Game 30: Toronto Raptors (17-8) @ Phoenix Suns (9-20), Wednesday, December 13th, 7PM, MST

[lilfishi22]

It's just absurd to log in here and read so many fans who are so desperate to get that 8th pick. Yeah, let's as fans get a bunch of Jared Dudleys. That is exciting to watch for our future. Dudley plays simply to show the youngsters and help them grow. That is his only purpose. He is not here to win games. He has said he wants to be here to rebuild and lead the youth. He doesn't want to be traded because he believes in said youth. And yet, we have fans here who believe in Dudley and think he is smart but won't take his word for that, and have a problem with the youngsters playing even though Dudley has no problem with it.

Who said Dudley was brought in to win games? Nobody said we want him to play more minutes. As I said, Dudley getting PT is less to do with him deserving PT and more to do with our PF rotation not playing up to NBA standards. I wish he doesn't have to play a single minute and only plays the mentor role from the bench. But Dudley plays basketball the right way and to show the guys on the floor and on the bench what needs to be done to win games. But I'm guessing his smart play leading to potential wins goes against your tanking philosophy.

Also our draft hit rate is arguably as good in the top 5 as in the 8-14 range.

[NavLDO]

Monroe isnt that bad. I hate his game like TJ, but <shrugs> it’s effective although not exciting.

Green font man...that's my point. He's not that bad, and is what, 8 years younger than Chandler???

I got it. I was agreeing with you.

Ah...ok...it looked like to me that you thought that I thought that Monroe was really bad. Sorry. As you know, I'm easily confused...

[NavLDO]

Stupid logic rating skill based on 10 college games. These guys are athletic freaks that dominated in high school because of their size and quickness and the suckiness of most prep players. They lose some of that advantage in college and then it goes completely away in the NBA. Measure their skills based on simple stuff like shooting free throws and three point percentages. For the most part, it is substandard for these so-called "generational" players you talk about. Wipe the drool off your chin and start looking at the reality of the situation with these 18 year old players. It's nothing but hype and the Suns are paying the price right now for athletes with "potential". Dudley the least athletic player on our teams is far, far better than Bender or Chriss at PF.

I keep seeing posters say this, but what exactly are you basing this off of? He's played 12 games, and outside of 3 of them, where he shot 8 of 12 FG% (6 of 8 3PT%), he' actually put up some pretty dismal numbers...like 32% FG% and 25% 3PT% in the other 75% of his games. Dudley has not looked all that great this year, either, and Bender has made some strides. Not to mention, Dudley was already 24 before started to look halfway decent, so Bender and Chriss still have 4 years before we need to worry...

Eye test says the offense and defense both run better when Dudley is on the floor. His three point shooting is more than .400 and his play making skills are really good (5+ assists per 36 minutes). He stays in front his man on defense and doesn't lose them like Chriss does. -- But not nearly as well as Bender can...
He is confidant unlike Bender who is hesitant. -- Yet Chriss has 'confidence' for days...that's never been is problem, it's BBIQ...

He gives the other players guidance and correction on the floor about playing within the system for both defense and offense. Hell even fans from other teams come over here asking what would we want for Dudley. Really what do you see that makes you think Bender or Chriss is better than Dudley? -- Blks and TRB

If we have to wait more than one year for Bender or Chriss then we need to be worrying. If they haven't figured it out and show improvement by the summer of 2019 then we should be trading them for whatever we can get.

Well, of course a veteran is going to have a better feel for the game...instinctively know where to be and when...be able to help guide younger players...but what you are describing is a 'coach'...I'm talking about pure PF play.

And touting his .400 3PT shooting, when that is based upon 25% of his games...is rather misleading. He's barely .200 his other 75% of games. Whereas Bender's .351 has actually decreased over the past 5 games; he was closer to .370 on the season on 25 games, before hitting a mini-slump.

As far as trading in 2019, I think the better option would be to trade one NOW, so we can actually concentrate on developing one, instead of two, so be it Bender, or be it Chriss...(likely Bender) can know that they are the future PF of the Suns. And yes, I think that makes a difference in their development.

[NavLDO]

Stupid logic rating skill based on 10 college games. These guys are athletic freaks that dominated in high school because of their size and quickness and the suckiness of most prep players. They lose some of that advantage in college and then it goes completely away in the NBA. Measure their skills based on simple stuff like shooting free throws and three point percentages. For the most part, it is substandard for these so-called "generational" players you talk about. Wipe the drool off your chin and start looking at the reality of the situation with these 18 year old players. It's nothing but hype and the Suns are paying the price right now for athletes with "potential". Dudley the least athletic player on our teams is far, far better than Bender or Chriss at PF.

