Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron

[Sark]

MJ vs Lebron is a debate but forget about it for a moment.

'Era with less defense' is an absolutely false statement.Team's defense has evolved unquestionably since the 90's.Pistons ran 2 to 3 defensive systems, at most. This era Spurs, have had a defensive system for each possiple possesion.

Life evolves.Technology evolves.The game evolves.

Game has evolved to favor the offensive end tremendously. All these extreme offensive outbursts, especially from perimeter players would not be possible 20 years ago.

How can you argue these outbursts are based on changes in team defense, and not the increased reliance on 3 point shooting? For example, when Terrence Ross went off for 50 points he made 10 3 pointers. It would be unheard of to even attempt that many in the 90s

Really? Then why did Brian Shaw do it in 1993?
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199304080MIL.html

Joe Dumars in 1994.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199411080DET.html

George McCloud in 1995
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199512160DAL.html

Dennis Scott hit 8 or 9 on multiple occasions.

But keep pushing the narrative that no one ever shot a 3 pointer before 2000.

[Sasashi]

Jordan would have won EIGHT in a row if he didn't go to baseball those two years. As much as I loved those rockets teams, they would have been waxed by Jordan/Pippen in each finals. People seem to forget that Jordan wasn't only a scorer But he was also a great defensive stopper. Lebron is no doubt the more well rounded player, but overall impact, it's Jordan. Jordan also had a much better killer instinct and flat out refuses to let his teams lose.

Jordan would not have lost that finals to the mavericks like Lebron where he came up well short.

We can never get a definitive answer since their times were different, but I would take Jordan over Lebron having watched both in their primes.

[hege53190]

Jordan didn't go 3/7 in the finals.

Because he couldn't make it to them 7 times?

Yeah I mean the next time LeBron needs to go through a team as good as the Bad Boy Pistons, or Bird's Celtics will be the first time.

Has he even faced a team as good as Shaq's Magic or Zo's heat in the Eastern Conference since the Celtics aged out?

[Lovethisgamegr]

Nah apparently you can't compare rings or finals stats according to LeBron fans. It's just not fair I guess

Here we go again,
11/13.Russell is the GOAT but you can't compare rings or finals stats according to MJ's fans.It's just not fair

Actually MJ fans say you can. Russell has the most rings... doesn't mean he's better. Horry has 7 - doesn't mean he's superior to Kobe Lebron or MJ. The difference is being 6-0 vs 3-5 when comparing two top players definitely is significant enough to mention, chief.

Chief you don't just mention it, you use it as a a 'proof' that MJ is 'definetely better'.But you totally change your standards when it comes to Russel vs MJ rings and finals.

[crazy_me_87]

Lebron in Finals: 18 wins 27 losses
Jordan in Finals: 24 wins 11 losses

Just saying

Compare the point differential in Jordan’s finals opponents.

There’s a great graphic around I can’t find that illustrates it.

Basically LeBron has played historically a few of the best teams to ever play. The worst team he played was nearly the equal of the best team Jordan faced.

Edit: here you go

That graphic is baffling. People dont realise or dont want to see how good even the "lesser" of Lebrons Finals Opponents where.

The 2007 Spurs are seen as nothing special but where actually one of the best Spurs Teams ever. Duncan still close enough to his prime and Manu and Parker had entered theirs. Also one of the best Defenses ever.

The 2011 Mavs are a special case. People look at their Regular Season and think "meh" 57 Wins.. 4.2 Net Rating only Dirk that realls jumps to mind. Now let me tell you as a Mavs fan that season has burned itself into my Memory. If Butler did not go down for the Season and Dirk did not miss 9 Straight Games the Mavs could have totally been a 65+ Win Team with a Net Rating of 8 or better.
Also the Playoffs Mavs 2011 are just a different Team. They played some of the most intelligent Basketball on both ends of the court ever. And as great as Dirk was lets not forget that Jason Kidd beatifully orchestrated the Offense.. the Jet was a lethal Scorer and the Role Players played their roles to perfection. The 2011 Mavs are the example for the perfect fitting Team. Chandler was finally the Defensive Big next to Dirk. Marion was arguably the best wing defender in the NBA. Terry the best Bench Scorer. Kidd maybe the best combination of passing and defense. Then guys like Haywood,Stevenson,Peja,Barea etc all had their moments.

