Official: Jimmy Butler, #16 to Minnesota for Lavine, Dunn, #7 - merged/Justin Patton injured

[BeatDaCavs420]

Thibs flaws will always out weight his positives

The minute thing is even worse is Minny lol

[fleet]

Please accept my condolences. You have what, 23 pg and sgs now? I truly hope it works out for you guys.

your file has information that ID's you as The Ginger Runner. That's weird.

[ArizonaBullsFan]

Please accept my condolences. You have what, 23 pg and sgs now? I truly hope it works out for you guys.

Well, you know, like the rest of the league, we need lots of players... something Thibswolves fans don't understand.

When your starters all play 33 minutes or more, and you're running an 8-man rotation out there in the first week of December, what use do you have for a bench?

Assuming the Thibswolves hold on to their playoff spot, Thibs will be down to a 5-man rotation for the playoffs.

If someone gets injured, or fouls out, or gets ejected, or dies, Thibs still won't need a bench.

[musiqsoulchild]

Overreaction time - Is it time to jump on the "Thibs is overrated" bandwagon? I always liked Thibs during his time in Chicago. I thought that the minutes thing was certainly an issue, but it was my belief that Thibs overachieved. Now, though, is it possible that Thibs is too much of an old dog stuck in his ways? If Dunn turns out to be a legit player and Thibs continues playing Jimmy, Taj, Wiggins, and KAT 40+ minutes a night (effectively running them into the ground without developing a bench), I think it's safe to say that we won't be looking back as fondly on Thibs as we might've if he'd just hung it up 2 years ago.

I think Thibs is proving that coaches shouldn't be front office executives.

That bench he assembled is not good.

Kerr (Phoenix)
SVG
Doc Rivers
Thibs
Phil

Such great coaches. Such bad GM's. Management at the higher levels is an actual aptitude. You either have it or you learn it.

[ArizonaBullsFan]

Overreaction time - Is it time to jump on the "Thibs is overrated" bandwagon? I always liked Thibs during his time in Chicago. I thought that the minutes thing was certainly an issue, but it was my belief that Thibs overachieved. Now, though, is it possible that Thibs is too much of an old dog stuck in his ways? If Dunn turns out to be a legit player and Thibs continues playing Jimmy, Taj, Wiggins, and KAT 40+ minutes a night (effectively running them into the ground without developing a bench), I think it's safe to say that we won't be looking back as fondly on Thibs as we might've if he'd just hung it up 2 years ago.

I think Thibs is proving that coaches shouldn't be front office executives.

That bench he assembled is not good.

Kerr (Phoenix)
SVG
Doc Rivers
Thibs
Phil

Such great coaches. Such bad GM's. Management at the higher levels is an actual aptitude. You either have it or you learn it.

Don't forget Zeke Thomas.

While far from a great coach, in literally his first coaching job ever, he did have a .533 winning percentage, going from 41 to 42 to 48 wins, and made the playoffs all 3 seasons when he coached a Pacers team whose roster was built by Donnie Walsh.

Yeah, it's true that they didn't live up to the level of play they had under the previous coach, some Hick From French Lick, it's also true that the team did a rebuild on the fly and replaced many of the veterans with young guys. And those young guys won more games each year, so he must have doing something right.

But then, when he was with the Knicks and had to coach the team HE built as GM, he took over a playoff team and won 33 and 23 games.

So while Zeke wasn't the coach that Kerr is or SVG or Doc or Thibs or Phil, he was soooooooooo much worse as a GM that he deserves a spot on this list IMO. Those guys were bad GMs, but did they give up the picks that turned into LMA and Noah for Eddy Curry?

Phil gets an "incomplete" as a GM, he was only there for money, didn't give a sheeeet obviously (hell, he was still sleeping with a Lakers executive), and he spent 1/2 his tenure, probably more, trying to get fired.

Another few months without getting fired when he did, he would have gone to the Garden to do this to Clyde The Glide's jersey:

[Warren G]

Remember when Thibs rookie season was taking a 41 win team and making them have the best record in the league?

Now he underachieves and runs 22 year olds into the ground and there's a legion of people making excuses for him

17-12 is underachieving? KAT just put up 30/15/5/5 on 16 shots. Who knows what he'd do if Thibs wasn't holding him back!

Where on earth is 17-12 underachieving? What is your expectation for that team?

I never said 17-12, but thanks for putting words in my mouth to prove your shaky point?

