Phil Jackson on Kobe: The GOAT measure is championships

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Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe: The GOAT measure is championships 

Post#81 » by dynamic duo » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:17 am

fantastic player though, top 20 all-time.
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Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe: The GOAT measure is championships 

Post#82 » by andrewww » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:19 am

dynamic duo wrote:fantastic player though, the GOAT that is Kobe.


Fixed it for ya.
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Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe: The GOAT measure is championships 

Post#83 » by dynamic duo » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:25 am

i don't know why people get sensitive if they put kobe in top 20, that's still good. pau was a beast and should have won fmvp as well, that team was fun to watch.
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Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe: The GOAT measure is championships 

Post#84 » by zimpy27 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:26 am

RCM88x wrote:So bizarre how much Lebron respects MJ and Kobe and vice versa (maybe less so with MJ), yet he and Phil seem to both have a grudge against one another. Weird aye?


That's more about Phil being ignorant about LeBron's friends.
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Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe: The GOAT measure is championships 

Post#85 » by homecourtloss » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:28 am

mysticOscar wrote:
Teshima Junta wrote:I bet Dirk wouldn't be viewed so highly by most if LeBron didn't embarrass himself in the 2011 finals and won that title instead. People who say championships don't have a heavy influence on people's perception of a certain player's greatness are just deluded. ALL the players in the top 10 have several championships. Having one title isn't even enough to enter the top 10 no matter how great you are. You bet most people wouldn't consider LeBron a top 10 player with zero titles. There is a reason Brady is considered the GOAT even tho he isn't really better than Rodgers ability/talent-wise. 5 beats 1. People don't care about how much help Brady had in his career. History remembers championships the most.

Rings aren't everything which is true but they matter A LOT. It's just the harsh reality.


You go through these boards and occassionally you stumble upon some reasonable high common sense post....


High common sense = comment that sgrees with what one thinks

Got it.
lessthanjake wrote:Kyrie was extremely impactful without LeBron, and basically had zero impact whatsoever if LeBron was on the court.

lessthanjake wrote: By playing in a way that prevents Kyrie from getting much impact, LeBron ensures that controlling for Kyrie has limited effect…
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Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe: The GOAT measure is championships 

Post#86 » by -Sammy- » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:28 am

euroleague wrote:
BombsquadSammy wrote:
euroleague wrote:
Scouts, executives, analysts, doctors... they aren't winning. Coaches are on the side. The players on the court are winning.


No, the players are on the court playing. Playing is part of winning-- the most important part, to be sure--, but to say that the only thing that matters is what happens between the lines is to ignore reality, which is that what happens in the realms of coaching, training, scouting, and healing creates what's put in between the lines to do the playing.

Otherwise, why have the Pops and Phils and Reds and Rileys at all? Why have trainers and scouts? Why do we care what Phil said here and why is there a thread about it if the only thing that matters is what happens on the hardwood?


euroleague wrote:
Using black and white to say the player didn't win is too simple.


No, it's not. Kevin Durant is not the 2017 NBA champion-- Golden State is. There are no title banners hanging in any player's living room-- they hang in the arena, where the entire team plays and works. Championship trophies have team names on them, not individuals' names. None of these are matters of opinion or interpretations; they're all facts.


KD is the champion. That can't be disputed. His teammates are as well.


No, KD is on the championship team. 'The champion' is a singular noun-- if KD is the champion, then his teammates cannot also be the champion unless there are 12+ the champions, which obviously doesn't make sense. If there are 12+ champions, why aren't there 12+ Larry O'Brien trophies?

Because there's only one champion, and the champion is the Golden State Warriors. KD is part of the championship team, but he is not himself 'the champion.' Kevin Durant didn't beat an entire basketball team-- another basketball team did. The O'Brien wasn't awarded to Kevin Durant-- it was awarded to Golden State.

euroleague wrote:The coach is there to coach and create a system - sure, he is also important. GM pays and trades, so obviously one who gets better players together is good.

