JV with a whopping 47 pts allowed vs. Phoenix

[vini_vidi_vici]

Just a cpl weeks ago VanWest was applauded for his thread about JVs influence in Wins (or something to that effect), a cpl weeks later hes just another JV "hater". RGM in a nutshell.

VanWest is the definitely of RGM as a poster. one day he/she is one extreme and another day he/she is another extreme.

I've had a few on here basically accuse me of being a bipolar Raptors fan. Just because I hate "narrative" discussion and like to get into nuanced points about certain aspects of our team, that doesn't mean I'm constantly changing my mind. Like, it's ok to agree with Buff and other JV fans that we're a better, more diversified offensive team when our guards look for JV more on PnR while also thinking that often lost in JV's offensive success is that he's crippling our defense on certain nights (like last night).

If it helps you to think about it another way, I lean conservative/republican on many issues but still think guns are a bad idea, and believe in one payor healthcare. It's about individual topics/issues, not pro JV vs. anti JV.

Youre just a hater.

*Except when you post good things about _____.

[Johnny Bball]

Well we can agree to disagree Lukeem.

http://www.bendhoops.com/pick-n-roll-defense/

But in all these examples of pnr defense, look at where the big stands and what he does. It’s very different than what we see. If you want to call it hedging or even anything that even impedes the ballhandlers progress, none of them involve sagging so far back as a primary means of success which is the issue.

I have in almost every post IF CASEY DOES NOT WANT VAL PLAYING THAT LOW HE SHOULD BE BENCHING HIM THE FIRST TIME HE DOES THAT - so if that is the case it is 100% vals fault and 100% caseys fault

Ok, you can believe that NBA coaches stick to what they can learn from bendhoops.com

And that there is one type of defence that is always superior (without even acknowledging that there are 3 general different ways to do that which are very different) but yet teams are constantly coming up with new ways and changing what they apply in different scenarios instead of just running the "best" one

Come on. You know that wasn’t my point and it was an example of where he plays and examples of defenses available. Whether it’s the best doesn’t matter I guess. What he’s doing though is pretty much the worst option though. I think completely benching him is extreme. We aren’t going to agree. I’m done.

[Clementine64]

Just a cpl weeks ago VanWest was applauded for his thread about JVs influence in Wins (or something to that effect), a cpl weeks later hes just another JV "hater". RGM in a nutshell.

Clearly you haven't been paying attention. VanWest has been bashing JV in every thread and any topic for ahwile now. For me he's lost all credibility when you do that.

Nah, dude is about as smart and objective as it gets on this board.

Which poster are you referring to?

[Rapcity_11]

Clearly you haven't been paying attention. VanWest has been bashing JV in every thread and any topic for ahwile now. For me he's lost all credibility when you do that.

Nah, dude is about as smart and objective as it gets on this board.

Which poster are you referring to?

VanWest.

[Clementine64]

Nah, dude is about as smart and objective as it gets on this board.

Which poster are you referring to?

VanWest.

I'd strongly disagree, but maybe my respect level for the posters here is alot more than your own.

[Sakkreth]

This is still not locked? Lul

[Tofubeque]

do me a favour and do a defensive break down of the knicks game when jv was sent to the bench and the knicks went on a 20-0 run.

That would probably read like this:

1. Turnover, fastbreak layup
2. Turnover, fastbreak layup
3. Turnover, fastbreak layup
4. Turnover, fastbreak layup
5. Turnover, fastbreak layup
6. Turnover, fastbreak layup
7. Turnover, fastbreak layup...

[Boogie!]

do me a favour and do a defensive break down of the knicks game when jv was sent to the bench and the knicks went on a 20-0 run.

That would probably read like this:

1. Turnover, fastbreak layup
2. Turnover, fastbreak layup
3. Turnover, fastbreak layup
4. Turnover, fastbreak layup
5. Turnover, fastbreak layup
6. Turnover, fastbreak layup
7. Turnover, fastbreak layup...

yeah but i wanna know who's fault it was.