He inherited a 29 win team, his first season he finished 31-51. His teams are worse defensively than the laughingstock Bulls, who supposedly have a kindergarten teacher as a coach.

What is the point of him yelling on the sidelines all game and playing his starters playoff minutes if he isn't getting supreme defensive effort out of his players?

KAT had a monster game, he's a monster player, offensively. How does that absolve Thibs of doing a subpar coaching job over 100 games in MN?

[DuckIII]

It seems to be the rare trade where both sides win. I'd definitely do it again, if I were the bulls.

Here is my initial post and reaction to the trade from early in the thread:

Sweet. I am ecstatic. Not a great trade but they had the balls to take the best out there and rebuild.

Trust partially regained.

The Bulls "won" the trade the instant it was made simply by virtue of doing it. The FO gave the team a shot at something bigger. Picking a path instead of straddling the fence to make some meaningless playoff and marketing dollars. It was, and remains, in my book one of the most admirable strategic decisions made by the Bulls FO since the dynasty. Probably *the* most admirable since then.

That, however, is different than whether or not it will work. The early returns on the direct trade assets is good. Very good.

But just as important, or indeed more important, is the next two drafts. And it might just be my concerns in the wake of winning 4 games in a row, but the FO needs to move some veterans off this team ASAP. I've said it since before Niko returned and we started winning games. This trade was part of a larger process, and the Bulls FO needs to stick with that process with discipline.

Its too early for me to get too critical about it, and Niko can't be traded, Lopez's value likely goes up closer to February, etc. But it is critical that the Bulls end up in the top 5 of this draft. If we do something akin to what Miami did last year, even in a watered down way, its going to do genuine damage. Its a big problem.

[Indomitable]

Justin Patton was part of the deal and is now rehabbing the the D-League. He looks like he's gonna be a good defensive

Why do you believe this?

[Susan]

Remember when Thibs rookie season was taking a 41 win team and making them have the best record in the league?

Now he underachieves and runs 22 year olds into the ground and there's a legion of people making excuses for him

17-12 is underachieving? KAT just put up 30/15/5/5 on 16 shots. Who knows what he'd do if Thibs wasn't holding him back!

Where on earth is 17-12 underachieving? What is your expectation for that team?

I never said 17-12, but thanks for putting words in my mouth to prove your shaky point?

He inherited a 29 win team, his first season he finished 31-51. His teams are worse defensively than the laughingstock Bulls, who supposedly have a kindergarten teacher as a coach.

What is the point of him yelling on the sidelines all game and playing his starters playoff minutes if he isn't getting supreme defensive effort out of his players?

KAT had a monster game, he's a monster player, offensively. How does that absolve Thibs of doing a subpar coaching job over 100 games in MN?

No need to put any words in anybodies mouth. 17-12 is their record. You mention the word underachieve, Thibs has achieved a 17-12 record. Very simple.

The biggest part of KAT's stat line was the fact that he put up 5 blocks. Developing as a defensive force is going to take time for him.

To answer your minutes question, well, they're playing so much because they're a really good offensive team. The crazy thing is, people were previously saying Thibs was a one trick pony. He's only a defensive coach. Now, the Wolves are a strong offensive team and a poor defensive team and now the attack Thibs narrative is to discredit him as a defensive coach and to act as if he's completely overrated in order to justify whatever stance the FODF has at the time. The fact that they're playing so well without being dominant defensively would speak to his ability be a little more versatile than people were giving him credit for.

[gardenofsound]

Justin Patton was part of the deal and is now rehabbing the the D-League. He looks like he's gonna be a good defensive

Why do you believe this?

Watching highlights, watching some of his play in the d league. He seems to have good interior defensive instincts. Also reading insights on him from the Wolves boards.

[Warren G]

17-12 is underachieving? KAT just put up 30/15/5/5 on 16 shots. Who knows what he'd do if Thibs wasn't holding him back!

Where on earth is 17-12 underachieving? What is your expectation for that team?

I never said 17-12, but thanks for putting words in my mouth to prove your shaky point?

He inherited a 29 win team, his first season he finished 31-51. His teams are worse defensively than the laughingstock Bulls, who supposedly have a kindergarten teacher as a coach.

What is the point of him yelling on the sidelines all game and playing his starters playoff minutes if he isn't getting supreme defensive effort out of his players?

KAT had a monster game, he's a monster player, offensively. How does that absolve Thibs of doing a subpar coaching job over 100 games in MN?

No need to put any words in anybodies mouth. 17-12 is their record. You mention the word underachieve, Thibs has achieved a 17-12 record. Very simple.