I keep seeing posters say this, but what exactly are you basing this off of? He's played 12 games, and outside of 3 of them, where he shot 8 of 12 FG% (6 of 8 3PT%), he' actually put up some pretty dismal numbers...like 32% FG% and 25% 3PT% in the other 75% of his games. Dudley has not looked all that great this year, either, and Bender has made some strides. Not to mention, Dudley was already 24 before started to look halfway decent, so Bender and Chriss still have 4 years before we need to worry...

Dudley has never been a stat line player. He won't light up the box score or anything but his on court impact is very apparent the moment he steps on. He makes the right plays, draws fouls, draws charges, makes the right passes and his leadership is vocal. And the FACT that he does play, often times in place of Bender and Chriss shows not only his impact but also just the lack of consistency from those young guys. I've said this before, if Chriss or Bender are not playing because of an overweight 32yo unathletic SF, that says more about those two than it does Dudley.

In the last 9 game stretch where Dudley played 7 of them, he's averaged 4.6/2.6/2.7 in 16mpg, that's around 9/6/6 per36. Nothing crazy but shows he's doing a little bit of everything. In those 7 games, he's also a marginally positive plus/minus player.

In that same 9 game stretch (not including the last 2 where Dudley didn't play), Chriss averaged a decent 6.6/4.6/1 in 20mpg and with a+2.2 plus/minus. Per36 that's 12/8/2

Bender is the one that's been stinking it up as of late. He averaged a paltry 2.6/1.4/0.8 in the same amount of PT as Dudley. That's a pathetic 6/3/2 per36...also logged in a -8.3 plus/minus

The reason Dudley plays is because he's reliable. Reliable not in putting up points but reliable in playing basketball the right way and making right plays out there. Chriss and Bender are often productive not because they know how to play but because their talent carries them. Chriss takes simple shots which go in. Bender hits his 3's sometimes. Doesn't require a lot of BBIQ to take shots. It's the other aspect of the game like rebounding, team defense and passing, that's where Dudley's understanding of the game makes him a reliable player on the court.

Well, like I mentioned in my response to Bigfoot, Dudley may do a lot of things a savvy vet would do, but if you are trying to use that to say that Dudley is better than the two 20YOs with less than a season and a half of experience, well, that's like saying water is wet. Of course he's more Savvy...of course he knows where to be more than the other two...how to direct, etc. So if that is your idea of 'playing better', than ok, I agree.

But as a pure PF, making rebounds, Blks, Pts...not so much. This season Dudley has been a 'dud' in 75% of his games...

[bigfoot]

Why is age emphasized so much here? Yeah, we have a lot of young players but they're just not any good. And the fact that a washed up and out of shape Dudley is better than them, says a lot.

Age is just an excuse by one particular poster who thinks our two PFs are going to be studs if we just give them until they are 25-26. You know another 5-6 years and we will know what we have with Bender and Chriss. Repeated comments like Butler and Curry were not considered stars until they were 26 has been the repeated logic used time and time again. All the while ignoring history about young power forwards who have excelled in the first two seasons.

Right now I'm looking at Kyle Kuzma shaking my head and saying how did the Laker manage to get a nice 22 year old rookie PF who is a star in the making at 22.

[AtheJ415]

It's just absurd to log in here and read so many fans who are so desperate to get that 8th pick. Yeah, let's as fans get a bunch of Jared Dudleys. That is exciting to watch for our future. Dudley plays simply to show the youngsters and help them grow. That is his only purpose. He is not here to win games. He has said he wants to be here to rebuild and lead the youth. He doesn't want to be traded because he believes in said youth. And yet, we have fans here who believe in Dudley and think he is smart but won't take his word for that, and have a problem with the youngsters playing even though Dudley has no problem with it.

Who said Dudley was brought in to win games? Nobody said we want him to play more minutes. As I said, Dudley getting PT is less to do with him deserving PT and more to do with our PF rotation not playing up to NBA standards. I wish he doesn't have to play a single minute and only plays the mentor role from the bench. But Dudley plays basketball the right way and to show the guys on the floor and on the bench what needs to be done to win games. But I'm guessing his smart play leading to potential wins goes against your tanking philosophy.

Also our draft hit rate is arguably as good in the top 5 as in the 8-14 range.

