Star Wars Episode VIII - SPOILERS

[Dr. Detfink]

Overall, I liked this movie but it had a quibble with the directorial choices...that said, this is a big F-U to the Force Awakens. All the mysteries set up, the Kylo-Ren helmet toy...all minimized. It was GLORIOUS.

[E-Balla]

The Resistance just destroyed the Starkiller base in the Force Awakens. So that is a major change in status.

It is... In The Force Awakens... At the start of TLJ Starkiller Base is destroyed already so why is this relevant?

It went from the Resistance being triumphant and dealing a major blow to the First Order to the First Order taking over the board now that there was no Republic support.

Outside of them not having support (and we had no idea whether they had support anyway so this is completely irrelevant) all of that was the status quo. Starkiller base was destroyed but they were already on their last legs anyway. I mean this movie literally picks up at the end of the last movie and it starts off with them nearly being completely destroyed.

Even though they lost the major asset of the Starkiller base they were strong enough to wipe out what was left of the Resistance who are now without supplies, equipment and even aid. That is a major change from the Force Awakens status of the Resistance. Hell, the Resistance even lost all its top generals. That the Resistance has to start from scratch is a big gamechanger.

HOW IS THAT A CHANGE! AT THE END OF TFA THEY ALREADY LOST THOSE GENERALS! At the end of TFA they just lost Starkiller base but still had Hux and Kylo (the only 2 guys that matter). At the end of this movie they don't have Starkiller base but they have Hux and Kylo. Its literally the same.

Kylo was the lead antagonist in the Force Awakens but he was serving under the direction of Snoke. He and Hux were on the same level in the organistion. Ren didn't command Hux nor the First Order forces. Now he does. That is a major change because it is his direction that decides which way the First Order went.

How? How is any of this major? Kylo literally has the same goals as Snoke. The First Order will literally keep doing the same **** they did under Snoke.

And Ren being conflicted was the central point of TFA. After killing Han, when he thought it would make him strong, led him to weakness.

This was literally retconned into this movie. Snoke basically said that word for word so we had justification to hit the reset button on Kylo's character growth and repeat it again.

He was still too weak to kill his mother. Now he has killed Snoke and assumed his full mantle. He has chosen to be evil. He has chosen to wall himself off from the light. That is a major change from the TFA's run to save him from the clutches of Snoke. To paraphrase Leia "Han, bring our son back." Now she's given up on him. She knows Ben Solo is gone.

She said bring our son back BEFORE Han was killed. The killing of Han was also the death of Ben/birth of Kylo. There's a reason you aren't supporting your argument with TFA scenes and are instead using **** parts of TLJ. They literally redid Kylo's story again and included hamfisted exposition from Snoke to let us know they were doing that because the Kylo from the end of TFA would've killed Leia.

Luke being a martyr involves there being some self sacrifice. You can't be a living martyr and he was alive in TFA. He was a legend then, yes. But now he made a sacrifice to preserve the Resistance. That is a major change. There is no more Luke Skywalker. How can you say that was status quo from the last movie.

Because there was no Luke in the last movie. He was a plot device not a character. Outside of the cliffhanger Luke wasn't relevant at all. Luke could've been in one scene to wrap up Rey's training. It wasn't major.

Rey's parentage did have a pay off. It said the next great hero doesn't have to be from a family we already know. Rey was Kylo's opposite side. Where he wanted to rid himself of familial connection, Rey wanted that family so badly. Rey wanted to be a Solo or a Skywalker, but in truth, she comes from nobodies and has ascended her beginnings. Ren said in the first film. So it's true then, you're just a scavenger. Rey realizing her own self worth and letting go of the past was a major part of her character development.

FOH. They spent 20 damn minutes on the mystery of her parents in TFA and 15 in TLJ for that. Waste of time and effort especially for a red herring. Made the trilogy as a whole disjointed and its just dumb.

You're being ridiculous to say nothing has changed in the middle movie of a trilogy. Nothing like Han in carbonite? Kylo has taken over the first Order. The Resistance is 30 people with no allies. The greatest light side Jedi, Luke Skywalker, is no more. Rey has to carry on the ways of the Jedi while barely being trained. The Resistance is truly on the run and Ren is on the rise, finally having achieved more than Vader ever did. He's actually greater than Vader. He won in this movie.