The biggest part of KAT's stat line was the fact that he put up 5 blocks. Developing as a defensive force is going to take time for him.

To answer your minutes question, well, they're playing so much because they're a really good offensive team. The crazy thing is, people were previously saying Thibs was a one trick pony. He's only a defensive coach. Now, the Wolves are a strong offensive team and a poor defensive team and now the attack Thibs narrative is to discredit him as a defensive coach and to act as if he's completely overrated in order to justify whatever stance the FODF has at the time. The fact that they're playing so well without being dominant defensively would speak to his ability be a little more versatile than people were giving him credit for.

I guess I wouldn't mention his 31-51 record last year either if I was trying to convince people he was still a solid coach.

5 games above .500 in the middle of December is good, but the three teams above them who will actually make noise in the playoffs are 10, 17, 18 games above .500 and have a full deck of cards to play with, unlike Thibs 8 man Conference finals rotation in December. He doesn't develop young players, he doesn't have different gears. The teams offensive rating is in spite of his coaching, and the 4th quarter defensive rating is league worse. The man made his reputation on defense, and now you think suddenly he became D'antoni overnight?

[Susan]

I never said 17-12, but thanks for putting words in my mouth to prove your shaky point?

He inherited a 29 win team, his first season he finished 31-51. His teams are worse defensively than the laughingstock Bulls, who supposedly have a kindergarten teacher as a coach.

What is the point of him yelling on the sidelines all game and playing his starters playoff minutes if he isn't getting supreme defensive effort out of his players?

KAT had a monster game, he's a monster player, offensively. How does that absolve Thibs of doing a subpar coaching job over 100 games in MN?

No need to put any words in anybodies mouth. 17-12 is their record. You mention the word underachieve, Thibs has achieved a 17-12 record. Very simple.

The biggest part of KAT's stat line was the fact that he put up 5 blocks. Developing as a defensive force is going to take time for him.

To answer your minutes question, well, they're playing so much because they're a really good offensive team. The crazy thing is, people were previously saying Thibs was a one trick pony. He's only a defensive coach. Now, the Wolves are a strong offensive team and a poor defensive team and now the attack Thibs narrative is to discredit him as a defensive coach and to act as if he's completely overrated in order to justify whatever stance the FODF has at the time. The fact that they're playing so well without being dominant defensively would speak to his ability be a little more versatile than people were giving him credit for.

I guess I wouldn't mention his 31-51 record last year either if I was trying to convince people he was still a solid coach.

5 games above .500 in the middle of December is good, but the three teams above them who will actually make noise in the playoffs are 10, 17, 18 games above .500 and have a full deck of cards to play with, unlike Thibs 8 man Conference finals rotation in December. He doesn't develop young players, he doesn't have different gears. The teams offensive rating is in spite of his coaching, and the 4th quarter defensive rating is league worse. The man made his reputation on defense, and now you think suddenly he became D'antoni overnight?

Did Jimmy Butler develop when he was here? Did Derrick Rose get better from VDN to Thibs? Were Luol Deng's best years under Thibs? How about Joakim Noah?

Was it Marquis Teague that he didn't develop? Niko got worse once Thibs left. Tony Snell played better under Thibs than under Fred and now is playing at roughly the same level as he was under Thibs in his 4th & 5th seasons. DJ Augustine was out of the NBA when he came here and then he played extremely well under Thibs.

So, he's not on the level of the Warriors, Rockets and Spurs right now so we gotta say he's trash. Were you expecting him to bring the Wolves to those 3 teams' level?

[Warren G]

No need to put any words in anybodies mouth. 17-12 is their record. You mention the word underachieve, Thibs has achieved a 17-12 record. Very simple.

The biggest part of KAT's stat line was the fact that he put up 5 blocks. Developing as a defensive force is going to take time for him.

To answer your minutes question, well, they're playing so much because they're a really good offensive team. The crazy thing is, people were previously saying Thibs was a one trick pony. He's only a defensive coach. Now, the Wolves are a strong offensive team and a poor defensive team and now the attack Thibs narrative is to discredit him as a defensive coach and to act as if he's completely overrated in order to justify whatever stance the FODF has at the time. The fact that they're playing so well without being dominant defensively would speak to his ability be a little more versatile than people were giving him credit for.

I guess I wouldn't mention his 31-51 record last year either if I was trying to convince people he was still a solid coach.