Trainers are there to develop the players...Coaching is important...


If everything you've written here is true (which it is), then this

euroleague wrote:In the end, it's the players.


can't be true. You cannot simultaneously acknowledge the importance of all those other people and dismiss them as not being part of the winning process.

Take Kevin Durant off the Warriors and they don't win 2017. But take Durant's strength and cardiovascular endurance away, take away his precision shooting the ball, take away the plays he's been trained to run with the other players (and take their skills, health, and athleticism away as well-- and while we're at it, take away those players, who aren't being drafted or scouted or traded for or paid without a front office, scouts, analysts, and a GM), and the Warriors aren't winning, either.
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Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe: The GOAT measure is championships 

Post#87 » by -Sammy- » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:30 am

mysticOscar wrote:
BombsquadSammy wrote:
mysticOscar wrote:
You are greatly under rating the impact of superstars in a game of basketball.


Considering that I haven't said anything about how important I think superstars are to a game of basketball, I don't know how you can evaluate my rating of them.

All I've said is that superstars aren't the only factor; if you disagree with that, we can have that conversation.


Read your example. You literally used the context of wars where millions of ppl are involved to signify the impact of one soldier.

So me saying that you are under rating the impact of a superstar in a game of basketball.....is not at all an axaggeration


I used the example of one soldier to illustrate that his military's performance doesn't tell us whether or not he's the best soldier.

I related that to the example of one ballplayer to illustrate that his team's performance doesn't tell us whether or not he's the best ballplayer.
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Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe: The GOAT measure is championships 

Post#88 » by euroleague » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:39 am

BombsquadSammy wrote:
euroleague wrote:
BombsquadSammy wrote:
No, the players are on the court playing. Playing is part of winning-- the most important part, to be sure--, but to say that the only thing that matters is what happens between the lines is to ignore reality, which is that what happens in the realms of coaching, training, scouting, and healing creates what's put in between the lines to do the playing.

Otherwise, why have the Pops and Phils and Reds and Rileys at all? Why have trainers and scouts? Why do we care what Phil said here and why is there a thread about it if the only thing that matters is what happens on the hardwood?




No, it's not. Kevin Durant is not the 2017 NBA champion-- Golden State is. There are no title banners hanging in any player's living room-- they hang in the arena, where the entire team plays and works. Championship trophies have team names on them, not individuals' names. None of these are matters of opinion or interpretations; they're all facts.


KD is the champion. That can't be disputed. His teammates are as well.


No, KD is on the championship team. 'The champion' is a singular noun-- if KD is the champion, then his teammates cannot also be the champion unless there are 12+ the champions, which obviously doesn't make sense. If there are 12+ champions, why aren't there 12+ Larry O'Brien trophies?

Because there's only one champion, and the champion is the Golden State Warriors. KD is part of the championship team, but he is not himself 'the champion.' Kevin Durant didn't beat an entire basketball team-- another basketball team did. The O'Brien wasn't awarded to Kevin Durant-- it was awarded to Golden State.

euroleague wrote:The coach is there to coach and create a system - sure, he is also important. GM pays and trades, so obviously one who gets better players together is good.

Trainers are there to develop the players...Coaching is important...


If everything you've written here is true (which it is), then this

euroleague wrote:In the end, it's the players.


can't be true. You cannot simultaneously acknowledge the importance of all those other people and dismiss them as not being part of the winning process.

Take Kevin Durant off the Warriors and they don't win 2017. But take Durant's strength and cardiovascular endurance away, take away his precision shooting the ball, take away the plays he's been trained to run with the other players (and take their skills, health, and athleticism away as well-- and while we're at it, take away those players, who aren't being drafted or scouted or traded for or paid without a front office, scouts, analysts, and a GM), and the Warriors aren't winning, either.


Trainers are important- but less important than HCA because fans are more important. Family is more important (obviously). High school coaches and college coaches are important. Who a player hang out with is important.

Because someone helped the player doesn't mean they won an nba championship. The player won.

