Phil Jackson on Kobe: The GOAT measure is championships

[Andy123]

Fisher tired with Kobe on the GOAT list.. got it.

Here come the insecure haters......

I don't think someone is a hater for exposing flaws in logic.

True.. and he's half the player bill Russell is .

[LLcoleJ]

Of course it's a terrible argument. So is looking solely at rings and acting as if Kobe wasn't #2 to the most dominant player ever for 3 of them.

And ?

If people stopped making the dumb argument I referenced, you'd stop seeing the dumb Fisher/Horry argument. Context matters heavily when you look at rings. This isn't really directed at you, it looks like we're in general agreement.

So is this about Kobe’s all time great position ? Because Phil is on record saying Mike. What PJ is saying is that your retired jerseys are not indicative to your impact on the net result. Which is championships.
I am Shaq fan for life but he doesn’t get the 3 peAt without the mamba, because he is an all time great as well.

The mere idea and logic with the >>>>> rings , Horry, Kerr.... is awful logic, actually pathetic in its attempt. So based off that you can argue where he stands in your all time “
List” .....

He worked hard, played hard and succeeded at the highest level with other all timers. Any argument out side of that is absurd.

[LLcoleJ]

Fisher tired with Kobe on the GOAT list.. got it.

Here come the insecure haters......

I don't think someone is a hater for exposing flaws in logic.

You mean like Fisher tired of Kobe on the “ list”?

[ajdontwatchthat]

Notice how the "Kobe wasn't the best player for 3 of his rings" argument is never made for Duncan,Magic,Kareem,DWade or Wilt when he had Goodrich and Jerry averaging 25 a piece in the finals lol.

[StepBackCrack]

I bet Dirk wouldn't be viewed so highly by most if LeBron didn't embarrass himself in the 2011 finals and won that title instead. People who say championships don't have a heavy influence on people's perception of a certain player's greatness are just deluded. ALL the players in the top 10 have several championships. Having one title isn't even enough to enter the top 10 no matter how great you are. You bet most people wouldn't consider LeBron a top 10 player with zero titles. There is a reason Brady is considered the GOAT even tho he isn't really better than Rodgers ability/talent-wise. 5 beats 1. People don't care about how much help Brady had in his career. History remembers championships the most.

Rings aren't everything which is true but they matter A LOT. It's just the harsh reality.

[LLcoleJ]

And ?

If people stopped making the dumb argument I referenced, you'd stop seeing the dumb Fisher/Horry argument. Context matters heavily when you look at rings. This isn't really directed at you, it looks like we're in general agreement.

We can end the argument now..Bill Russell is the goat.. please don't raise context .. as an excuse...The great ones know what matters .. which is rings so Russell is the greatest period ..I'm being sarcastic between.
I hate it between when people who have rings use rings in an argument.. kinda like Jordan taking players position as a player and them owners position when he is an owner ..It reason Phil uses ring as argument is because he has plenty in short saying he is the greatest coach. Lol how convenient.

So we can agree that Kobe, MJ, Russell and Co are on different levels than Robert Horry?

[cpower]

Phil: Robert Horry > Kobe Bean

[Zeitgeister]

Here come the insecure haters......

I don't think someone is a hater for exposing flaws in logic.

You mean like Fisher tired of Kobe on the “ list”?

Clearly the poster was being sarcastic. It's just the same tired argument we've been hearing for years that it's all about championships and far too often people ignore the context that great players win championships in and also fail to win championships in.

[NyKnicks1714]

And ?

If people stopped making the dumb argument I referenced, you'd stop seeing the dumb Fisher/Horry argument. Context matters heavily when you look at rings. This isn't really directed at you, it looks like we're in general agreement.

I am Shaq fan for life but he doesn’t get the 3 peAt without the mamba, because he is an all time great as well.

This is a straw man; nobody ever says Shaq would have won without Kobe. There isn't a championship team in NBA history whose second best player was not vital.

[Zeitgeister]

Notice how the "Kobe wasn't the best player for 3 of his rings" argument is never made for Duncan,Magic,Kareem,DWade or Wilt when he had Goodrich and Jerry averaging 25 a piece in the finals lol.

That is simply not true. I mean first of all, the reason why this comes up more with Kobe than others is because people keep wanting to prop up Kobe even higher than he should be. They want to say he's on LeBron's level, they want to say that he's on Jordan's level or at least just barely below him. So that's why the context in which Kobe has won his championships becomes especially important. No one is really talking about Dwayne Wade in that way so it doesn't come up. It certainly comes up with Kareem and Magic. With Duncan if he wasn't the best player, it's a lot closer than it was with Shaq and Kobe for at least 2 of their championships together.

[mysticOscar]

I bet Dirk wouldn't be viewed so highly by most if LeBron didn't embarrass himself in the 2011 finals and won that title instead. People who say championships don't have a heavy influence on people's perception of a certain player's greatness are just deluded. ALL the players in the top 10 have several championships. Having one title isn't even enough to enter the top 10 no matter how great you are. You bet most people wouldn't consider LeBron a top 10 player with zero titles. There is a reason Brady is considered the GOAT even tho he isn't really better than Rodgers ability/talent-wise. 5 beats 1. People don't care about how much help Brady had in his career. History remembers championships the most.

Rings aren't everything which is true but they matter A LOT. It's just the harsh reality.

You go through these boards and occassionally you stumble upon some reasonable high common sense post....

[-Sammy-]

"The greatest measure of an individual is how many times a team of more than 50 players, coaches, trainers, doctors, scouts, analysts, and executives works together to accomplish a collective goal."

This is what the 'ringz' argument parses down to-- period--, and it's an inherently and self-evidently flawed position. It's like arguing that Gomer Pyle is a greater warrior than Karl von Bulow because the United States won more wars than Germany.

