GT: Sacramento Kings (10-20) vs BKLYN Nets (11-18) - Weds, Dec 20, 7:30 PM EST

[MrDollarBills]

I stand by my prediction based on talent. But in terms of discounting the possibility of injury, I concede that I was too optimistic.

You bet the over, right?

I still think based on what i've seen think that we may surpass my prediction of 28 wins tbh. i'd hold out hope.

Yeah, I bet the over but Ive lost hope and think we'll end the season around 23 wins.

Don't give up yet. Russell will be back and maybe we'll get a boost from integrating Okafor. I can see how the last 4 games have people down though, the team has executed poorly and the shooting has gone into the toilet. But we've got 4 more months of basketball to go.

[Roy Tarpley]

My concern is that the Nets are slightly better percentage wise without Dlo -- though admittedly with small sample size.

4-8 with Dlo (.33) and 6-11 without him (.35). And I'm not sure how Okafor is a benefit given his playing style, at least until Kenny works his magic.

At this point, I have turned into Prok and place no weight on W-L. This season should be strictly about development and getting RHJ, Levert, Dinwiddie, Allen lots of playing time, and seeing whether Okafor and Stauskas are redeemable. In fact, I'd love to see Doyle get some playing time given our inability to create offense sometimes. And I totally understand why Booker no longer made any sense for us, once wins went out the window.

[MrDollarBills]

Being 4-8 with him versus 6-11 without him doesn't really mean anything. we need him especially in the 4th qtrs when it calls for clutch buckets.

Wins are great for morale, but correct, the W/L doesn't weigh as much as guys making steps forward development wise

[Paradise]

Being 4-8 with him versus 6-11 without him doesn't really mean anything. we need him especially in the 4th qtrs when it calls for clutch buckets.

Wins are great for morale, but correct, the W/L doesn't weigh as much as guys making steps forward development wise

You got the GT, tonight?

[Prokorov]

According to you (and admittedly the mainstream sports pundits), the Nets had bottom five talent. My opinion was different. Agree to disagree. Let's revisit this next year!

outside of Lin fans, no one agrees with you. i think we found the issue. Lin fans have a distored view of his impact

Prok, would you please stop generalizing about Lin fans.

I'm a Lin fan and a longtime basketball fan (watched the game long before Lin was born). I didn't have any outrageous predictions on wins. They were in line in the low to mid 30s like others. If Ray thinks 40, I respect his opinion enough to go with that without saying he's just a Lin fan. And if Lin doesn't have impact, you have a short memory. What happened to the team last year when Lin came back the second time? They almost went .500. Lin and Russell together would make a big difference, IMO. But it's not meant to be, and the team will slump and roll this season. Russell may be back in January and that'll be a boost along with Okafor getting in shape. But injuries to Lin and Russell, which would have been a competitive backcourt, is significant.

And I think Kenny had a bad game. I don't have a problem with those criticizing him.

go to the prediciton thread.

look at the usernames for anyone who predicted 40+ wins.

its all the lin fans who came here once lin got traded here

thats not a genealization its an observation.

we've already addressed last year. it had more to do with not having an NBA calibur back up then it did with lin. we had to replace lin with three dleaguers and a second rounder. if we replaced lin with an nba player, the drop off wouldnt have been what it was

[bws94]

outside of Lin fans, no one agrees with you. i think we found the issue. Lin fans have a distored view of his impact

Prok, would you please stop generalizing about Lin fans.

I'm a Lin fan and a longtime basketball fan (watched the game long before Lin was born). I didn't have any outrageous predictions on wins. They were in line in the low to mid 30s like others. If Ray thinks 40, I respect his opinion enough to go with that without saying he's just a Lin fan. And if Lin doesn't have impact, you have a short memory. What happened to the team last year when Lin came back the second time? They almost went .500. Lin and Russell together would make a big difference, IMO. But it's not meant to be, and the team will slump and roll this season. Russell may be back in January and that'll be a boost along with Okafor getting in shape. But injuries to Lin and Russell, which would have been a competitive backcourt, is significant.

And I think Kenny had a bad game. I don't have a problem with those criticizing him.

go to the prediciton thread.

look at the usernames for anyone who predicted 40+ wins.

its all the lin fans who came here once lin got traded here

thats not a genealization its an observation.

we've already addressed last year. it had more to do with not having an NBA calibur back up then it did with lin. we had to replace lin with three dleaguers and a second rounder. if we replaced lin with an nba player, the drop off wouldnt have been what it was

But you do generalize about Lin fans. It's not useful and it is just crap-stirring. Most of the Lin fans, the extreme ones, that may have made those predictions aren't actively posting now. Roy shouldn't be lumped in with them, or me, or a bunch of other regular Lin fans who are also fans of basketball and make less extreme posts. A Lin fan is not a Lin fan. There are different types. The "Lin fan" stuff needs to stop. Just say extreme fan and we're good. Or at least extreme Lin fans. That general characterization doesn't sit well with me.