Kylo took over the First Order... To do the same **** Snoke did. Han being in carbonite was literally written as a way to kill off Han. You basically compared killing off one of the top 3 characters with Kylo technically leading the First Order (but he will still do the only thing we've seen the First Order do so far).

The exact number of people in the Resistance doesn't matter so who cares if they went from barely any people to even less people? It doesn't serve the story and it isn't meaningful especially when we don't have exact numbers and they were already losing constantly to the First Order head to head.

Luke was already no more in TFA. He's not in the damn movie and Rey had to carry on the jedi with no training at the end of TFA which is why she looked for training from Luke (now instead of Luke she has the books - again its thematically the same ****).

The fact that you said "the resistance is truly on the run" let's me know you realize they were ALREADY ON THE RUN AT THE END OF THE LAST **** MOVIE! Nothing changed that isn't superficial.

[Oscirus]

From Variety, a point that last article somehow leaves out:

The tentpole has posted one of the top ten Mondays of all-time with $21.6 million domestically to lift the four-day total to $241.6 million with 31% of schoolchildren on vacation. “Star Wars: The Force Awakens” leads that Monday list with $40.1 million on its fourth day, when 77% of schoolchildren were on vacation.

And the media isn't saying the trolls are the ONLY reason, but they are out there. Hell, SW reviews were even popping up on The Shape of Water reviews because the idiot bot trolls were too stupid to realize what they were doing. The movie is going to smash records and on other sites and aggregates, not just RT, the movie is doing just fine with people.

'

42 percent is till a big drop unless you're saying that kids were going to somehow make up that difference which we both know isn't true. Nobody's saying this is going to be a bomb, but let's not act like it's the success that media wants to pretend it is either.

And the media definitely knows what it's doing by releasing all these articles about trolls affecting ratings. The implication being that the only reason that there's such a huge disconnect between the rt score and the critic score is racist, sexist trolls.
See the ghostbusters playbook.

It's a drop, but it's still going to make a crap ton of money worldwide. And yes, the kids thing actually determines a lot of box office declines. I guarantee you'll see a smaller % decline once kids are out of school.

Oh it's going to be a huge success, and it already is. And I don't care what the media is implying, I'm just showing you facts, that it's not simply a matter of, OMG critics were paid off and the fans hate it. Not that black and white.

To say that kids would make up for a 42 percent drop is disingenuous at best. At best it would be maybe a 32 percent drop instead. That's even pushing it.

Nobody's arguing whether or not it's a success. Even the most rabid hater acknowledges that. But if the franchise keeps bleeding fanatics ( the people who'd view these movies five or more times) at it's current rate, then it's going to be in trouble in the future. As for the media, it's not only asinine but also dangerous for them to give a national voice to such hate in order to try and prove that the critics aren't disney bitches. If critics would stop grading Star Wars on a curve, they wouldn't have these problems.

[Oscirus]

The exact number of people in the Resistance doesn't matter so who cares if they went from barely any people to even less people? It doesn't serve the story and it isn't meaningful especially when we don't have exact numbers and they were already losing constantly to the First Order head to head.

Not to mention it was set up that there was an unknown amount of people that would likely be helping them in the next one.

[shtolky]

'

42 percent is till a big drop unless you're saying that kids were going to somehow make up that difference which we both know isn't true. Nobody's saying this is going to be a bomb, but let's not act like it's the success that media wants to pretend it is either.

And the media definitely knows what it's doing by releasing all these articles about trolls affecting ratings. The implication being that the only reason that there's such a huge disconnect between the rt score and the critic score is racist, sexist trolls.
See the ghostbusters playbook.

It's a drop, but it's still going to make a crap ton of money worldwide. And yes, the kids thing actually determines a lot of box office declines. I guarantee you'll see a smaller % decline once kids are out of school.

Oh it's going to be a huge success, and it already is. And I don't care what the media is implying, I'm just showing you facts, that it's not simply a matter of, OMG critics were paid off and the fans hate it. Not that black and white.

To say that kids would make up for a 42 percent drop is disingenuous at best. At best it would be maybe a 32 percent drop instead. That's even pushing it.