Every player on the Warriors 17 is currently the nba champ. KD is. Curry is.
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Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe: The GOAT measure is championships 

Post#89 » by mysticOscar » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:43 am

BombsquadSammy wrote:
mysticOscar wrote:
BombsquadSammy wrote:
Considering that I haven't said anything about how important I think superstars are to a game of basketball, I don't know how you can evaluate my rating of them.

All I've said is that superstars aren't the only factor; if you disagree with that, we can have that conversation.


Read your example. You literally used the context of wars where millions of ppl are involved to signify the impact of one soldier.

So me saying that you are under rating the impact of a superstar in a game of basketball.....is not at all an axaggeration


I used the example of one soldier to illustrate that his military's performance doesn't tell us whether or not he's the best soldier.

I related that to the example of one ballplayer to illustrate that his team's performance doesn't tell us whether or not he's the best ballplayer.


But thats what im saying....u are under rating the impact of a player to winning games.

Its no coincidence the best players in history have multiple championships......Heck...teams are paying and fighting to acquire best players in the league.

It really baffles me how u think that players dont have impact on championships
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Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe: The GOAT measure is championships 

Post#90 » by -Sammy- » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:55 am

euroleague wrote:
BombsquadSammy wrote:
euroleague wrote:
KD is the champion. That can't be disputed. His teammates are as well.


No, KD is on the championship team. 'The champion' is a singular noun-- if KD is the champion, then his teammates cannot also be the champion unless there are 12+ the champions, which obviously doesn't make sense. If there are 12+ champions, why aren't there 12+ Larry O'Brien trophies?

Because there's only one champion, and the champion is the Golden State Warriors. KD is part of the championship team, but he is not himself 'the champion.' Kevin Durant didn't beat an entire basketball team-- another basketball team did. The O'Brien wasn't awarded to Kevin Durant-- it was awarded to Golden State.

euroleague wrote:The coach is there to coach and create a system - sure, he is also important. GM pays and trades, so obviously one who gets better players together is good.

Trainers are there to develop the players...Coaching is important...


If everything you've written here is true (which it is), then this

euroleague wrote:In the end, it's the players.


can't be true. You cannot simultaneously acknowledge the importance of all those other people and dismiss them as not being part of the winning process.

Take Kevin Durant off the Warriors and they don't win 2017. But take Durant's strength and cardiovascular endurance away, take away his precision shooting the ball, take away the plays he's been trained to run with the other players (and take their skills, health, and athleticism away as well-- and while we're at it, take away those players, who aren't being drafted or scouted or traded for or paid without a front office, scouts, analysts, and a GM), and the Warriors aren't winning, either.


Trainers are important- but less important than HCA because fans are more important. Family is more important (obviously). High school coaches and college coaches are important. Who a player hang out with is important.

Because someone helped the player doesn't mean they won an nba championship. The player won.


The personnel who are assembled specifically to create and sustain the unit that does the winning is the team.

It's worth noting that the viewpoint I'm articulating is actually the official stance of the NBA, not Sammy's uninformed opinion; this is why the coaching staff, trainers, medical staff, scouting and analysis teams, and front-office executives all get championship rings when a team wins. The NBA awards 40+ rings to each champion, and all 40+ rings are exactly the same. The NBA's viewpoint is my viewpoint.

euroleague wrote:
Every player on the Warriors 17 is currently the nba champ. KD is. Curry is.


Image

This is basketball-reference.com's list of the last 10 NBA champions. You'll notice that Durant's name doesn't appear on this list; nor does Curry's or any other player's. According to BBRef.com, then, the Golden State Warriors, not KD and Curry, are the NBA champions.

If you consult NBA'com, which is the official website of the league, you'll find that they agree with BBRef.com. Respectfully, I'm going with the NBA's take on this.
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Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe: The GOAT measure is championships 

Post#91 » by Capn'O » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:55 am

Phil Jackson still the GOAT troll
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Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe: The GOAT measure is championships 

Post#92 » by 1993Playoffs » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:57 am

dynamic duo wrote:fantastic player though, top 20 all-time.