[bws94]

I thought the dynamic backcourt of Lin and Russell would make the Nets competitive. It's a synergy thing. I also thought Lin's leadership would help CLV, who does a few things like Lin (run the PnR, drive and finish, drive and dish). I thought two guys that could feed RHJ and big men would make a difference (Lin and Russell, and Din with one of them and on the 2nd unit). And Lin is still best in the open court and running the fast break and still one of the best at getting to the line, especially in crunch time. That makes a difference. And having both Lin and Russell to finish games is an asset. I didn't expect Lin to go down in the first game and Russell to miss a projected 6-8 weeks. None of us did.

It's nice that Dinwiddie is emerging and CLV and such. Fine. But I still think the strongest backcourt for this team is Russell/Lin. The more games they play without them, the more it shows. Add Dinwiddie and CLV to a healthy Russel and Lin, and that makes for more wins, IMO. How many more? I'm not sure. It depends on many factors, including the health of other teams. That's why I don't like to make predictions.

[oldjim]

My concern is that the Nets are slightly better percentage wise without Dlo -- though admittedly with small sample size.

4-8 with Dlo (.33) and 6-11 without him (.35). And I'm not sure how Okafor is a benefit given his playing style, at least until Kenny works his magic.

At this point, I have turned into Prok and place no weight on W-L. This season should be strictly about development and getting RHJ, Levert, Dinwiddie, Allen lots of playing time, and seeing whether Okafor and Stauskas are redeemable. In fact, I'd love to see Doyle get some playing time given our inability to create offense sometimes. And I totally understand why Booker no longer made any sense for us, once wins went out the window.

Your concern is correct. When Russell on court our offense and defense become worse.
Here is the stats when Russell on court: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/russeda01/on-off/2018

i am not saying Russell is a bad player, actually i like him , his passing skill and shooting skill is very good, and we need him playing in 4 qtrs but now he is more suitable to come off bench, this is not a shame to come off bench. He can still play 25-28 mins each games. His best position is 6th man now, someone like beasley of NY, can score but poor defense, this is typical 6th man.

Okafor , Kenny also need time to train him and change him to suitable for nowadays NBA .
Here is Okafor's state when he was on court: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01/on-off/2016
It is same with Russell , when he on court ,the team's O and D become worse.

If you understand the stats, then you will no wonder why PHI bench him and trade him. And you will understand why Lakers try to bench Russell and trade him. Someone always said Russell is 20.9/4.7/5.7 , that no way benched . However if you see Okafor's number, 17.5/7.0 in his rookie season, he was also benched.

Another example, Michael Beasley, no 2 pick on 2008, this year is 52.5 FG%, 36.4 3P%, last year in MIL 53.2 FG% , 41.9 3P%, very good scorer , he can score 11.1 in 17.5 mins , but he can only be a bench player , HOU don't resign him, MIL don't resign him, this year he can only earn $2m, last year is $1.4m , why ? why a good scorer like Beasley , he can only play 1x mins each game? Why MIL and HOU don't resign him with this cheap salary ?

let see his on/off court stats:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/beaslmi01/on-off/2018
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/beaslmi01/on-off/2017
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/beaslmi01/on-off/2016

Same with Russell and Okafor, when he on court, the team's defense become worse, but he still better than Russell and Okafor, because his scoring skill is really great, when he on court , the team's offense become better.

If you understand the stats, you will understand why Russell and Okafor were traded and why Beasley is benched . If we force Russell and Okafor to play as starter , it will hurt their NBA career. Even they can score 20 every game , they will lost their job.

[Roy Tarpley]

we've already addressed last year. it had more to do with not having an NBA calibur back up then it did with lin. we had to replace lin with three dleaguers and a second rounder. if we replaced lin with an nba player, the drop off wouldnt have been what it was

We both agree that last year, the Nets were on pace for 12 wins without Lin and 30 wins with Lin.

We both agree that the 12 win pace was due to the Nets not having an NBA calibur backup (i.e., we played Whitehead, Dinwiddie, and Skil at PG).

I also agree with you that if the Nets had a decent backup PG, say a healthy Greivis, the Nets would have won more. We probably disagree on the difference between Greivis and Lin. I think a healthy Greivis may have had the Nets on a 22 win pace instead of a 12 win pace, but Lin put the Nets on a 30 win pace.

We disagree about Lin's impact but no need to beat that dead horse again. I disagree that having Levert made much of a difference. He started playing in mid-December, way before Lin came back and when Levert played, the Nets were 15-42 (26.3% or 22 win pace). If anything, RHJ playing PF around Feb. 1 had a greater impact.