[Buff]

do me a favour and do a defensive break down of the knicks game when jv was sent to the bench and the knicks went on a 20-0 run.

That would probably read like this:

1. Turnover, fastbreak layup
2. Turnover, fastbreak layup
3. Turnover, fastbreak layup
4. Turnover, fastbreak layup
5. Turnover, fastbreak layup
6. Turnover, fastbreak layup
7. Turnover, fastbreak layup...

yeah but i wanna know who's fault it was.

JV, of course, sending all the bad vibes from the bench... how can we score like that???

[verysalt]

This is still not locked? Lul

The way I understand from Moderator comments I can conclude that it's welcome to trash talk and hate players as it generates more traffic for the website.

[Harold_and_Kumar]

Disagree completely - he puts in some time into writing up an actual valuable piece of original analysis here which is infinitely better use of his time (and my time reading) than the 30 000 low quality posts you've made.

These kinds of threads are exactly the type of thing we need to encourage, and the type of original content that this board is seeing less and less of.

There's games where JV plays awful yesterday was not that night at all.

You can do this about derozan and Lowry the amount of penetration they give up.

It can simultaneously be true that:

1. You can (and should) do this for every player (DD, Lowry, etc.)
2. The information about JV is still valuable regardless

Kind of. You're applying other knowledge you may have about basketball to the statistics presented by vanwest that others may not have. So while this may be true for you, it may not be for others. And therein lies the problem.

How am I supposed to know what was posted is meaningful without any comparison? What is the median points allowed by each centre in the league? What about the median points allowed on the Raptors by position? So in and so forth.

This analysis is FAR FAR FAR away from anything resembling meaningful. You're better off using your eye test while utilizing your years of experience in watching basketball to have a better idea of what's going on. And I say this as someone with a 15 page excel file dedicated to fantasy premier league advanced stats.

Mind you, the eye test tells you the same as this data - JV isn't a great defender due to his lateral quickness and never will be great in open space or in the P&R. This "analysis" is superfluous.

Finally, while it may seem I'm **** all over vanwest I do respect the time and effort and it was probably fun for him to do regardless of its ultimate utility. It also inspired discussing so it's all good.

[Boogie!]

There's games where JV plays awful yesterday was not that night at all.

You can do this about derozan and Lowry the amount of penetration they give up.

It can simultaneously be true that:

1. You can (and should) do this for every player (DD, Lowry, etc.)
2. The information about JV is still valuable regardless

Kind of. You're applying other knowledge you may have about basketball to the statistics presented by vanwest that others may not have. So while this may be true for you, it may not be for others. And therein lies the problem.

How am I supposed to know what was posted is meaningful without any comparison? What is the median points allowed by each centre in the league? What about the median points allowed on the Raptors by position? So in and so forth.

This analysis is FAR FAR FAR away from anything resembling meaningful. You're better off using your eye test while utilizing your years of experience in watching basketball to have a better idea of what's going on. And I say this as someone with a 15 page excel file dedicated to fantasy premier league advanced stats.

Mind you, the eye test tells you the same as this data - JV isn't a great defender due to his lateral quickness and never will be great in open space or in the P&R. This "analysis" is superfluous.

Finally, while it may seem I'm **** all over vanwest I do respect the time and effort and it was probably fun for him to do regardless of its ultimate utility. It also inspired discussing so it's all good.

i dont see how it inspires discussion anymore than someone posting a thread called, "JV SUCKS" with a generic post about how slow footed and crappy of a player he is. wheres the thread on demar derozan getting blown by ad nauseum or a break down of every time serge ibaka fails to grab the rebound over the player he's guarding. it just enforces the stereotypical hater mentality. say i make a thread talking about all the missed defensive assigments demar derozan had after putting up 30 points, people would be berating me the entire thread and it would've been locked at 2 pages max.

