Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4

[Frank Lee]

He has protected the rim for years. He was one of the best rim protectors in the entire league for his age just last season. People have just chosen to ignore that since they already wrote him off as a bust.

I did not say he didn’t. And there are reasons people had written him off. He signed the qualifying offer. That usually means he is a bust for the team that drafted him. I doubt we will be able to resign him.


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The reasons people wrote him off as a bust aren't valid. In his awful draft, he isn't. He is likely a 10 year NBA player who is a good backup or low end starter. He is not a bad player and hasn't been for years.

Yo... if Len signs somewhere else... he might as well had been a bust. Either way, he's gone

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

I did not say he didn’t. And there are reasons people had written him off. He signed the qualifying offer. That usually means he is a bust for the team that drafted him. I doubt we will be able to resign him.


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The reasons people wrote him off as a bust aren't valid. In his awful draft, he isn't. He is likely a 10 year NBA player who is a good backup or low end starter. He is not a bad player and hasn't been for years.

Yo... if Len signs somewhere else... he might as well had been a bust. Either way, he's gone

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Per 36 is the dumbest stat in my opinion. First Len will never avg 36 minutes a game, and Second he will never be consistent for 36 minutes.

If I get 1 point 1 rebound and 1 assist in a minute does that mean my per 36 is 36/36/36 . GOAT

Agreed. I don't think he'll return next year regardless how well he plays

I really don't think it's that cut and dry. We haven't mistreated him. He may demand a bit of a premium for his return.

Besides, if the teams most interested in Alex are not DAL, ATL and CHI, the S&T would still be Len's path out of town. Cheer up, fellas. Aren't we allowed to be optimistic on occasion?

[lilfishi22]

History shows he's probably gone but I don't think the book's necessarily closed. I don't *think* we've mistreated him. He might think his minutes through his tenure here has been erratic and inconsistent but I feel like he's conscious of the reason why. We've played him the minutes he's deserved and with our C position a bit iffy and depending what we do in the draft, we could give him a decent offer this offseason.

To be fair, he hadn't shown enough to warrant a long term extension before this season. This season his rebounding is up (near elite), he's averaging a career high in points, rebounds, FTA's while averaging a career low in fouls per game. He's shooting a career high .532FG% and .763FT%. If this Len showed up a seasons ago, he would've been extended.

[DaleyBlind]

Re sign Len and trade Chandler, simple

[bigfoot]

Straightforward ignorance and inability to look at the fact that Harris was behind two veteran SFs his first two years and was traded away by the Bucks before he broke out. This is the situation with every player you give as a poor counter example. Butler behind quality players and not getting touchs, never going to get shots over Rose, Deng, Noah, and Boozer. Compare that to Chriss and Bender who have both been starters and given lots of opportunity but just don't step up to the plate take it. Open you eyes and use that little bit of logic that you think you possess and spout off about all the time in your posts. Personally most of your arguments are illogical and make very, very little sense.

Oh, I know..Bender has started a ton...a whole ONE game, and averaged 13.3 MPG compared to Butler's 8.5 MPG in his 1st Season...or Harris' 11.4 (over 9 GS more than Bender...which was ZERO)

http://bkref.com/tiny/DUMZ1

By season two, though...watch out...Bender has started ONE game, and is averaging 20.5 MPG vs Butler (26.0 and 20 GS) and Harris (23.6 and 34 GS). Yep somehow Harris and Butler, not getting opportunities like Bender has, really slowed their development...

http://bkref.com/tiny/yWdKu

"But Chriss has started!!!" Yeah, and played 20MPG...ALSO, less than Butler and Harris in their 2nd season...and Ingram and Gordon. Gordon was scoring a whopping 9.2 PPG.

Then let's look at per36, and low and behold, Bender and Chriss leading the way in Blks...Chriss in 2nd in TRB, while Bender is 2nd in 3PT%. Bender is actually even with Harris in TS%.

But yes, overall, they are behind those two in their development. So while Bender barely had a smidgen more minutes played in his 1st season than Harris/Butler, but this time in their 2nd season, they had caught up. Chriss, yes, has had more minutes. But just like you are using excuses about playing with All-Star Veterans as reasoning why they weren't getting as many touches, well, it works both ways. They also benefit from playing with better players (Rose as a PG back then was miles better than anything we are running out there...)