20 is a little too low bro, I have Kobe 12th all time....which is obviously very high praise, the guy was a great player
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Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe: The GOAT measure is championships 

Post#93 » by -Sammy- » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:59 am

mysticOscar wrote:
BombsquadSammy wrote:
mysticOscar wrote:
Read your example. You literally used the context of wars where millions of ppl are involved to signify the impact of one soldier.

So me saying that you are under rating the impact of a superstar in a game of basketball.....is not at all an axaggeration


I used the example of one soldier to illustrate that his military's performance doesn't tell us whether or not he's the best soldier.

I related that to the example of one ballplayer to illustrate that his team's performance doesn't tell us whether or not he's the best ballplayer.


But thats what im saying....u are under rating the impact of a player to winning games.


You're taking the analogy too literally. I'm not saying that each player factors into his team's success to the same degree that each soldier does his military's; I'm saying they both factor the same way.

mysticOscar wrote:It really baffles me how u think that players dont have impact on championships


Please direct me to the post where I wrote that players don't impact championships.
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Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe: The GOAT measure is championships 

Post#94 » by -Sammy- » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:01 am

fileman3 wrote:
dynamic duo wrote:fantastic player though, top 20 all-time.


20 is a little too low bro, I have Kobe 12th all time....which is obviously very high praise, the guy was a great player


That's where I have him as well; some days he slides up to 11th, and some days it's a two way tie for 11th between him and Oscar Robertson.

I don't have beef with anyone who puts him in the top 10, though. Top five? I'll argue with that, and I'll argue with anyone who has him outside the top 13-14, too.
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Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe: The GOAT measure is championships 

Post#95 » by euroleague » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:01 am

BombsquadSammy wrote:
euroleague wrote:
BombsquadSammy wrote:
No, KD is on the championship team. 'The champion' is a singular noun-- if KD is the champion, then his teammates cannot also be the champion unless there are 12+ the champions, which obviously doesn't make sense. If there are 12+ champions, why aren't there 12+ Larry O'Brien trophies?

Because there's only one champion, and the champion is the Golden State Warriors. KD is part of the championship team, but he is not himself 'the champion.' Kevin Durant didn't beat an entire basketball team-- another basketball team did. The O'Brien wasn't awarded to Kevin Durant-- it was awarded to Golden State.



If everything you've written here is true (which it is), then this



can't be true. You cannot simultaneously acknowledge the importance of all those other people and dismiss them as not being part of the winning process.

Take Kevin Durant off the Warriors and they don't win 2017. But take Durant's strength and cardiovascular endurance away, take away his precision shooting the ball, take away the plays he's been trained to run with the other players (and take their skills, health, and athleticism away as well-- and while we're at it, take away those players, who aren't being drafted or scouted or traded for or paid without a front office, scouts, analysts, and a GM), and the Warriors aren't winning, either.


Trainers are important- but less important than HCA because fans are more important. Family is more important (obviously). High school coaches and college coaches are important. Who a player hang out with is important.

Because someone helped the player doesn't mean they won an nba championship. The player won.


The personnel who are assembled specifically to create and sustain the unit that does the winning is the team.

It's worth noting that the viewpoint I'm articulating is actually the official stance of the NBA, not Sammy's uninformed opinion; this is why the coaching staff, trainers, medical staff, scouting and analysis teams, and front-office executives all get championship rings when a team wins. The NBA awards 40+ rings to each champion, and all 40+ rings are exactly the same. The NBA's viewpoint is my viewpoint.

euroleague wrote:
Every player on the Warriors 17 is currently the nba champ. KD is. Curry is.


Image

This is basketball-reference.com's list of the last 10 NBA champions. You'll notice that Durant's name doesn't appear on this list; nor does Curry's or any other player's. According to BBRef.com, then, the Golden State Warriors, not KD and Curry, are the NBA champions.