You're saying the same thing and trying to frame it as if it is difference. You say Dudley is getting minutes because our PF rotation is not playing up to NBA standards, and that Dudley deserves minutes because he is better than the others. So how on earth are you arguing that you are not saying Dudley deserves the PT because he is helping win more games than the others? Those statements are dichotomous, unless you are saying that somehow playing the better player is not related to winning games. He can mentor in practice, on the bench, and yes, also in games, but the best way to mentor is to play WITH said player, not to play INSTEAD of said player.

Draft hit rate for our team is irrelevant. The point of the draft is to get the most sure thing you can, which occurs at the very top of the draft. Due to the lottery, the worse you do the better odds you have of getting the top of the draft. Get the 1st pick and the hit rate is much higher than the 2nd pick and so on. If you truly believe you would rather have the 8-13 pick than the 1-5, or that it is irrelevant, then okay, but you are literally ignoring the entire history of the draft.

[AtheJ415]

Why is age emphasized so much here? Yeah, we have a lot of young players but they're just not any good. And the fact that a washed up and out of shape Dudley is better than them, says a lot.

Age is just an excuse by one particular poster who thinks our two PFs are going to be studs if we just give them until they are 25-26. You know another 5-6 years and we will know what we have with Bender and Chriss. Repeated comments like Butler and Curry were not considered stars until they were 26 has been the repeated logic used time and time again. All the while ignoring history about young power forwards who have excelled in the first two seasons.

Right now I'm looking at Kyle Kuzma shaking my head and saying how did the Laker manage to get a nice 22 year old rookie PF who is a star in the making at 22.

Age is literally one of the most accurate ways to project player ability and upside. Production AT AGE is a key metric every organization in the entire league uses. Please point me to the stats you ran at NASA that show the irrelevance of this. I will wait. It is HIGHLY MORE RELEVANT than experience, though both matter. You simply cling to experience as everything. Well, guess what, Mike James is better than a lot of the PGs who have been MVP candidates as a rookie. Why is he not a franchise cornerstone? That's right, because he's 27 freaking years old.

Kyle Kuzma is 22 by the way. He played 3 years at Utah.

[RaisingArizona]

Why is age emphasized so much here? Yeah, we have a lot of young players but they're just not any good. And the fact that a washed up and out of shape Dudley is better than them, says a lot.

Age is just an excuse by one particular poster who thinks our two PFs are going to be studs if we just give them until they are 25-26. You know another 5-6 years and we will know what we have with Bender and Chriss. Repeated comments like Butler and Curry were not considered stars until they were 26 has been the repeated logic used time and time again. All the while ignoring history about young power forwards who have excelled in the first two seasons.

Right now I'm looking at Kyle Kuzma shaking my head and saying how did the Laker manage to get a nice 22 year old rookie PF who is a star in the making at 22.

Age is literally one of the most accurate ways to project player ability and upside. Production AT AGE is a key metric every organization in the entire league uses. Please point me to the stats you ran at NASA that show the irrelevance of this. I will wait. It is HIGHLY MORE RELEVANT than experience, though both matter. You simply cling to experience as everything. Well, guess what, Mike James is better than a lot of the PGs who have been MVP candidates as a rookie. Why is he not a franchise cornerstone? That's right, because he's 27 freaking years old.

Kyle Kuzma is 22 by the way. He played 3 years at Utah.

Kuzma is a year and a half older but is almost tripling JJ in PER. You can defend it till the cows come home but so far, JJ has been a huge disappointment. I don't care that he's 20. He was drafted 4 in a stacked draft and has an opportunity to play starter minutes every night. Stop making excuses for our player's bad play.

[bigfoot]

It's just absurd to log in here and read so many fans who are so desperate to get that 8th pick. Yeah, let's as fans get a bunch of Jared Dudleys. That is exciting to watch for our future. Dudley plays simply to show the youngsters and help them grow. That is his only purpose. He is not here to win games. He has said he wants to be here to rebuild and lead the youth. He doesn't want to be traded because he believes in said youth. And yet, we have fans here who believe in Dudley and think he is smart but won't take his word for that, and have a problem with the youngsters playing even though Dudley has no problem with it.

Who said Dudley was brought in to win games? Nobody said we want him to play more minutes. As I said, Dudley getting PT is less to do with him deserving PT and more to do with our PF rotation not playing up to NBA standards. I wish he doesn't have to play a single minute and only plays the mentor role from the bench. But Dudley plays basketball the right way and to show the guys on the floor and on the bench what needs to be done to win games. But I'm guessing his smart play leading to potential wins goes against your tanking philosophy.