Oh and if you like it simple: Top 5 PF ever and top 5 PG ever ... Thats not a weak Team.

2012 Thunder are often dismissed as "Too young" but lets not forget they won 47/66 Games(58 Games any other year) And they beat a very good(50/66 Wins so 62 Wins any other season) Spurs Team before the Finals. At their Best KD, Westbrook and Harden where unstoppable.

It just shows overall its not as easy as looking at Finals Records... If MJ entered the NBA 5 years earlier along with Magic and Bird i highly doubt he would be 6/6 in the 80s.. Propably more like 2/4 or something like that(A few years the Celtics would have beaten even prime MJ before the Finals)

If you factor in context Lebrons resumee is not that lacking compared to MJ.. but i guess for many people it will always be as easy as "6/6 > 3/7"

[Ainosterhaspie]

Jordan didn't go 3/7 in the finals.

Because he couldn't make it to them 7 times?

Yeah I mean the next time LeBron needs to go through a team as good as the Bad Boy Pistons, or Bird's Celtics will be the first time.

Has he even faced a team as good as Shaq's Magic or Zo's heat in the Eastern Conference since the Celtics aged out?

Jordan never went through the Celtics to get to the finals. He was swept both times he faced them. He only got through the bad boys once in four tries and that once only happened after they'd been declining for two years.

Oddly though in many people's minds he seems to get credit for besting Bird and the Showtime Lakers.

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[711takeover]

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LeBron has won ten games and one series in the playoffs against 65+ win teams. Jordan had zero games won against 65+ win teams. LeBron has generally faced better competition in the finals. That's why the record isn't as pristine.

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True. While its not MJs fault because you play who is in front of you... his 6/6 gets less "God Like" when you consider who he beat..

MJ:

1991: An Aging Lakers Team with a 22 yo Vlade Divac beeing their 2nd best Player in the Series. Worthy was hobbled and Big Game James ironically missed Game 5. Still propably the most impressive Team on paper

1992: One Man Show Portland. Nothing special at all. Clyde and beyond that not much

1993: Barkley and Kenny where a great Duo.. they played next to no defense though much like the Suns around 2005

1996: Decent but not amazing. Payton was great and Kemp had his best year.

1997 and 1998: Stockalone where great as usual. Good Coaching.

I count 7 Hall of Famers(not counting end of Bench guys) so Hofmers who still where able to play like it. Only 2 of 6 Teams had more than 1 Hofmer.

Lebron:

2007: Spurs: Manu, Parker, Duncan. Oh and Pop

2011: Dirk and Kidd

2012: KD,Westbrook and Harden(if you have to count him as half a HOFmer)

2013: Spurs again

2014: Spurs again this time with Kahwi

2015 + 2016 GSW with Curry,Klay,Draymond

2017: Add KD to GSW

I count 12 Hofmers with no Team less than two Hofmers(or assumed HOFmers in the case of the guys still playing)

Lebron has never faced only 1 Hofmer.. let that sink in... MJ did 4 Times.
Not taking anything away from MJ.. as i said above.. not his fault. But especially the 2013 and 14 Spurs and GSW 15 onwards are on a Level MJ never had to face. He himself was on the Historical Team with more talent.. he did not have to beat it.

Why do you justify everyone of MJ's opponents to make them look worse but then casually just mention "Dirk and Kidd" and "KD, Westbrook, and Harden" lol. You truly believe a Dirk and Kidd led team would beat MJ's Bulls or is even better than the Jazz that MJ went against?