Point is, sure we can point fingers and say our young guys suck, so on and so forth, but Bender is getting better every game; Chriss unfortunately, well, not so much. But it's not unfathomable to believe that they will get better; as I mentioned and a good example was last night that you can see for yourself. Bender is gaining confidence, and with more playing time/experience, he looks like he might actually get it. Chriss? Not too sure, but it's possible, and it's certainly not too late.

Seriously, there is no winning with Bigfoot. You either point out historical facts and trends, which he ignores, while he points to specific anecdotes as proof of his view while simultaneously seeing players as either stars or complete busts with 0 middle ground. When you point out similar anecdotes, he uses subjective logic like "they are battling for spots on playoff teams". Tobias Harris was on AWFUL magic teams and Bucks teams. They were nothing special. He barely played because he simply wasn't all that good until later on in his career, despite being significantly older than the Suns players he attacks repeatedly.

I post links to stats and player comparisons all the time. Stuff that tries to support what I post. Unlike you I don't claim to have ever worked for an NBA team, gone to an Ivy League school, or received M.S. and PhD in sports analytics. I've asked you repeatedly to show some of that wonderful knowledge you have to backup your statement that Alex Len was a top rim protector in the league last year. Somehow you're okay with spewing nothing but your opinion without any supporting information and then don't take time to look at anything I put out there. So I'll do your work for you since your to lazy to do anything ... last year Alex Len was middle of the pack in terms of rim protection on shots within 6 feet of the rim. Here's the statistical proof.

https://tinyurl.com/yarfnhoj

By the way, I'm still waiting for you to post anything about the Production AT AGE metric you tout all the time. Probably doesn't exist much like your Ivy league degrees and NBA analytics experience.

[Hesh]

This is just an observation on Alex Len. But, because of his somewhat introvert character, quiet demeanor, his long process in development and becoming a pro player with the help and support of his current teammates, I think he would prefer to stay in Phoenix if he were given the contract and the starting gig.

He doesn't seem like a person who wants to go through all that competition again just to earn minutes on another team where he has
to re-learn and then adapt his newly found style in regards to the system, the culture, the players, etc.

Because of his own long development, this may give him second thoughts about going through all that again with a new team.

He seems like the type of person that would be more inclined to stay with in Phoenix where he's aware of all his surroundings and is
comfortable in the environment. That is, if the Phoenix offer matches the same value as the highest bidder.

[Revived]

I wouldn't give Len a contract that's longer than 3 years and worth more than $10M/yr at most.

He's still wildly inconsistent and even though he's playing very well this season, I don't think its a coincidence that its also his contract year.

Many, many players have played their asses off their contract years and then quit putting in any effort afterwards so its important to be cautious of that.

[jcsunsfan]

I wouldn't give Len a contract that's longer than 3 years and worth more than $10M/yr at most.

He's still wildly inconsistent and even though he's playing very well this season, I don't think its a coincidence that its also his contract year.

Many, many players have played their asses off their contract years and then quit putting in any effort afterwards so its important to be cautious of that.

I just don’t see it. He has been playing quite consistently this year. I also don’t see him putting out effort just because it is a contract year. Len always worked hard, just not well. He has simplified his game, sticks with what he is good at and it is paying off.


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[lilfishi22]

I wouldn't give Len a contract that's longer than 3 years and worth more than $10M/yr at most.

He's still wildly inconsistent and even though he's playing very well this season, I don't think its a coincidence that its also his contract year.

Many, many players have played their asses off their contract years and then quit putting in any effort afterwards so its important to be cautious of that.

I just don’t see it. He has been playing quite consistently this year. I also don’t see him putting out effort just because it is a contract year. Len always worked hard, just not well. He has simplified his game, sticks with what he is good at and it is paying off.


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Maybe he's playing out of his mind because it's contract year. Or maybe he's taken his game to the next level. Unfortunately, if we want to retain him, we'll have to pay him like he's taken his game to the next level. At this point, he's still had some very iffy games this season so I'd be hesitant to pay him until we've seen more consistency and over a longer stretch.

[Revived]

I wouldn't give Len a contract that's longer than 3 years and worth more than $10M/yr at most.

He's still wildly inconsistent and even though he's playing very well this season, I don't think its a coincidence that its also his contract year.

Many, many players have played their asses off their contract years and then quit putting in any effort afterwards so its important to be cautious of that.