Also our draft hit rate is arguably as good in the top 5 as in the 8-14 range.

You're saying the same thing and trying to frame it as if it is difference. You say Dudley is getting minutes because our PF rotation is not playing up to NBA standards, and that Dudley deserves minutes because he is better than the others. So how on earth are you arguing that you are not saying Dudley deserves the PT because he is helping win more games than the others? Those statements are dichotomous, unless you are saying that somehow playing the better player is not related to winning games. He can mentor in practice, on the bench, and yes, also in games, but the best way to mentor is to play WITH said player, not to play INSTEAD of said player.

Draft hit rate for our team is irrelevant. The point of the draft is to get the most sure thing you can, which occurs at the very top of the draft. Due to the lottery, the worse you do the better odds you have of getting the top of the draft. Get the 1st pick and the hit rate is much higher than the 2nd pick and so on. If you truly believe you would rather have the 8-13 pick than the 1-5, or that it is irrelevant, then okay, but you are literally ignoring the entire history of the draft.

How stupid is this statement?? You don't play two PFs at the same time. Chriss and Bender can barely play PF and you would want them to play C or SF or vice versa for Dudley. Illogical !!

The best way to mentor a young player is for a coach to say you aren't getting any minutes until you earn it. Be in shape (Chriss) and stay late at practice taking extra shots (not in Bender's wheelhouse last year). Instead you want to bring in rookies and they must play over better veterans because we need to develop them. Bullshat man !!! That destroys confidence in the head coach by the players and generates animosity between the players. No wonder you don't work in the NBA anymore. P.S. Show me some metrics that use AT AGE since you spout off about it all the time. They must exist somewhere in some book Mr. BS (Bullshat), MS (More shat), and Piled-Higher-and-Deeper (PhD). Bust out one of those text books you spent 9-10 years studying and take a picture or two so you are more believable.

[MathiasPW]

Can we create a thread where bigfoot and AtheJ415 go at each other and noone can interfere?

It is highly amusing, albeit little informative. Age, experience, 12 ppg, got it like 8 pages ago already...

[RaisingArizona]

Can we create a thread where bigfoot and AtheJ415 go at each other and noone can interfere?

It is highly amusing, albeit little informative. Age, experience, 12 ppg, got it like 8 pages ago already...

I say a live debate! Would be more exciting than our current season is.

[NavLDO]

Why is age emphasized so much here? Yeah, we have a lot of young players but they're just not any good. And the fact that a washed up and out of shape Dudley is better than them, says a lot.

Age is just an excuse by one particular poster who thinks our two PFs are going to be studs if we just give them until they are 25-26. You know another 5-6 years and we will know what we have with Bender and Chriss. Repeated comments like Butler and Curry were not considered stars until they were 26 has been the repeated logic used time and time again. All the while ignoring history about young power forwards who have excelled in the first two seasons.

Right now I'm looking at Kyle Kuzma shaking my head and saying how did the Laker manage to get a nice 22 year old rookie PF who is a star in the making at 22.

Because they screwed the pooch even worse than 'we' did last year by grabbing Ingram at #2...you know, two picks ahead of us at #4. And he's played nearly 3x as much as Bender has, because they've treated him with the sink-or-swim mentality. They also selected some other dude 2nd overall this past year who I've also heard is tearing it up...also on that same great development plan.

But, by all means, please do laud them over their #27 overall pick like they are some sort of drafting wizards...And speaking of which, Chriss had 5x the Blks and 3x the number of Steals in his rookie season per36 that Kuzma has, and just completely blew Ingram out of the water in just about every stat last year, well, just goes to show that even horrible young players can develop in the right situation, as Ingram seems to be doing, or that players can also regress, as Chriss seemingly has to some degree. Why?? Because they are all 19/20 YOs who need development, that's why...and Chriss/Bender have as many HCs, and MORE starting PGs than they do seasons in the league...

[NavLDO]

Age is just an excuse by one particular poster who thinks our two PFs are going to be studs if we just give them until they are 25-26. You know another 5-6 years and we will know what we have with Bender and Chriss. Repeated comments like Butler and Curry were not considered stars until they were 26 has been the repeated logic used time and time again. All the while ignoring history about young power forwards who have excelled in the first two seasons.

Right now I'm looking at Kyle Kuzma shaking my head and saying how did the Laker manage to get a nice 22 year old rookie PF who is a star in the making at 22.