If you consult NBA'com, which is the official website of the league, you'll find that they agree with BBRef.com. Respectfully, I'm going with the NBA's take on this.


I'm also going with the nba take... if you click on the winners name you see the team - and the coach has an HM, as does the GM
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Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe: The GOAT measure is championships 

Post#96 » by zimpy27 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:07 am

BombsquadSammy wrote:
euroleague wrote:
BombsquadSammy wrote:
No, the players are on the court playing. Playing is part of winning-- the most important part, to be sure--, but to say that the only thing that matters is what happens between the lines is to ignore reality, which is that what happens in the realms of coaching, training, scouting, and healing creates what's put in between the lines to do the playing.

Otherwise, why have the Pops and Phils and Reds and Rileys at all? Why have trainers and scouts? Why do we care what Phil said here and why is there a thread about it if the only thing that matters is what happens on the hardwood?




No, it's not. Kevin Durant is not the 2017 NBA champion-- Golden State is. There are no title banners hanging in any player's living room-- they hang in the arena, where the entire team plays and works. Championship trophies have team names on them, not individuals' names. None of these are matters of opinion or interpretations; they're all facts.


KD is the champion. That can't be disputed. His teammates are as well.


No, KD is on the championship team. 'The champion' is a singular noun-- if KD is the champion, then his teammates cannot also be the champion unless there are 12+ the champions, which obviously doesn't make sense. If there are 12+ champions, why aren't there 12+ Larry O'Brien trophies?

Because there's only one champion, and the champion is the Golden State Warriors. KD is part of the championship team, but he is not himself 'the champion.' Kevin Durant didn't beat an entire basketball team-- another basketball team did. The O'Brien wasn't awarded to Kevin Durant-- it was awarded to Golden State.

euroleague wrote:The coach is there to coach and create a system - sure, he is also important. GM pays and trades, so obviously one who gets better players together is good.

Trainers are there to develop the players...Coaching is important...


If everything you've written here is true (which it is), then this

euroleague wrote:In the end, it's the players.


can't be true. You cannot simultaneously acknowledge the importance of all those other people and dismiss them as not being part of the winning process.

Take Kevin Durant off the Warriors and they don't win 2017. But take Durant's strength and cardiovascular endurance away, take away his precision shooting the ball, take away the plays he's been trained to run with the other players (and take their skills, health, and athleticism away as well-- and while we're at it, take away those players, who aren't being drafted or scouted or traded for or paid without a front office, scouts, analysts, and a GM), and the Warriors aren't winning, either.


You've gone too meta for this board.

GOAT isn't really measured by rings but it is a form of evidence. I can't imagine making a case for a GOAT if they never helped a team win a championship.
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Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe: The GOAT measure is championships 

Post#97 » by LivingLegend » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:10 am

fileman3 wrote:
dynamic duo wrote:fantastic player though, top 20 all-time.


20 is a little too low bro, I have Kobe 12th all time....which is obviously very high praise, the guy was a great player


I have him around the same--If I really had to make a list he might come in at #10. He is the basketball equivalent to Steve Young in QB rankings to me. Extremely good, all time good but sort of in that second tier looking in on a handful of clearly better all time players.

It also goes back to my point of Kobe being much more of a cult hero than a player in legitimate discussion as the GOAT. I dont know if it was his attitude, play style or big market but he essentially was the originator of basketball Stans. Fans that worship the ground he walks and will defend the guy till they die although deep down they all know he is not near even top 3.

He is essentially beloved by everybody for being a better player than he actually was--but that doesnt take away from the fact that he was still really really good.
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Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe: The GOAT measure is championships 

Post#98 » by -Sammy- » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:11 am

zimpy27 wrote:
Spoiler:
BombsquadSammy wrote:
euroleague wrote:
KD is the champion. That can't be disputed. His teammates are as well.


No, KD is on the championship team. 'The champion' is a singular noun-- if KD is the champion, then his teammates cannot also be the champion unless there are 12+ the champions, which obviously doesn't make sense. If there are 12+ champions, why aren't there 12+ Larry O'Brien trophies?