I just don’t see it. He has been playing quite consistently this year. I also don’t see him putting out effort just because it is a contract year. Len always worked hard, just not well. He has simplified his game, sticks with what he is good at and it is paying off.


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I'm not saying he's only playing better because its a contract year but you never know. Could be a Miles Plumlee/Mason Plumlee/Ian Mahimi type situation.

There's plenty of overpaid bigs in the league like the Plumlee brothers, Mahimi, Mozgov, Olynyk, Cody Zeller, Henson among many, many others. I don't want the Suns to add to the list with Len.

[Qwigglez]

I wouldn't give Len a contract that's longer than 3 years and worth more than $10M/yr at most.

He's still wildly inconsistent and even though he's playing very well this season, I don't think its a coincidence that its also his contract year.

Many, many players have played their asses off their contract years and then quit putting in any effort afterwards so its important to be cautious of that.

I just don’t see it. He has been playing quite consistently this year. I also don’t see him putting out effort just because it is a contract year. Len always worked hard, just not well. He has simplified his game, sticks with what he is good at and it is paying off.


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I'm not saying he's only playing better because its a contract year but you never know. Could be a Miles Plumlee/Mason Plumlee/Ian Mahimi type situation.

There's plenty of overpaid bigs in the league like the Plumlee brothers, Mahimi, Mozgov, Olynyk, Cody Zeller, Henson among many, many others. I don't want the Suns to add to the list with Len.

Len is a true 7 footer though. The only player you listed who I believe is a 7 footer is Mahimi, though I could be wrong. None of those guys pass the eye test when it comes to protecting the paint like Len does IMO. Len may not get as many blocks as other players but he definitely alters a lot of shots. I'd take Len over all those guys, but I do see your point of Len possibly being a contract player.

[Mulhollanddrive]

If the plan is to get a Center with a top 6 pick then you have to pay Len back up money which is about $7m like Williams.

[Revived]

I just don’t see it. He has been playing quite consistently this year. I also don’t see him putting out effort just because it is a contract year. Len always worked hard, just not well. He has simplified his game, sticks with what he is good at and it is paying off.


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I'm not saying he's only playing better because its a contract year but you never know. Could be a Miles Plumlee/Mason Plumlee/Ian Mahimi type situation.

There's plenty of overpaid bigs in the league like the Plumlee brothers, Mahimi, Mozgov, Olynyk, Cody Zeller, Henson among many, many others. I don't want the Suns to add to the list with Len.

Len is a true 7 footer though. The only player you listed who I believe is a 7 footer is Mahimi, though I could be wrong. None of those guys pass the eye test when it comes to protecting the paint like Len does IMO. Len may not get as many blocks as other players but he definitely alters a lot of shots. I'd take Len over all those guys, but I do see your point of Len possibly being a contract player.

Oh I'm sure everyone would since all those guys I listed are seen as awful, awful basketball players now since they've all basically stopped giving a crap after getting paid.

And I'm not sure an inch or two makes that much of a difference anyway but Zeller, Mozgov and Olynyk are all 7 foot players too.

If Len can play defense without fouling while continuing to rebound the same way he has and understands his limitations offensively then I'm okay with keeping him.

He does this thing on offense where he gets an offensive rebound or an entry pass and a double or triple team will come his way and rather than passing it out, he'll put up a crazy wild shot hoping to draw the foul which never comes. Its one of my biggest pet peeves when watching him play. He needs to understand his limitations and better grasp his role offensively.

[NavLDO]

Len has gone stretches in his career where he puts up solid numbers, but then even longer stretches when he just disappears. He needs to be consistent for us to offer him a contract. I think the first step for that to happen is to give him continued minutes in a defined role. I'd like for us to start him and see how he does with that group of players, especially Booker. I know Chandler gets the occasional lob from Booker but I think Len could get some easy put backs or some drop offs (if he doesn't drop the ball), or even some tip outs with the first unit. Let him start and see what he can do, he's only started twice this season and when you aren't in a predefined role I think that affects the outcome of the product.

I've been 'screaming' for this to take place for the past couple of seasons. Well, maybe not screaming, but surely, you remember this topic as one of the dozen or so 'dead horses' I've beaten over the past couple of years, that Len needs to start, and be given at least 25 MPG (unless he fouls himself out, of course). If that happens, I'm confident we would see, at least, a 12/12/1.5 Blks per game performance, on average, each night. And while that may not wow anyone, it sure as heck isn't anything to sneeze at either...and with his recent tear of providing Assists, I wouldn't be surprised to see him add 2-3 of those per game, as well...