5 games above .500 in the middle of December is good, but the three teams above them who will actually make noise in the playoffs are 10, 17, 18 games above .500 and have a full deck of cards to play with, unlike Thibs 8 man Conference finals rotation in December. He doesn't develop young players, he doesn't have different gears. The teams offensive rating is in spite of his coaching, and the 4th quarter defensive rating is league worse. The man made his reputation on defense, and now you think suddenly he became D'antoni overnight?

Did Jimmy Butler develop when he was here? Did Derrick Rose get better from VDN to Thibs? Were Luol Deng's best years under Thibs? How about Joakim Noah?

Was it Marquis Teague that he didn't develop? Niko got worse once Thibs left. Tony Snell played better under Thibs than under Fred and now is playing at roughly the same level as he was under Thibs in his 4th & 5th seasons. DJ Augustine was out of the NBA when he came here and then he played extremely well under Thibs.

So, he's not on the level of the Warriors, Rockets and Spurs right now so we gotta say he's trash. Were you expecting him to bring the Wolves to those 3 teams' level?

Jimmy didn't play under Thibs his rookie season until Luol Deng was literally on his hospital bed and he was forced to use him.

Derrick played one year under VDN before having Thibs as his coach, you want Thibs to take credit for a guy getting better than he was his first year in the league? Seriously, is this what you believe?

Deng and Noah were grinded into dust by Thibodeau, guys may look good for 3-4 seasons if you use them all out, you will certainly get their very best, how are those two looking now? Noah can't get off the bench in NY and same for Deng in LA.

Can you answer me why Minnesota's defense is still so bad if you're presenting me with these miraculous coaching feats? He got a DPOY and MVP balloting run from Noah, why can't he make KAT into a passable defender? Not even a good or elite defender, but simply average? He's had 100 games to work with a guy fellow GMs voted as the guy they'd choose first if starting a franchise, he can make DJ Augustine into something, why can't he make KAT into a non-negative defender?

[Lauri_Legend]

Per Wiretap, Pelicans offered the Bulls for Jimmy Butler. With the Bulls declining, makes you wonder if they threw in Cousins in that offer.

[Hangtime84]

Per Wiretap, Hornets offered the Bulls for Jimmy Butler. With the Bulls declining, makes you wonder if they threw in Cousins in that offer.

wrong team Pelcians

[TheStig]

It seems to be the rare trade where both sides win. I'd definitely do it again, if I were the bulls.

Here is my initial post and reaction to the trade from early in the thread:

Sweet. I am ecstatic. Not a great trade but they had the balls to take the best out there and rebuild.

Trust partially regained.

The Bulls "won" the trade the instant it was made simply by virtue of doing it. The FO gave the team a shot at something bigger. Picking a path instead of straddling the fence to make some meaningless playoff and marketing dollars. It was, and remains, in my book one of the most admirable strategic decisions made by the Bulls FO since the dynasty. Probably *the* most admirable since then.

That, however, is different than whether or not it will work. The early returns on the direct trade assets is good. Very good.

But just as important, or indeed more important, is the next two drafts. And it might just be my concerns in the wake of winning 4 games in a row, but the FO needs to move some veterans off this team ASAP. I've said it since before Niko returned and we started winning games. This trade was part of a larger process, and the Bulls FO needs to stick with that process with discipline.

Its too early for me to get too critical about it, and Niko can't be traded, Lopez's value likely goes up closer to February, etc. But it is critical that the Bulls end up in the top 5 of this draft. If we do something akin to what Miami did last year, even in a watered down way, its going to do genuine damage. Its a big problem.

I don't think that's a valid point. You need to separate the picking a path and the deal. The Bulls could have made a worse deal and still won based on your theory. The trade needs to be evaluated on it's own merits and it's important to remember Jimmy wasn't an expiring like some of the other guys given away that people compare.

[Indomitable]

I'm bumping this thread. It seems after a four game win streak a trade that many people hated has somehow become too good and threatens the tank. A lot of people talking out of both sides of their mouth when looking at this thread then the game thread viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1647824#start_here. Hell in this thread you'll probably find my overreaction to it and I'll be glad to admit I was way off.

Luckily I have been pro trade jimmy.

[Susan]

I guess I wouldn't mention his 31-51 record last year either if I was trying to convince people he was still a solid coach.

5 games above .500 in the middle of December is good, but the three teams above them who will actually make noise in the playoffs are 10, 17, 18 games above .500 and have a full deck of cards to play with, unlike Thibs 8 man Conference finals rotation in December. He doesn't develop young players, he doesn't have different gears. The teams offensive rating is in spite of his coaching, and the 4th quarter defensive rating is league worse. The man made his reputation on defense, and now you think suddenly he became D'antoni overnight?