Here we go (with explanations for LeBron opponents)

1991: An Aging Lakers Team with a 22 yo Vlade Divac beeing their 2nd best Player in the Series. Worthy was hobbled and Big Game James ironically missed Game 5. Still propably the most impressive Team on paper...
MJ stat line: 31 PPG, 6.5 RPG, 11.5 APG on 55% FG, 50% 3PT, win in 5

1992: One Man Show Portland. Nothing special at all. Clyde and beyond that not much... Terry Porter averaged 21-5-7 on 52% for the 1992 Playoffs and the only player to average at least 15 ppg, 50% FG, 45% 3PT In an NBA Finals. 6 players scoring in double figures for the playoffs.
[b]MJ stat line: 36 PPG, 5 RPG, 6.5 APG on 52.6% FG, 43% 3PT, win in 6

1993: Barkley and Kenny where a great Duo.. they played next to no defense though much like the Suns around 2005...
MJ stat line: 41 PPG, 8.5 RPG, 6 APG on 51% FG, 40% 3PT, win in 6

1996: Decent but not amazing. Payton was great and Kemp had his best year... Widely regarded as best team ever. No team was beating them. Kemp averaged 23 and 10 on 55% FG (better than Dirk 2011)....
MJ stat line: 27 PPG, 5 RPG, 4 APG on 41.5% FG, 31.6% 3PT, win in 6

1997 and 1998: Stockalone where great as usual. Good Coaching
MJ Stat Line (1997):32 PPG, 7 RPG, 6 APG on 45.6% FG, 32% 3PT, win in 6
MJ Stat Line (1998): 33.5 PPG, 4 RPG, 2.5 APG, 43% FG, 31% 3PT, [b]win in 6
[/b]

MJ Finals averages (6-0): 33.6 PPG, 6 RPG, 6 APG, 48.1% FG, 36.8% 3PT, win in 6



I count 7 Hall of Famers(not counting end of Bench guys) so Hofmers who still where able to play like it. Only 2 of 6 Teams had more than 1 Hofmer.

2007: Spurs: Manu, Parker, Duncan. Oh and Pop - Great Spurs team.
LBJ Stat Line:22 PPG, 7 RPG, 6 APG on 35.6% FG and 20% 3PT, lose in 4

2011: Dirk and Kidd - Kidd as a 37 yr old PG averaging 7.9 PPG and 8.2 APG.No chance in h e l l MJ loses to them. Sorry. LeBron averages 2.2 4th quarter points per game. This loss will always be a huge blemish.
LBJ Stat Line: 17.8 PPG, 7 RPG, 7 APG on 48% FG, 32% 3PT, lose in 6

2012: KD,Westbrook and Harden(if you have to count him as half a HOFmer) - 23 yr old KD and Westbrook. 22 yr old Harden who shot 37%
LBJ Stat Line: 29 PPG, 10 RPG, 7 APG on 47% FG, 18.8% 3PT, win in 5

2013: Spurs again - Duncan led the team as a 36 yr old. Nevertheless, good team.
LBJ Stat Line: 25 PPG, 11 RPG, 7 APG on 44.7% FG, 35.3% 3PT, win in 7

2014: Spurs again this time with Kahwi - Better team than before due to Kawhi and his defense on LeBron
LBJ Stat Line: 28 PPG, 8 RPG, 4 APG on 57% FG, 52% 3PT, lose in 5

2015 + 2016 GSW with Curry,Klay,Draymond - LeBron loses Love and Kyrie and proceeds to shoot under 40%. Still a great effort but shows his inefficiencies. Valiant effort to come back from 3-1 with injuries to Bogut and Iggy with back spasms. LeBron greatly enhanced legacy with comeback win.
LBJ Stat Line (2015): 36 PPG, 13 RPG, 9 APG on 39.8% FG, 31% 3PT, lose in 6
LBJ Stat Line (2016):29.7 PPG, 11 RPG, 9 APG on 49% FG, 37% 3PT, win in 7

2017: Add KD to GSW - Lucky to not get swept. LeBron when down 3-0 says, "I'm averaging a triple-double in the Finals, so I'm pretty good'
LBJ Stat Line: 33.6 PPG, 12 RPG, 10 APG on 56% FG, 39% 3PT, lose in 5

LBJ Finals averages (3-5): 26.4 PPG, 8 RPG, 6 APG on 43% FG, 34% 3pt

MJ's performance in the finals blows away LeBron.. Really no comparison as to who performed better while on the biggest stage

[711takeover]

Because he couldn't make it to them 7 times?