Nobody's arguing whether or not it's a success. Even the most rabid hater acknowledges that. But if the franchise keeps bleeding fanatics ( the people who'd view these movies five or more times) at it's current rate, then it's going to be in trouble in the future. As for the media, it's not only asinine but also dangerous for them to give a national voice to such hate in order to try and prove that the critics aren't disney bitches. If critics would stop grading Star Wars on a curve, they wouldn't have these problems.

I absolutely did not say that the kids alone would make up for a 42% drop. Sequels in franchises often make less than prior movies, especially in star wars. But it is a factor. And there is not a chance that this franchise will be in trouble. That's hyperbole saying that the franchise is "bleeding fanatics." Even if all the fanatics left, the franchise would still make a crap ton of money. Also, who says they are grading it on a curve? Because YOU didn't like the movie? What's with all the conspiracy theories? I am a regular guy who is not a film critic and I loved it. Am I a shill for myself?

[Oscirus]

It's a drop, but it's still going to make a crap ton of money worldwide. And yes, the kids thing actually determines a lot of box office declines. I guarantee you'll see a smaller % decline once kids are out of school.

Oh it's going to be a huge success, and it already is. And I don't care what the media is implying, I'm just showing you facts, that it's not simply a matter of, OMG critics were paid off and the fans hate it. Not that black and white.

To say that kids would make up for a 42 percent drop is disingenuous at best. At best it would be maybe a 32 percent drop instead. That's even pushing it.

Nobody's arguing whether or not it's a success. Even the most rabid hater acknowledges that. But if the franchise keeps bleeding fanatics ( the people who'd view these movies five or more times) at it's current rate, then it's going to be in trouble in the future. As for the media, it's not only asinine but also dangerous for them to give a national voice to such hate in order to try and prove that the critics aren't disney bitches. If critics would stop grading Star Wars on a curve, they wouldn't have these problems.

I absolutely did not say that the kids alone would make up for a 42% drop. Sequels in franchises often make less than prior movies, especially in star wars. But it is a factor. And there is not a chance that this franchise will be in trouble. That's hyperbole saying that the franchise is "bleeding fanatics." Even if all the fanatics left, the franchise would still make a crap ton of money. Also, who says they are grading it on a curve? Because YOU didn't like the movie? What's with all the conspiracy theories? I am a regular guy who is not a film critic and I loved it. Am I a shill for myself?

Only reason why this is even an issue is because the media's talking about it. Only reason why we're talking about this is because you posted the article. I'm not the one posting conspiracy theories.

Isn't the complaint that the people who didn't like the movie were fanboys? So now that it doesn't your narrative, now it's hyperbole?

You don't buy star wars to make money, you buy it to make star wars money, if it's not making that then it's no longer a feasible prospect. Celebrate the pyrrhic victories if you want to.

[shtolky]

To say that kids would make up for a 42 percent drop is disingenuous at best. At best it would be maybe a 32 percent drop instead. That's even pushing it.

Nobody's arguing whether or not it's a success. Even the most rabid hater acknowledges that. But if the franchise keeps bleeding fanatics ( the people who'd view these movies five or more times) at it's current rate, then it's going to be in trouble in the future. As for the media, it's not only asinine but also dangerous for them to give a national voice to such hate in order to try and prove that the critics aren't disney bitches. If critics would stop grading Star Wars on a curve, they wouldn't have these problems.

I absolutely did not say that the kids alone would make up for a 42% drop. Sequels in franchises often make less than prior movies, especially in star wars. But it is a factor. And there is not a chance that this franchise will be in trouble. That's hyperbole saying that the franchise is "bleeding fanatics." Even if all the fanatics left, the franchise would still make a crap ton of money. Also, who says they are grading it on a curve? Because YOU didn't like the movie? What's with all the conspiracy theories? I am a regular guy who is not a film critic and I loved it. Am I a shill for myself?

Only reason why this is even an issue is because the media's talking about it. Only reason why we're talking about this is because you posted the article. I'm not the one posting conspiracy theories.

Isn't the complaint that the people who didn't like the movie were fanboys? So now that it doesn't your narrative, now it's hyperbole?