Did Jimmy Butler develop when he was here? Did Derrick Rose get better from VDN to Thibs? Were Luol Deng's best years under Thibs? How about Joakim Noah?

Was it Marquis Teague that he didn't develop? Niko got worse once Thibs left. Tony Snell played better under Thibs than under Fred and now is playing at roughly the same level as he was under Thibs in his 4th & 5th seasons. DJ Augustine was out of the NBA when he came here and then he played extremely well under Thibs.

So, he's not on the level of the Warriors, Rockets and Spurs right now so we gotta say he's trash. Were you expecting him to bring the Wolves to those 3 teams' level?

Jimmy didn't play under Thibs his rookie season until Luol Deng was literally on his hospital bed and he was forced to use him.

Derrick played one year under VDN before having Thibs as his coach, you want Thibs to take credit for a guy getting better than he was his first year in the league? Seriously, is this what you believe?

Deng and Noah were grinded into dust by Thibodeau, guys may look good for 3-4 seasons if you use them all out, you will certainly get their very best, how are those two looking now? Noah can't get off the bench in NY and same for Deng in LA.

Can you answer me why Minnesota's defense is still so bad if you're presenting me with these miraculous coaching feats? He got a DPOY and MVP balloting run from Noah, why can't he make KAT into a passable defender? Not even a good or elite defender, but simply average? He's had 100 games to work with a guy fellow GMs voted as the guy they'd choose first if starting a franchise, he can make DJ Augustine into something, why can't he make KAT into a non-negative defender?

Giving rookies entitelment minutes isn't developing them sometimes. Having Jimmy earn his role didn't stunt him in the least bit and he was able to develop into an all-star. We have no idea if earning it was very helpful in his development or not but the fact remains, under Thibs watch, he developed. His rookie year he had no training camp and the Bulls were a title contender.

Derrick was under VDN for TWO years before Thibs came. Derrick had a significant jump once Thibs came here.

Deng and Noah both fell apart after 30. This is common in the NBA. They had their best years under Thibs without a doubt.

KAT is still young. Noah had an elite defensive pedigree coming into the NBA and was able to develop into a great defender here. It's been 100 games, KAT has to commit to it himself and we'll see what happens. Getting a player who's been praised his entire life to buy in might be a harder task than what you are imagining.

[Ice Man]

Side note, but still relevant to Butler ... the Wolves announcers last night were discussing a stat I hadn't heard before. Free throw ratio. It is number of free throws taken/number of shots taken. So if you get 4 free throws in the game and 16 shots taken, you have a ratio of 25%. Higher is better, of course.

The announcer claimed that 3 point shooting % and FT ratio are two key figures to look at when projecting young players' development. Now comes the interesting part. This year's FT ratios, for some of the top scorers -

Harden 40%
Giannis 38%
LBJ 30%
Curry 38%
Lillard 38%

Those are all very good numbers. Compare to more typical players, say the Bulls guards -

Holiday 19%
Valentine 4% (yikes)
Dunn 14%
Grant 34% (OK there)

Then there is Nwaba, not a typical player, he is at 55% (!).

Butler's rookie year he was at ... 70% (!!!).

Now that was unsustainable, he has always been high since then of course, but not *that* high.

To my knowledge, none of us understood the signal at that time. It was right there, in front of us, and we were all writing about how he was a good pick for a #30 selection, looked like he would stick in the league as a glue rotation player.

[Warren G]

So in short Thibs is amazing at getting the most out of his players, unless he has a massive star on his hands and then he can't do anything about it because gosh darn it, a hard task is unassailable for Tommy Thibs!

It's actually not common in the NBA for a guy who is getting MVP ballots to be unplayable 4 years later at the age of 32. To put this in perspective, old men who were at the end of Thibs bench, Kurt Thomas and Nazr Mohammed, joined the bulls at the ages of 38 (Kurt) and 35 (Nazr), Kurt was out of the league at 40 and Nazr at 38.

Those minutes that would've gone to Jimmy wouldn't have been "entitlement minutes", they'd be developmental, to see what Jimmy became it's almost criminal that he didn't accelerate his development sooner. Keep in mind Jimmy was a 4 year college player, this wasn't a raw athlete who spent one year in school.

It's all good though, wait for the first injury to hit (this was a guy who saw Lavine writhing in pain on the floor then kept him in another 7 minutes).