The problem is that in the late 70s and early 80s, media was so pervasively influential in American thought that when marketers recognized the sales potential of superstar athletes, people began to conflate their love of team sports with their fascination with celebrity, and that led to conflating the ultimate goal of team sports-- team championships, which are won by teams-- with discussions about which individual players were best. We started viewing what we already recognize as the ultimate goal in sports-- the team championship-- as though it were an individual accomplishment, and started wrongly imparting it to players as an individual accomplishment. That's why we so frequently hear things like 'player X won two titles', 'player X needs to win a title to secure his legacy'. Players don't win titles; teams do, and it's never actually correct to say 'player X won a title'.

We all want to know who the greatest players and teams are, but we have to remember that individual greatness and team greatness are two different things. Men don't win wars (nations do) and nations aren't awarded Purple Hearts (soldiers are), to revisit the military analogy; in the same sense, teams don't win MVPs (players do) and players don't win championships (teams do).

[LLcoleJ]

I don't think someone is a hater for exposing flaws in logic.

You mean like Fisher tired of Kobe on the “ list”?

Clearly the poster was being sarcastic. It's just the same tired argument we've been hearing for years that it's all about championships and far too often people ignore the context that great players win championships in and also fail to win championships in.

No he clearly wasn’t being sarcastic and that is echoed by you and others in this thread.
So to my point is yes, context is important , why stawman?

[LLcoleJ]

If people stopped making the dumb argument I referenced, you'd stop seeing the dumb Fisher/Horry argument. Context matters heavily when you look at rings. This isn't really directed at you, it looks like we're in general agreement.

I am Shaq fan for life but he doesn’t get the 3 peAt without the mamba, because he is an all time great as well.

This is a straw man; nobody ever says Shaq would have won without Kobe. There isn't a championship team in NBA history whose second best player was not vital.

You quoted part of the post to make a point. Yet that wasn’t my point at all. That’s not a straw man.

[JordansBulls]

So Phil is saying Bill Russell is the GOAT?

Well if everyone only had to play 2 series to win a title then ....

[Zeitgeister]

You mean like Fisher tired of Kobe on the “ list”?

Clearly the poster was being sarcastic. It's just the same tired argument we've been hearing for years that it's all about championships and far too often people ignore the context that great players win championships in and also fail to win championships in.

No he clearly wasn’t being sarcastic and that is echoed by you and others in this thread.
So to my point is yes, context is important , why stawman?

You actually think that poster believes Derek Fisher is equal to Kobe Bryant as a player? Wow.

What strawman? Phil just said the GOAT measure and followed that with championship trophies, he is inferring that the number of championships you have is the measurement for how great you are as a player or where you fall on a "Greatest of All-time" list.

[LLcoleJ]

"The greatest measure of an individual is how many times a team of more than 50 players, coaches, trainers, doctors, scouts, analysts, and executives works together to accomplish a collective goal."

This is what the 'ringz' argument parses down to-- period--, and it's an inherently and self-evidently flawed position. It's like arguing that Gomer Pyle is a greater warrior than Karl von Bulow because the United States won more wars than Germany.

Shout out to Gomer Pyle reference. I know you are not not that old.

But in a situation in your argument that “ ringz” is the only measure of greatness you are speaking out of context to the Laker/Kobe fans and are speaking only of the “ KOBE is the goat!” Which is clearly the vocal minority to his true impact on the game. BecUse most people hate Kobe for their reasons and most of his loudest opponents use the “ Kobe fans/stands” are still he talking about him , but haven’t really for 5 plus years.

[Hero]

Lebron gets no respect by any legend.

Not true. Only Laker homers like Lisa Leslie or Phil Jackson would view it that way. Look at what Julius Erving or Oscar Robertson say about him.

Watch on YouTube

That's a relief considering the absolute nonsense that Chuck and crew have been saying.

[LLcoleJ]

Clearly the poster was being sarcastic. It's just the same tired argument we've been hearing for years that it's all about championships and far too often people ignore the context that great players win championships in and also fail to win championships in.

No he clearly wasn’t being sarcastic and that is echoed by you and others in this thread.
So to my point is yes, context is important , why stawman?

You actually think that poster believes Derek Fisher is equal to Kobe Bryant as a player? Wow.

What strawman? Phil just said the GOAT measure and followed that with championship trophies, he is inferring that the number of championships you have is the measurement for how great you are as a player or where you fall on a "Greatest of All-time" list.

No, I am actually tired by why that topic keeps getting brought up. Cause you know, context,

I believe that poster and many others are stuck trying to fight a losing battle and use poor analogies to support them.

[andrewww]

"The greatest measure of an individual is how many times a team of more than 50 players, coaches, trainers, doctors, scouts, analysts, and executives works together to accomplish a collective goal."

This is what the 'ringz' argument parses down to-- period--, and it's an inherently and self-evidently flawed position. It's like arguing that Gomer Pyle is a greater warrior than Karl von Bulow because the United States won more wars than Germany.

Shout out to Gomer Pyle reference. I know you are not not that old.

But in a situation in your argument that “ ringz” is the only measure of greatness you are speaking out of context to the Laker/Kobe fans and are speaking only of the “ KOBE is the goat!” Which is clearly the vocal minority to his true impact on the game. BecUse most people hate Kobe for their reasons and most of his loudest opponents use the “ Kobe fans/stands” are still he talking about him , but haven’t really for 5 plus years.

With Kobe and only a select handful of all time great players in other sports does the term "haters gona hate" ring true. The man is getting his jersey retired and here a large contingent of Kobe haters and their weak ass arguments are derailing yet another thread. These people absolutely hate to see any praise lavished on Kobe and I love it.