You don't buy star wars to make money, you buy it to make star wars money, if it's not making that then it's no longer a feasible prospect. Celebrate the pyrrhic victories if you want to.

Who is posting conspiracy theories? I don't even know what you're talking about and it doesn't matter. We have differing opinions on a damn movie that's going to make over a billion dollars. Who cares. You buy it to make star wars money over...real money? Huh? Pyrrhic victories? I'm sure Disney is FURIOUS at swimming in this cash. They should burn it all down because some people don't like the movie. Talk about hyperbole.

http://www.newsweek.com/how-much-money-did-last-jedi-make-755569

"But wait, there's more. By Tuesday—mere days after opening weekend—that global number was up to an estimated $536 million. (Or $262 million, for the domestic box office.) Deadline reports the film saw the fourth best December Tuesday gross in box office history—impressive, considering school was still in session for most kids."

Disney must be paying Newsweek under the table to report facts.

[Biggie Smalls]

This movie was just utter trash and everybody that defends it should be ashamed of themselves. Disney killed a legendary movie series. RIP

[IllmaticHandler]

The only thing I don't like about Kylo's character is that the First Order comes across as incompetent buffoons and it cheapens his character for me. It's hard to take them seriously between the jokes and their stupid decisions. I'm glad they finally toned down the Nazi thing but they feel so non-threatening in this movie. Kylo, who's only in the First Order because of Snoke, kills his mentor and now takes over the First Order. I don't know, it just feels so quick and cheap.

Considering the Rebel Alliance still has most of its original leadership, they should have been wiped out. They dont seem as tactical as the original empire. Its why I said there is no seriousness to this movie. you never feel the First Order is a threat.

[NBA Fan 1234]

The only thing I don't like about Kylo's character is that the First Order comes across as incompetent buffoons and it cheapens his character for me. It's hard to take them seriously between the jokes and their stupid decisions. I'm glad they finally toned down the Nazi thing but they feel so non-threatening in this movie. Kylo, who's only in the First Order because of Snoke, kills his mentor and now takes over the First Order. I don't know, it just feels so quick and cheap.

Considering the Rebel Alliance still has most of its original leadership, they should have been wiped out. They dont seem as tactical as the original empire. Its why I said there is no seriousness to this movie. you never feel the First Order is a threat.

My issue with the first order is that it's the empire...just with a different name. Why not just call it the Empire but with new leadership instead of trying to rebrand it?

[Oscirus]

I absolutely did not say that the kids alone would make up for a 42% drop. Sequels in franchises often make less than prior movies, especially in star wars. But it is a factor. And there is not a chance that this franchise will be in trouble. That's hyperbole saying that the franchise is "bleeding fanatics." Even if all the fanatics left, the franchise would still make a crap ton of money. Also, who says they are grading it on a curve? Because YOU didn't like the movie? What's with all the conspiracy theories? I am a regular guy who is not a film critic and I loved it. Am I a shill for myself?

Only reason why this is even an issue is because the media's talking about it. Only reason why we're talking about this is because you posted the article. I'm not the one posting conspiracy theories.

Isn't the complaint that the people who didn't like the movie were fanboys? So now that it doesn't your narrative, now it's hyperbole?

You don't buy star wars to make money, you buy it to make star wars money, if it's not making that then it's no longer a feasible prospect. Celebrate the pyrrhic victories if you want to.

Who is posting conspiracy theories? I don't even know what you're talking about and it doesn't matter. We have differing opinions on a damn movie that's going to make over a billion dollars. Who cares. You buy it to make star wars money over...real money? Huh? Pyrrhic victories? I'm sure Disney is FURIOUS at swimming in this cash. They should burn it all down because some people don't like the movie. Talk about hyperbole.

http://www.newsweek.com/how-much-money-did-last-jedi-make-755569

"But wait, there's more. By Tuesday—mere days after opening weekend—that global number was up to an estimated $536 million. (Or $262 million, for the domestic box office.) Deadline reports the film saw the fourth best December Tuesday gross in box office history—impressive, considering school was still in session for most kids."

Disney must be paying Newsweek under the table to report facts.

You apparently do which is why you keep blaming trolls, alt righters and god knows what else for it's bad ratings.