[Harold_and_Kumar]

It can simultaneously be true that:

1. You can (and should) do this for every player (DD, Lowry, etc.)
2. The information about JV is still valuable regardless

Kind of. You're applying other knowledge you may have about basketball to the statistics presented by vanwest that others may not have. So while this may be true for you, it may not be for others. And therein lies the problem.

How am I supposed to know what was posted is meaningful without any comparison? What is the median points allowed by each centre in the league? What about the median points allowed on the Raptors by position? So in and so forth.

This analysis is FAR FAR FAR away from anything resembling meaningful. You're better off using your eye test while utilizing your years of experience in watching basketball to have a better idea of what's going on. And I say this as someone with a 15 page excel file dedicated to fantasy premier league advanced stats.

Mind you, the eye test tells you the same as this data - JV isn't a great defender due to his lateral quickness and never will be great in open space or in the P&R. This "analysis" is superfluous.

Finally, while it may seem I'm **** all over vanwest I do respect the time and effort and it was probably fun for him to do regardless of its ultimate utility. It also inspired discussing so it's all good.

i dont see how it inspires discussion anymore than someone posting a thread called, "JV SUCKS" with a generic post about how slow footed and crappy of a player he is. wheres the thread on demar derozan getting blown by ad nauseum or a break down of every time serge ibaka fails to grab the rebound over the player he's guarding. it just enforces the stereotypical hater mentality. say i make a thread talking about all the missed defensive assigments demar derozan had after putting up 30 points, people would be berating me the entire thread and it would've been locked at 2 pages max.

It did inspire discussion... it just didn't have anything to do with JV. I was referring to the fact that I was enjoying reading about P&R schemes. I kind of blanked all the JV nonsense from my head because of how meaningless it was for the reasons I mentioned.

Furthermore, I'd be down for that Derozan discussion far more than any JV one because it's an infinitely more interesting argument. JV's defense has been argued ad nauseum and I think everyone has a pretty good grasp of what he's good and bad at. On the flip, I really feel as though Derozan-stans are so singularly-focused on his scoring "accomplishments" that they are unable to see the deficiencies in his game. It's hilarious because I see people trying to rub it in that he's improved his passing and willingness to be a good teammate on the offensive end as if it wasn't the EXACT thing every "hater" had been suggesting for 5+ years! Now that he's finally trying to do it and is obviously a better player for it, I should be vindicated because my criticisms were 100% on the money!

[phanman]

Big surprise, JV has a big game yet some of the same posters still feel the need to nitpick and constantly rehash the same statements all revolving his PnR defense and how much of a negative he is out there.

Despite the fact that he had 20pts, 11reb, 1stl, on 7/12FGA(1/1 3pt) as a +16(3rd), 106DRTG(2nd) and sealed the win with a OREB and trip to the FT line. All of this coming with the circumstance of Lowry struggling yet again and the bench playing terribly.

In regards to him dropping back and not hedging, it's all the change in philosophy from the coaching/front office staff stemming from that forgetful 14/15 season ending with the sweep. All it takes is a couple google searches and you have it straight from DC and Masai:

"That’s not a hedge, that’s a high wall, what we call it a high wall,” said coach Dwane Casey after the Raptors’ win against the Minnesota Timberwolves. He was answering a question about what Jonas Valanciunas was trying to do (or not do) in the team’s pick-and-roll defense scheme — and explaining some terminology. “It shouldn’t be [a hedge]. If he did, it’s a mistake"
DEC 10 2016 - Casey https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.raptorshq.com/platform/amp/2016/12/10/13894270/toronto-raptors-jonas-valanciunas-raptors-defense-mystery