Yeah I mean the next time LeBron needs to go through a team as good as the Bad Boy Pistons, or Bird's Celtics will be the first time.

Has he even faced a team as good as Shaq's Magic or Zo's heat in the Eastern Conference since the Celtics aged out?

Jordan never went through the Celtics to get to the finals. He was swept both times he faced them. He only got through the bad boys once in four tries and that once only happened after they'd been declining for two years.

Oddly though in many people's minds he seems to get credit for besting Bird and the Showtime Lakers.

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It also happened once MJ got an all star teammate in Scottie Pippen.

[711takeover]

Lebron in Finals: 18 wins 27 losses
Jordan in Finals: 24 wins 11 losses

Just saying

Compare the point differential in Jordan’s finals opponents.

There’s a great graphic around I can’t find that illustrates it.

Basically LeBron has played historically a few of the best teams to ever play. The worst team he played was nearly the equal of the best team Jordan faced.

Edit: here you go

That graphic is baffling. People dont realise or dont want to see how good even the "lesser" of Lebrons Finals Opponents where.

The 2007 Spurs are seen as nothing special but where actually one of the best Spurs Teams ever. Duncan still close enough to his prime and Manu and Parker had entered theirs. Also one of the best Defenses ever.

The 2011 Mavs are a special case. People look at their Regular Season and think "meh" 57 Wins.. 4.2 Net Rating only Dirk that realls jumps to mind. Now let me tell you as a Mavs fan that season has burned itself into my Memory. If Butler did not go down for the Season and Dirk did not miss 9 Straight Games the Mavs could have totally been a 65+ Win Team with a Net Rating of 8 or better.
Also the Playoffs Mavs 2011 are just a different Team. They played some of the most intelligent Basketball on both ends of the court ever. And as great as Dirk was lets not forget that Jason Kidd beatifully orchestrated the Offense.. the Jet was a lethal Scorer and the Role Players played their roles to perfection. The 2011 Mavs are the example for the perfect fitting Team. Chandler was finally the Defensive Big next to Dirk. Marion was arguably the best wing defender in the NBA. Terry the best Bench Scorer. Kidd maybe the best combination of passing and defense. Then guys like Haywood,Stevenson,Peja,Barea etc all had their moments.

Oh and if you like it simple: Top 5 PF ever and top 5 PG ever ... Thats not a weak Team.

2012 Thunder are often dismissed as "Too young" but lets not forget they won 47/66 Games(58 Games any other year) And they beat a very good(50/66 Wins so 62 Wins any other season) Spurs Team before the Finals. At their Best KD, Westbrook and Harden where unstoppable.

It just shows overall its not as easy as looking at Finals Records... If MJ entered the NBA 5 years earlier along with Magic and Bird i highly doubt he would be 6/6 in the 80s.. Propably more like 2/4 or something like that(A few years the Celtics would have beaten even prime MJ before the Finals)

If you factor in context Lebrons resumee is not that lacking compared to MJ.. but i guess for many people it will always be as easy as "6/6 > 3/7"

The net efficiency rating is very flawed.

For example, in 2015-2016 playoffs, the Cavs, Warriors, Spurs, Thunder, Heat,and Pacers had a higher net efficiency than any of MJ's finals opponents. You really believe the Dwayne Wade led Heat are better than any of MJ's finals opponents?

Another example, the 1996-1997 Bulls had a net efficiency of 6.8 and 1997-1998 had a rating of 7.6. So you're trying to tell me the Mavericks in 2011 were better than the MJ Bulls during their second 3 peat?

The net rating seems to increase as time goes on. I find it hard to believe that the the Blazers and Jazz are worse than the Wizards in 2015-2016 who lost in the second round lol

[perempe20]

hate this debate!