And continuing to post numbers when I conceded that it's not a bust it's just funny to me. Who are you really trying to prove all this to? Say it with me 42 percent drop off on monday and tuesday, but hey keep ignoring that or blaming it on kids if that makes you feel better.

[seren]

I watch these movies to be entertained. I could care less about continuity or what will come next. Overall, I was entertained. Certainly nothing close to the original trilogy but significantly better than the prequels. I would probably rank it 6th among all the nine movies so far. Trilogy, standalone, JJ one and this one.

[BLACKFEET 2010]

I get it now. Some people just like arguing and being miserable about everything. I get it.

[don't panac]

You know they going to change so much in the future, the fact that Yoda burned everything is telling. Thats a symbol of craziness to come. I think its pretty Lame to Say that Rey is a "new hope" and she has NO understood of certain things or knowledge of history. That's terrible writing if you ask me. She has no history or extensive training. Luke at the Minimum had Ben and Yoda, to explain things. Only thing Rey learned from Luke is why he ran and what the force is. It would have been better if she comes back to the Island and finds out stuff from those texts. Using Yoda in this manner was not the best they could to tell something "different". You basically threw a kid out there with a week of force training and destroyed everything for her to grow from. It must have taken luke a minute to find all those relics. Its actually very dangerous to have Rey out there so much alone. I assume Lupitas character plays a role in the next film as she might be the only one left with any kind of knowledge.

Rey already has the all the sacred texts on the Millennium Falcon.
it was quick, but you could see them in a drawer when Finn takes out a blanket for Rose at the end.
it was a flash, but at the theater when it showed i turned to my son, a we shared a "did you just see what i saw?" moment, followed by a big grin

[prophet_of_rage]

The Resistance just destroyed the Starkiller base in the Force Awakens. So that is a major change in status.

It is... In The Force Awakens... At the start of TLJ Starkiller Base is destroyed already so why is this relevant?

The Resistance won in TFA. Kylo was laid low and Snoke, Hux, Ren and Phasma were fleeing. When we see the Resistance in the Last Jedi it is being chased down like a dog and systematically destroyed. They went from upper hand to losers pretty quickly. And their daring escape attempt with Poe and the bombers cost them a lot.

It went from the Resistance being triumphant and dealing a major blow to the First Order to the First Order taking over the board now that there was no Republic support.

Outside of them not having support (and we had no idea whether they had support anyway so this is completely irrelevant) all of that was the status quo. Starkiller base was destroyed but they were already on their last legs anyway. I mean this movie literally picks up at the end of the last movie and it starts off with them nearly being completely destroyed.

Of course we know they had support in the TFA. Where do you think they got their supplies? The Republic. It was destroyed to take them down a peg. So we're seeing the fallout from that in the Last Jedi. Ended TFA winning started TLJ getting wiped out.

Even though they lost the major asset of the Starkiller base they were strong enough to wipe out what was left of the Resistance who are now without supplies, equipment and even aid. That is a major change from the Force Awakens status of the Resistance. Hell, the Resistance even lost all its top generals. That the Resistance has to start from scratch is a big gamechanger.

HOW IS THAT A CHANGE! AT THE END OF TFA THEY ALREADY LOST THOSE GENERALS! At the end of TFA they just lost Starkiller base but still had Hux and Kylo (the only 2 guys that matter). At the end of this movie they don't have Starkiller base but they have Hux and Kylo. Its literally the same.

Reread what I wrote. The Resistance lost its generals in TLJ not in TFA. Akbar was alive in TFA. He died in TLJ. The Resistance had a command structure in TFA they had to redo it in TLJ.

Kylo was the lead antagonist in the Force Awakens but he was serving under the direction of Snoke. He and Hux were on the same level in the organistion. Ren didn't command Hux nor the First Order forces. Now he does. That is a major change because it is his direction that decides which way the First Order went.

How? How is any of this major? Kylo literally has the same goals as Snoke. The First Order will literally keep doing the same **** they did under Snoke.

Snoke's goal was to kill the past? Snoke's goal was to rule the galaxy with his own makeshift family to demonstrate that he was his own man? Snoke's motivations are very different from Kylo's. Motivations are different than goals. And we don't know Kylo's goals as leader of the First Order now.