"Over Valanciunas’s first three years, the Raptors became familiar enough with his limitations that they are asking him to do far less on defence this year. He hangs back in the paint whenever possible, instead of hedging hard and trapping the ball handler.
It’s a balance. It’s an understanding of who you are, what my speed is, who I’m guarding, knowing the league, knowing the players in the league, A lot of the times, when (playing in the paint) like that, he will come up (to recover) and a guard will use his speed against him. You’ve got to understand that if I’m back, I’m going to make sure that he doesn’t get to the rim or use his hesitation (dribble to go by me).”
Jan 3 2016 - Casey
https://www.google.ca/amp/nationalpost.com/sports/basketball/nba/toronto-raptors-jonas-valanciunas-still-working-on-his-defensive-game/amp

"Last season, the Raptors would switch heavily on screens on the perimeter, asking Valanciunas to hedge out on guards in the pick-and-roll, cover a ton of ground, and generally task him with far too much reactionary play.
Ujiri spoke specifically about asking Valanciunas to hedge less and stay closer to the rim. Valanciunas is dropping back in pick-and-roll coverage, and it’s allowed him to better guard the rim and serve as baseline help on side pick-and-rolls.
I think our defensive mentality will change, Ujiri said at summer league. “Schemes will change a little bit, that protects him a little bit.
Oct 29 2015 - Masai
https://www.google.ca/amp/www.raptorsrepublic.com/2015/10/29/valanciunas-looks-comfortable-with-new-defense-in-strong-opening-performance/amp/

"The Raptors now force pick-and-rolls baseline instead of towards the middle of the floor, and let Valanciunas sag into the lane instead of hedging ball-handlers high.
He’s doing a much better job of getting down, getting in stance, challenging shots once they come in, understanding and gauging speed.
He’s much better at doing that, whereas before he kind of got into no man’s land, and you could shoot the jumpshot or get to the rim. So now, he’s doing a much better job of gauging speed, the force that the guard is coming down with, and the angles – for the most part he’s doing a much better job reading angles, especially late in games,” said Casey."
Jan 29 2016 - Casey
https://www.google.ca/search?q=casey+valanciunas+hedge&rlz=1CDGOYI_enCA767CA767&hl=en-US&prmd=inv&ei=BkszWpf_KqavjwTL7YuYDw&start=10&sa=N&biw=375&bih=647

[Johnny Bball]

i dont see how it inspires discussion anymore than someone posting a thread called, "JV SUCKS" with a generic post about how slow footed and crappy of a player he is. wheres the thread on demar derozan getting blown by ad nauseum or a break down of every time serge ibaka fails to grab the rebound over the player he's guarding. it just enforces the stereotypical hater mentality. say i make a thread talking about all the missed defensive assigments demar derozan had after putting up 30 points, people would be berating me the entire thread and it would've been locked at 2 pages max.

Thats just called a “post game thread” after any loss pretty much.

[GoSu]

This thread hit a new low for this forum. Methodology used is beyond stupid, by this - as long as you were on the floor when opponent team scored - you allowed points. Have you tried the calculation for DD against Phx? Based on this, do we come to a conclusion that our best players should have been benched this game, since they "allowed" over 100 pts?

[raptor jesus]

No matter how you slice it, JV is not a good defensive player. This isn't new, nor should it be controversial. This referendum confuses me.

[Tofubeque]

This thread hit a new low for this forum. Methodology used is beyond stupid, by this - as long as you were on the floor when opponent team scored - you allowed points. Have you tried the calculation for DD against Phx? Based on this, do we come to a conclusion that our best players should have been benched this game, since they "allowed" over 100 pts?

OP described JV's involvement in every basket he listed.

DeRozan isn't involved in nearly as many breakdowns, because he's not a centre. He's not being put in ball-screen actions every play. He's easy to hide on a corner shooter. A C is the most important defensive player on the floor, unless they're playing with Kawhi Leonard.

[mrdressup]

To be fair he wasn't back on defense to play defense for a lot of those scores. Him missing bunnies at he rim is a recipe for a trouble.

[Rapcity_11]

Which poster are you referring to?

VanWest.

I'd strongly disagree, but maybe my respect level for the posters here is alot more than your own.

Somehow I'm not surprised....