[711takeover]

Here we go again,
11/13.Russell is the GOAT but you can't compare rings or finals stats according to MJ's fans.It's just not fair

Actually MJ fans say you can. Russell has the most rings... doesn't mean he's better. Horry has 7 - doesn't mean he's superior to Kobe Lebron or MJ. The difference is being 6-0 vs 3-5 when comparing two top players definitely is significant enough to mention, chief.

Chief you don't just mention it, you use it as a a 'proof' that MJ is 'definetely better'.But you totally change your standards when it comes to Russel vs MJ rings and finals.

No because everyone knows MJ is better than Russell lol

[Sark]

Jordan has the more dominant peak and prime. LeBron has more longevity. It's like comparing a marathon runner to Usain Bolt. Each is better than the other in certain areas.

[711takeover]

Lebron in Finals: 18 wins 27 losses
Jordan in Finals: 24 wins 11 losses

Just saying

Compare the point differential in Jordan’s finals opponents.

There’s a great graphic around I can’t find that illustrates it.

Basically LeBron has played historically a few of the best teams to ever play. The worst team he played was nearly the equal of the best team Jordan faced.

Edit: here you go

I think you better understand the net efficiency rating before you post non sense like this. Do a bit of research on it and let me know if you think that all of MJ's finals opponents were worse than the 2015-2016 wizards who lost in the 2nd round. Next time you use a statistic, it's probably best to understand what you're citing

[PhilBlackson]

So similar?! What are you talking about?!

LeBron is a million times better passer, better scorer, explosive athlete, powerful and ridiculous end to end sped and was THE man everywhere he played unike Scottie "Ultimate Beta Male" Pippen.

[Ice Trae]

Those two clowns aren't even in discussion for the GOAT

#MambaOut

[SFrush]

Also, Scottie says random **** every month. Here's him in 2015.
http://bullsnation.net/scottie-pippen-interesting-opinions-lebron-james/

Now that he's on ESPN on The Jump, I think this story was just planted to hype up tonight's national TV game. Same with the Lakers rumors.

About a month or two ago he tried to compare Kobe's shooting to Steph's shooting. His takes are cringe worthy to say the least.

[MEGAQUIB]

I’ll take the guy with 6 rings and makes the shot to win the game.

[Trophy Husband]

Lets just wait till LBJ reaches 40k points. I will bet my life savings that about 80% of people will claim him as the goat by then

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[Trophy Husband]

Jordan has the more dominant peak and prime. LeBron has more longevity. It's like comparing a marathon runner to Usain Bolt. Each is better than the other in certain areas.

Actually their peaks are pretty much wash, but a huge gap in longevity favoring LBJ

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[Zeitgeister]

Well everyone knows that LeBron will not get 6 rings therefore MJ stans will always come back to this argument but then i guess Horry is one of the GOATs? Or you can pick and choose when you use the ring argument?

Sure i agree MJ was the most dominant offensive force NBA has ever seen but it's enough to see one game of LeBron(lets take as an example yesterdays game against Hawks) and how he runs the offence to conclude who is the greatest player ever. He looks like a basketball maestro. He makes dozens of passes to set up his teammates each game which just blow your mind. And if we take in to account all other things which he is doing - scoring and shooting 3pt shots with high efficiency, defense and all in all his overall impact on the game i don't see an argument really.

Best offensive player ever - MJ without an argument
Best overall player ever - LeBron

How was LeBron better overall? You know that when MJ played PG for the Bulls (50 game sample size), he averaged 33.4 PPG, 10.4 APG, and 11.2 RPG.

I feel like people romanticize Jordan way too much if they actually think Jordan was a more dynamic offensive player than LeBron. LeBron is within the same stratosphere as MJ as a scorer, I'd say MJ was better overall over the course of their careers but LeBron is way beyond MJ as a passer. Forget about the APG, they aren't comparable. Do you think Westbrook is a better passer than LeBron because he averages more assists? Actually watch them pass, look at the plays LeBron creates with his passing. LeBron is way ahead of MJ as a passer.