Age is literally one of the most accurate ways to project player ability and upside. Production AT AGE is a key metric every organization in the entire league uses. Please point me to the stats you ran at NASA that show the irrelevance of this. I will wait. It is HIGHLY MORE RELEVANT than experience, though both matter. You simply cling to experience as everything. Well, guess what, Mike James is better than a lot of the PGs who have been MVP candidates as a rookie. Why is he not a franchise cornerstone? That's right, because he's 27 freaking years old.

Kyle Kuzma is 22 by the way. He played 3 years at Utah.

Kuzma is a year and a half older but is almost tripling JJ in PER. You can defend it till the cows come home but so far, JJ has been a huge disappointment. I don't care that he's 20. He was drafted 4 in a stacked draft and has an opportunity to play starter minutes every night. Stop making excuses for our player's bad play.

Let's see...6.7 x 3 = 20.9 and Kuzma has a PER of 15.4, so...hmmm...looks like more of that fuzzy math.

But never mind that...if we are going that route, let's look at how well we drafted last year, since last season...

Chriss PER = 12.3 , so...

Ingram's PER = 8.3
Brown's PER = 10.3
Dunn's PER = 8.1
Hield's PER = 11.8
Murray's PER = 11.9

Wow, then we got a steal last year with Chriss, then, right?

Notice how all those players in a stacked draft ALSO had terrible PERs?? And how anyone who isn't a Suns' player on a dysfunctional team, improved in year 2...you think JJ might have a chance at improving with a REAL PG and stability at Head Coach, or after 30 games, on a terrible team?? I don't know, but I do.

Not to mention the fact that he's shown some great hustle and a relentless motor that just needs some guidance...oh wait, I forgot, we've got all these great mentors here on our team; I'm glad to see how well that's working for us.

Tell you what...and everyone else that thinks all our young guys stink. How about we just trade them all to...say...New Orleans for E'Twaun Moore, Rajon Rondo, and Omer Asik, and we can roll out...

Rondo / Moore / Warren (kinda young though, we'll want to fix that soon) / Dudley / Asik

...then...

James / Daniels / some other SFand PF scrub off the street / Chandler

Then we can go get that 8th seed and Treadmill for a few short years. Sound good?

[thamadkant]

Bender doesnt take initative never. He has great passing skills, but even doesnt reach 1apg per 20 min. Scoring? Only 3 pointers..
On the one side he has some fundamental skills like defensive abilities and passing skills to be effective and using player, even when no score, but.. but i dont know - he is awful in most of games..

he plays like a child at this point... hate that he hesitates shooting a 3 over a point guard near a foot shorter... or drive pass a bigger slower player... when he's supposedly a nimble player. He needs to watch Porzingis and young Dirk.

[AtheJ415]

Age is just an excuse by one particular poster who thinks our two PFs are going to be studs if we just give them until they are 25-26. You know another 5-6 years and we will know what we have with Bender and Chriss. Repeated comments like Butler and Curry were not considered stars until they were 26 has been the repeated logic used time and time again. All the while ignoring history about young power forwards who have excelled in the first two seasons.

Right now I'm looking at Kyle Kuzma shaking my head and saying how did the Laker manage to get a nice 22 year old rookie PF who is a star in the making at 22.

Age is literally one of the most accurate ways to project player ability and upside. Production AT AGE is a key metric every organization in the entire league uses. Please point me to the stats you ran at NASA that show the irrelevance of this. I will wait. It is HIGHLY MORE RELEVANT than experience, though both matter. You simply cling to experience as everything. Well, guess what, Mike James is better than a lot of the PGs who have been MVP candidates as a rookie. Why is he not a franchise cornerstone? That's right, because he's 27 freaking years old.

Kyle Kuzma is 22 by the way. He played 3 years at Utah.

Kuzma is a year and a half older but is almost tripling JJ in PER. You can defend it till the cows come home but so far, JJ has been a huge disappointment. I don't care that he's 20. He was drafted 4 in a stacked draft and has an opportunity to play starter minutes every night. Stop making excuses for our player's bad play.

Who even mentioned JJ here? We were talking about Bender and Chriss. Kuzma kills everyone but Ben Simmons at the moment, including Lonzo, including Fultz, including plenty. Jackson's numbers are very similar to many star players over the first 30 games, including Russell Westbrook. But hey, let's trade him for Patrick Patterson. Gotta get that 10th seed no matter what.