And Ren being conflicted was the central point of TFA. After killing Han, when he thought it would make him strong, led him to weakness.

This was literally retconned into this movie. Snoke basically said that word for word so we had justification to hit the reset button on Kylo's character growth and repeat it again.

Actually, it was in the TFA novelization. It was not retconned at all. The killing of Han left Ren ambivalent. That was not a retcon.

He was still too weak to kill his mother. Now he has killed Snoke and assumed his full mantle. He has chosen to be evil. He has chosen to wall himself off from the light. That is a major change from the TFA's run to save him from the clutches of Snoke. To paraphrase Leia "Han, bring our son back." Now she's given up on him. She knows Ben Solo is gone.

She said bring our son back BEFORE Han was killed. The killing of Han was also the death of Ben/birth of Kylo. There's a reason you aren't supporting your argument with TFA scenes and are instead using **** parts of TLJ. They literally redid Kylo's story again and included hamfisted exposition from Snoke to let us know they were doing that because the Kylo from the end of TFA would've killed Leia.

You're wrong here. I'm using scenes from TLJ because the transformation is relevant and we're talking about change from TFA to TLJ. In TFA Leia was saying "Han, bring our son back." In TLJ she was saying he is beyond salvation. They did not redo Kylo's story. They moved it along.

Luke being a martyr involves there being some self sacrifice. You can't be a living martyr and he was alive in TFA. He was a legend then, yes. But now he made a sacrifice to preserve the Resistance. That is a major change. There is no more Luke Skywalker. How can you say that was status quo from the last movie.

Because there was no Luke in the last movie. He was a plot device not a character. Outside of the cliffhanger Luke wasn't relevant at all. Luke could've been in one scene to wrap up Rey's training. It wasn't major.

It is major because it answers the biggest question that was the basis for TFA. Who is Luke Skywalker? Abrams says that was the question asked of him and it is set as the big mystery in TFA. The opening crawl begins with "Luke Skywalker has disappeared ..." Now we know why and how. That's not major to you? And that he is now gone isn't major? The protagonist of the Original Trilogy's end isn't major?

Rey's parentage did have a pay off. It said the next great hero doesn't have to be from a family we already know. Rey was Kylo's opposite side. Where he wanted to rid himself of familial connection, Rey wanted that family so badly. Rey wanted to be a Solo or a Skywalker, but in truth, she comes from nobodies and has ascended her beginnings. Ren said in the first film. So it's true then, you're just a scavenger. Rey realizing her own self worth and letting go of the past was a major part of her character development.

FOH. They spent 20 damn minutes on the mystery of her parents in TFA and 15 in TLJ for that. Waste of time and effort especially for a red herring. Made the trilogy as a whole disjointed and its just dumb.

How is it a red herring? In TFA Kylo says "So it's true then, you're nothing but a scavenger." Maz says "Look inside your heart, you know the truth. Who ever it is you are waiting for is not coming back." It would have been beyond stupid for Rey to be a Skywalker, a Solo or a Kenobi. The point of TLJ is as Luke says "The Force doesn't belong to the Jedi. That's arrogance. The Force doesn't belong to the Kenobis." In the prequels there were hundreds of jedi who were not special. TLJ says just because you're a Force sensitive or user doesn't mean you're a Jedi or Sith, either. Anybody any where can be connected to the Force. That is a major change in the focus and direction of Star Wars which, except for Rogue One, has always been about the Skywalkers.

You're being ridiculous to say nothing has changed in the middle movie of a trilogy. Nothing like Han in carbonite? Kylo has taken over the first Order. The Resistance is 30 people with no allies. The greatest light side Jedi, Luke Skywalker, is no more. Rey has to carry on the ways of the Jedi while barely being trained. The Resistance is truly on the run and Ren is on the rise, finally having achieved more than Vader ever did. He's actually greater than Vader. He won in this movie.

Kylo took over the First Order... To do the same **** Snoke did. Han being in carbonite was literally written as a way to kill off Han. You basically compared killing off one of the top 3 characters with Kylo technically leading the First Order (but he will still do the only thing we've seen the First Order do so far).