Because there's only one champion, and the champion is the Golden State Warriors. KD is part of the championship team, but he is not himself 'the champion.' Kevin Durant didn't beat an entire basketball team-- another basketball team did. The O'Brien wasn't awarded to Kevin Durant-- it was awarded to Golden State.

euroleague wrote:The coach is there to coach and create a system - sure, he is also important. GM pays and trades, so obviously one who gets better players together is good.

Trainers are there to develop the players...Coaching is important...


If everything you've written here is true (which it is), then this

euroleague wrote:In the end, it's the players.


can't be true. You cannot simultaneously acknowledge the importance of all those other people and dismiss them as not being part of the winning process.

Take Kevin Durant off the Warriors and they don't win 2017. But take Durant's strength and cardiovascular endurance away, take away his precision shooting the ball, take away the plays he's been trained to run with the other players (and take their skills, health, and athleticism away as well-- and while we're at it, take away those players, who aren't being drafted or scouted or traded for or paid without a front office, scouts, analysts, and a GM), and the Warriors aren't winning, either.


You've gone too meta for this board.


GOAT isn't really measured by rings but it is a form of evidence. I can't imagine making a case for a GOAT if they never helped a team win a championship.


On this, we agree completely. To my way of thinking, saying that rings aren't ANY kind of factor in determining GOATs is as wrongheaded as saying that rings are the ONLY factor. What I'm calling for is balance in weighing factors.
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Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe: The GOAT measure is championships 

Post#99 » by -Sammy- » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:12 am

euroleague wrote:
Spoiler:
BombsquadSammy wrote:
euroleague wrote:
Trainers are important- but less important than HCA because fans are more important. Family is more important (obviously). High school coaches and college coaches are important. Who a player hang out with is important.

Because someone helped the player doesn't mean they won an nba championship. The player won.


The personnel who are assembled specifically to create and sustain the unit that does the winning is the team.

It's worth noting that the viewpoint I'm articulating is actually the official stance of the NBA, not Sammy's uninformed opinion; this is why the coaching staff, trainers, medical staff, scouting and analysis teams, and front-office executives all get championship rings when a team wins. The NBA awards 40+ rings to each champion, and all 40+ rings are exactly the same. The NBA's viewpoint is my viewpoint.

euroleague wrote:
Every player on the Warriors 17 is currently the nba champ. KD is. Curry is.


Image

This is basketball-reference.com's list of the last 10 NBA champions. You'll notice that Durant's name doesn't appear on this list; nor does Curry's or any other player's. According to BBRef.com, then, the Golden State Warriors, not KD and Curry, are the NBA champions.

If you consult NBA'com, which is the official website of the league, you'll find that they agree with BBRef.com. Respectfully, I'm going with the NBA's take on this.


I'm also going with the nba take... if you click on the winners name you see the team - and the coach has an HM, as does the GM


I don't follow you.
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Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe: The GOAT measure is championships 

Post#100 » by mysticOscar » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:16 am

BombsquadSammy wrote:
mysticOscar wrote:
BombsquadSammy wrote:
I used the example of one soldier to illustrate that his military's performance doesn't tell us whether or not he's the best soldier.

I related that to the example of one ballplayer to illustrate that his team's performance doesn't tell us whether or not he's the best ballplayer.


But thats what im saying....u are under rating the impact of a player to winning games.


You're taking the analogy too literally. I'm not saying that each player factors into his team's success to the same degree that each soldier does his military's; I'm saying they both factor the same way.

mysticOscar wrote:It really baffles me how u think that players dont have impact on championships


Please direct me to the post where I wrote that players don't impact championships.


Your exaggerated example is really confusing ur stance.

If u think that a balanced approach on the approach and need to look at all aspect (including championships) rather than just rings alone....then im fine with that.

Ur example made it seem like u think that a player has minimum or close to no impact of the outcome of a game

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