[Prokorov]

But you do generalize about Lin fans. It's not useful and it is just crap-stirring. Most of the Lin fans, the extreme ones, that may have made those predictions aren't actively posting now. Roy shouldn't be lumped in with them, or me, or a bunch of other regular Lin fans who are also fans of basketball and make less extreme posts. A Lin fan is not a Lin fan. There are different types. The "Lin fan" stuff needs to stop. Just say extreme fan and we're good. Or at least extreme Lin fans. That general characterization doesn't sit well with me.

you are overthinking it... the point was the win total prediction for this team was inflated because 8 or 10 Lin fans predicted 40+ wins. no one who wasnt a lin fan who predict such a total. You would need to believe Lin has some huge star impact to make that prediction.

its what it is.

[Prokorov]

we've already addressed last year. it had more to do with not having an NBA calibur back up then it did with lin. we had to replace lin with three dleaguers and a second rounder. if we replaced lin with an nba player, the drop off wouldnt have been what it was

We both agree that last year, the Nets were on pace for 12 wins without Lin and 30 wins with Lin.

We both agree that the 12 win pace was due to the Nets not having an NBA calibur backup (i.e., we played Whitehead, Dinwiddie, and Skil at PG).

I also agree with you that if the Nets had a decent backup PG, say a healthy Greivis, the Nets would have won more. We probably disagree on the difference between Greivis and Lin. I think a healthy Greivis may have had the Nets on a 22 win pace instead of a 12 win pace, but Lin put the Nets on a 30 win pace.

We disagree about Lin's impact but no need to beat that dead horse again. I disagree that having Levert made much of a difference. He started playing in mid-December, way before Lin came back and when Levert played, the Nets were 15-42 (26.3% or 22 win pace). If anything, RHJ playing PF around Feb. 1 had a greater impact.

i dont think it was just lin. i think levert returning from injury and RHJ moving to PF as well as the additions of mcdaniels, goodwin, and acy also had a big impact

[leoshes]

We are rooting for you guys, so good luck.

[Prokorov]

But you do generalize about Lin fans. It's not useful and it is just crap-stirring. Most of the Lin fans, the extreme ones, that may have made those predictions aren't actively posting now. Roy shouldn't be lumped in with them, or me, or a bunch of other regular Lin fans who are also fans of basketball and make less extreme posts. A Lin fan is not a Lin fan. There are different types. The "Lin fan" stuff needs to stop. Just say extreme fan and we're good. Or at least extreme Lin fans. That general characterization doesn't sit well with me.

its not worth anyones time to walk on egg shells. Lin fans would do themselve a huge service to weed out the fake lin fans... but instead they kind of defend them. for instance when someone says Lin has more impact then harden or is better then lillard instead of calling that out they dont and sometimes even agree with it to an extent.

if i generalize so be it. Lin fans as a whole are far and away the worst fans on this board. if thats a few bad apples spoiling the bunch thats unofrtunate but thats what happens when you hero worship and dont call out the trolls.

[Prokorov]

But you do generalize about Lin fans. It's not useful and it is just crap-stirring. Most of the Lin fans, the extreme ones, that may have made those predictions aren't actively posting now. Roy shouldn't be lumped in with them, or me, or a bunch of other regular Lin fans who are also fans of basketball and make less extreme posts. A Lin fan is not a Lin fan. There are different types. The "Lin fan" stuff needs to stop. Just say extreme fan and we're good. Or at least extreme Lin fans. That general characterization doesn't sit well with me.

its not worth anyones time to walk on egg shells. Lin fans would do themselve a huge service to weed out the fake lin fans... but instead they kind of defend them. for instance when someone says Lin has more impact then harden or is better then lillard instead of calling that out they dont and sometimes even agree with it to an extent.

if i generalize so be it. Lin fans as a whole are far and away the worst fans on this board. if thats a few bad apples spoiling the bunch thats unofrtunate but thats what happens when you hero worship and dont call out the trolls.

[bws94]

But you do generalize about Lin fans. It's not useful and it is just crap-stirring. Most of the Lin fans, the extreme ones, that may have made those predictions aren't actively posting now. Roy shouldn't be lumped in with them, or me, or a bunch of other regular Lin fans who are also fans of basketball and make less extreme posts. A Lin fan is not a Lin fan. There are different types. The "Lin fan" stuff needs to stop. Just say extreme fan and we're good. Or at least extreme Lin fans. That general characterization doesn't sit well with me.

its not worth anyones time to walk on egg shells. Lin fans would do themselve a huge service to weed out the fake lin fans... but instead they kind of defend them. for instance when someone says Lin has more impact then harden or is better then lillard instead of calling that out they dont and sometimes even agree with it to an extent.

if i generalize so be it. Lin fans as a whole are far and away the worst fans on this board. if thats a few bad apples spoiling the bunch thats unofrtunate but thats what happens when you hero worship and dont call out the trolls.

I disagree with the generalization. Yeah, there are some extreme Lin fans. But some Lin fans are basketball fans and put him in a sensible context. I haven't read anyone compare Lin to Harden in months and I think you need to kind of let that go and not every single time you encounter some extreme fan you go to the "Lin fan" label. Just my opinion, Prok.

[ducler]