The exact number of people in the Resistance doesn't matter so who cares if they went from barely any people to even less people? It doesn't serve the story and it isn't meaningful especially when we don't have exact numbers and they were already losing constantly to the First Order head to head.

Luke was already no more in TFA. He's not in the damn movie and Rey had to carry on the jedi with no training at the end of TFA which is why she looked for training from Luke (now instead of Luke she has the books - again its thematically the same ****).

The fact that you said "the resistance is truly on the run" let's me know you realize they were ALREADY ON THE RUN AT THE END OF THE LAST **** MOVIE! Nothing changed that isn't superficial.

We never saw the Resistance on the run. We saw them win and find Luke Skywalker and we had hope for their next encounter. They were not on the run at all.

The Resistance and the Rebels before them have always had advanced technology and weapons at their disposal. Think they had X-wings, Y-wings, B-wings, cruisers, frigates, droids, cannons. They always had enough tech to pose a threat. They always had equal numbers to match an imperial or first order assault. Now they don't. That's what I mean by truly on the run because that hadn't happened in other movies. There were always secret rebel bases and more people. Now the entire resistance is flying in the Millennium Falcon and has to rebuild. We've never ever seen that in Star Wars.

I'd understand the criticism of the Leia force pulling through space. I'd get a criticism that Finn and Rose are not necessary to this movie's plot. I'd accept that certain characters like Phasma and BB-9E were unnecessary marketing ploys. (Hello Porgs.) I'd hear that, but to say nothing changes is blindly untrue.

[prophet_of_rage]

The only thing I don't like about Kylo's character is that the First Order comes across as incompetent buffoons and it cheapens his character for me. It's hard to take them seriously between the jokes and their stupid decisions. I'm glad they finally toned down the Nazi thing but they feel so non-threatening in this movie. Kylo, who's only in the First Order because of Snoke, kills his mentor and now takes over the First Order. I don't know, it just feels so quick and cheap.

Considering the Rebel Alliance still has most of its original leadership, they should have been wiped out. They dont seem as tactical as the original empire. Its why I said there is no seriousness to this movie. you never feel the First Order is a threat.

My issue with the first order is that it's the empire...just with a different name. Why not just call it the Empire but with new leadership instead of trying to rebrand it?

It was a theory developed from the idea that what is the Nazis who fled Germany to Argentina got together and started a new revolution.

One thing about Star Wars that we see is that the galaxy is not doing well. It isn't a particularly prosperous place. It is not the Utopian Star trek world where there is plenty. So the first Order is smaller and less competent than the Empire. The resistance is smaller than the Rebel Alliance. But the First Order did destroy the Republic in TFA and wiped out most of the resistance in TLJ so they are a credible in universe threat.

[E-Balla]

We never saw the Resistance on the run. We saw them win and find Luke Skywalker and we had hope for their next encounter. They were not on the run at all.

Ok let me break this down step by step. At the end of TFA they just beat Starkiller base and found Luke. What's next though? They're still on their base planet, they've still had most of their forces decimated, and the First Order is still coming to destroy them. There's no way a movie taking place directly after the end of TFA wouldn't start with them being on the run. We didn't see them being chased in the actual movie but the First Order chasing them down is the only logical next step in the story. That's why at the start of this movie they're on the brink of destruction - it had to start that way to be connected to the end of last movie.

The Resistance and the Rebels before them have always had advanced technology and weapons at their disposal. Think they had X-wings, Y-wings, B-wings, cruisers, frigates, droids, cannons. They always had enough tech to pose a threat. They always had equal numbers to match an imperial or first order assault. Now they don't. That's what I mean by truly on the run because that hadn't happened in other movies. There were always secret rebel bases and more people. Now the entire resistance is flying in the Millennium Falcon and has to rebuild. We've never ever seen that in Star Wars.

Again you care about the optics and not how any of this serves the narrative of the trilogy. No matter what vehicles they're in they were always the underdogs and they were already on the run at the start of the damn movie/end of the last movie.

I'd understand the criticism of the Leia force pulling through space. I'd get a criticism that Finn and Rose are not necessary to this movie's plot. I'd accept that certain characters like Phasma and BB-9E were unnecessary marketing ploys. (Hello Porgs.) I'd hear that, but to say nothing changes is blindly untrue.

