does anyone think he'd still be chasing a triple double? Me neither.

1. It was a small sample of very few games.
2. It is talked about so much I want to blow my brains out when I hear about it. It likely is the most talked about short stretch of games in NBA history. Easily gets mentioned 100k times a day on message boards like this.

[dhsilv2]

Jordan had the better legacy (muh ringz), but LeBron is the better player (muh statz).

That's as close as I believe we can make it.

Stats in an era with less defense and more pace doesn't make you the better player lol. Also, MJ averaged 3 more PPG, 1 less RPG, and 1 less APG as a 6-6 SG compared to a 6-8 SF. I fail to see where Lebron definitively has the advantage in stats.

You might want to list all their stats, their team pace, team defensive rating, offensive rating, go year by year, compare vs the league averages in on each and every stat. Instead you picked 3 almost useless stats....

[The4thHorseman]

It's more than just rings; we're talking skill, competition, era. What good is leading your team to the NBA finals if you don't win?

Are we really gonna crown Lebron GOAT with 3 rings under his belt on 2 teams? Jordan had 2 three-peats in one decade, you can't tell me Lebron's achievement is better than that.

Being the better player and being the better winner is two different debates. There's a thin line, but there is one.

Jordan is the better winner. 6/6 in the finals. Impressive. Amazing scorer.

But like how Scottie pointed out, Lebron just does more on the court. He's more all around. He's a better all around player which defines being the better player. You can be an amazing all around player but not win as many rings as the next guy, as in Jordan.

Kobe has more rings than Lebron, and Kobe is not better. Lebron has surpassed Kobe in almost every category imaginable and he will soon pass him in scoring too. Lebron is a complete player.

LeBron doesn't belong in the same sentence as Jordan. You should know that as a Bulls fan or maybe you're too young to remember MJ. LeBron is a better scoring version of Pippen with the offense revolved around him. Just imagine the stats MJ would put up in today's era. Scottie said it himself - he would kill in today's era even more than he did back then.

Statistically Westbrook is the best point guard in the league.. Does that mean he's the best PG though? He fills up the stat sheet more than any other guard.

MJ said it himself if zone defense was allowed back when he played compared to today when it's been allowed since LeBron got into the league.

April 01, 2001|By Sam Smith.

"The subject was defense in the NBA, and Michael Jordan was speaking, although more about offense, especially his. We know few defenses could do anything about that.

But there was one that might be bothersome, the zone defense. It was the topic du jour at last month's All-Star Game, and Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2001-04-01/sports/0104010375_1_defense-recommendations-nba

[dhsilv2]

Jordan had the better legacy (muh ringz), but LeBron is the better player (muh statz).

That's as close as I believe we can make it.

Stats in an era with less defense and more pace doesn't make you the better player lol. Also, MJ averaged 3 more PPG, 1 less RPG, and 1 less APG as a 6-6 SG compared to a 6-8 SF. I fail to see where Lebron definitively has the advantage in stats.

Thank you. I keep seeing this over and over, and it gets no less confusing each time. There is no real great argument for LeBron over Jordan, statistically or otherwise.

Lebron has a significant lead in career VORP and will pass MJ in WS this year if he isn't injured. That's a pretty darn good argument there and that took 3 seconds to research.

[levon]

Also, Scottie says random **** every month. Here's him in 2015.
http://bullsnation.net/scottie-pippen-interesting-opinions-lebron-james/

Now that he's on ESPN on The Jump, I think this story was just planted to hype up tonight's national TV game. Same with the Lakers rumors.

[The4thHorseman]

MJ and it is not f close at this moment.

He just go 6/6 in The finals. His scoring ability was unmatched.
This Guy just resigned from basketball, took vacation, came back and win z 3x like it was nothing. It was epic.
Maybe Lebron is The King, and hail to the king, but mj is God.


Sent from my SM-G920F using RealGM mobile app

He came back with 17 games left in 1995 to try to win a cheap backdoor ring. Instead they lost to Orlando.

[Tribe]

Being the better player and being the better winner is two different debates. There's a thin line, but there is one.

Jordan is the better winner. 6/6 in the finals. Impressive. Amazing scorer.

But like how Scottie pointed out, Lebron just does more on the court. He's more all around. He's a better all around player which defines being the better player. You can be an amazing all around player but not win as many rings as the next guy, as in Jordan.

Kobe has more rings than Lebron, and Kobe is not better. Lebron has surpassed Kobe in almost every category imaginable and he will soon pass him in scoring too. Lebron is a complete player.

LeBron doesn't belong in the same sentence as Jordan. You should know that as a Bulls fan or maybe you're too young to remember MJ. LeBron is a better scoring version of Pippen with the offense revolved around him. Just imagine the stats MJ would put up in today's era. Scottie said it himself - he would kill in today's era even more than he did back then.

Statistically Westbrook is the best point guard in the league.. Does that mean he's the best PG though? He fills up the stat sheet more than any other guard.

MJ said it himself if zone defense was allowed back when he played compared to today when it's been allowed since LeBron got into the league.

April 01, 2001|By Sam Smith.

"The subject was defense in the NBA, and Michael Jordan was speaking, although more about offense, especially his. We know few defenses could do anything about that.

But there was one that might be bothersome, the zone defense. It was the topic du jour at last month's All-Star Game, and Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2001-04-01/sports/0104010375_1_defense-recommendations-nba

A washed up 40 year old Jordan then proceeds to re enters the league with the new rule changes and averages over 20 PPG including multiple 40+ point games

[Joker]

The funny thing about comparing stats, rings, MVP's, and accolades is that it actually tells you nothing about who would be the better, more impactful player in a hypothetical game of two players at their peak.

[711takeover]

Pippen always seemed like he had something against jordan to me. idk

and its not a discussion IMO. Lebron lost far too many times in the finals to seriously be considered on Jordans level.
Let it go already. I dont think Lebron is aspiring for this and never even has.


That was Kobe's thing

I can agree that LeBron played like trash against Dallas and this loss cannot be erased but you are saying that you replace LeBron with Jordan lets say against GS and Cavs would come out on top? Despite LeBron having historic performances in the finals?

Yes. I don't find averaging what 35 on below 40% shooting all that impressive in 2015 vs GS