[NavLDO]

I wouldn't give Len a contract that's longer than 3 years and worth more than $10M/yr at most.

He's still wildly inconsistent and even though he's playing very well this season, I don't think its a coincidence that its also his contract year.

Many, many players have played their asses off their contract years and then quit putting in any effort afterwards so its important to be cautious of that.

I just don’t see it. He has been playing quite consistently this year. I also don’t see him putting out effort just because it is a contract year. Len always worked hard, just not well. He has simplified his game, sticks with what he is good at and it is paying off.


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I agree. I just don't think he's the type to play for a contract...he's been playing for a starting spot his whole career, so he's definitely been trying, but I think you are right; I think he's in a position where he doesn't have a coach telling him exactly how THEY want him to play, so he's playing how he knows how to play, which I think had 'they' let him do that from the get-go, we'd have a different Len right now.

[NavLDO]

Len is leading the team in WS right now:

http://bkref.com/tiny/g4CoN

The fact that he's playing only 22 mpg makes this even more impressive (WS is a cumulative stat). He's fulfilling his role really well right now.

I'm hoping last night was a big step for Alex, as that passing was great to see. Aside from getting bested by Alan Williams last year (and my own occasional wanderings into the anti-Alex camp after disappointing performances), I've maintained a preference for Alex over our other options at the 5 since his second year with the team. I think he's a better option than Tyson/Moose right now and going forward. He's the only rim protector we have at the 5. Our next best rim protectors are Quese and Dragan.

Unless we use our top pick on Deandre Ayton (or perhaps Wendell Carter or Robert Williams), I think we're better off giving Alex a market extension and jettisoning Tyson. This shift in my own thinking results primarily from the following rationale --- Any other 5 we might draft either won't be able to protect the rim (Bagley) or will be too raw to start at the 5 within the next 2-3 years (Jackson, Bamba, Robinson). There's also a very real risk that several of these guys will never be as solid as Alex is now. Only Ayton and Bamba can match Len's size. And we should know by now that bigs take a while to develop. We simply can't count on a player we draft next year to be ready to succeed Tyson after just 1 year in the league.

Looking at the 2018 free agent landscape (http://www.spotrac.com/nba/cap/2018/), it seems that the only teams who might make Alex a solid offer are ATL, DAL and CHI. One of those teams is likely to draft Ayton. Hopefully Alex has an impressive remainder of the year and justifies a solid contract offer from us. McD has said he would like to be the GM to make that offer, but that Alex has to earn it. I hope he continues to do so.

Yep, but now, it might be too late; bridges might be burned. Chalk up another 'win' for the Mcd/Sarver duo! Seriously! And while he might not be our best option as a Full Time HC; IDK...but if we maintain Triano, we might have a chance, as Len might recognize his best shot at getting 'his style' of playing time is under Triano. I'm not advocating keeping Triano for that reason; I'm just saying that if he does end up staying, it might help our cause.

[carey]

I just don’t see it. He has been playing quite consistently this year. I also don’t see him putting out effort just because it is a contract year. Len always worked hard, just not well. He has simplified his game, sticks with what he is good at and it is paying off.

He still has stone hands & that will never be fixed. I saw him go up for a monster board in the middle of 4 defenders the other day. I was like, "Holy ****!" Then he immediately puts the ball down low (why?) and turns it over. I just wonder what he does well besides rebound. He doesn't finish well. He's ok on put backs or wide open dunks. Every now and then he'll bust out a reverse layup or something nifty that makes you wonder why he doesn't do that more often. Other than that he isn't special and we can't afford to pay him like he is. You just pay him like a decent rebounder at his position. My hunch is that he wants significantly more than that.

[Revived]

and all you guys clamoring for a Point Guard forget we have 28 million bucks worth of one recovering.

He shouldn't be seen as a solution of any kind.

[Revived]

Per 36 is the dumbest stat in my opinion. First Len will never avg 36 minutes a game, and Second he will never be consistent for 36 minutes.

If I get 1 point 1 rebound and 1 assist in a minute does that mean my per 36 is 36/36/36 . GOAT

I don't think Len is even capable of playing 30 mins without fouling out.