You're only mentioning superficial changes. I'm done here you need to look into storytelling or learn to pay attention to movies more if you think this movie shook up the status quo because now they're in the millennium falcon instead of a cruiser.

[Gravy]

I left the theater feeling overwhelmed. There's some wacky stuff in there but overall I liked it. I really want to see it again; after reading discussions about it there's so much I missed the first time. It may be a movie that gets a better reception as time passes like Empire Strike Back.

[prophet_of_rage]

We never saw the Resistance on the run. We saw them win and find Luke Skywalker and we had hope for their next encounter. They were not on the run at all.

Ok let me break this down step by step. At the end of TFA they just beat Starkiller base and found Luke. What's next though? They're still on their base planet, they've still had most of their forces decimated, and the First Order is still coming to destroy them. There's no way a movie taking place directly after the end of TFA wouldn't start with them being on the run. We didn't see them being chased in the actual movie but the First Order chasing them down is the only logical next step in the story. That's why at the start of this movie they're on the brink of destruction - it had to start that way to be connected to the end of last movie.

The Resistance and the Rebels before them have always had advanced technology and weapons at their disposal. Think they had X-wings, Y-wings, B-wings, cruisers, frigates, droids, cannons. They always had enough tech to pose a threat. They always had equal numbers to match an imperial or first order assault. Now they don't. That's what I mean by truly on the run because that hadn't happened in other movies. There were always secret rebel bases and more people. Now the entire resistance is flying in the Millennium Falcon and has to rebuild. We've never ever seen that in Star Wars.

Again you care about the optics and not how any of this serves the narrative of the trilogy. No matter what vehicles they're in they were always the underdogs and they were already on the run at the start of the damn movie/end of the last movie.

I'd understand the criticism of the Leia force pulling through space. I'd get a criticism that Finn and Rose are not necessary to this movie's plot. I'd accept that certain characters like Phasma and BB-9E were unnecessary marketing ploys. (Hello Porgs.) I'd hear that, but to say nothing changes is blindly untrue.

You're only mentioning superficial changes. I'm done here you need to look into storytelling or learn to pay attention to movies more if you think this movie shook up the status quo because now they're in the millennium falcon instead of a cruiser.

Honestly, you have no idea about film or storytelling. You're just throwing words against a wall. Your initial argument was that there was no major change from TFA to TLJ like Han being frozen in carbonite.

You say a radical change in character behaviour (Leia) is nothing major, replacing the main protagonist is superficial then I have no idea what would represent somethig major to you.

You just want to hate the movie. Cool. Enjoy that. I'll enjoy TLJ's flawed brilliance. May the Force be with you.

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[IllmaticHandler]

The Resistance and the Rebels before them have always had advanced technology and weapons at their disposal. Think they had X-wings, Y-wings, B-wings, cruisers, frigates, droids, cannons. They always had enough tech to pose a threat. They always had equal numbers to match an imperial or first order assault. Now they don't. That's what I mean by truly on the run because that hadn't happened in other movies. There were always secret rebel bases and more people. Now the entire resistance is flying in the Millennium Falcon and has to rebuild. We've never ever seen that in Star Wars

This is totally incorrect. The rebels were NEVER equals to the Empire in Tech or Numbers. Tie FIghters were actually more advanced than Xwings. Rebels had nothing that could build AT ATs/Imperial walkers etc. The rebels did not even come close to having tech that could build a death star. They also did not even come close to having the money that the empire had. The rebels were ALWAYS on the run. They could NOT stand toe to toe overall. The rebels just had a strong resolve to keep fighting. They always took the most losses confronting the Empire in the grand scheme. A few battles won here and there dont change that. You said they had SECRET bases. That proves the rebels had to HIDE from the empire. The Empire and the Rebels were not equals. They truly posed no serious threat until a new hope and they attacked the death star at the end. And if it was not for Luke using the force...they would not have done it all. so there goes that. Having a force user on they side turned everything in they favor in the three movies. Luke is the one that saved Han. Not the Rebels. They knew where he was at and did nothing, but have Leia and Chewie come

Thats what made SW. SW. it was David(rebels) beating Goliath(empire)