I said in the FINALS, post the full statlines with shooting % Kobe was great in the 01 playoffs , shaq was still better tho, Kobe took a step back in 2002 (shot 43% in the 02 playoffs) shaq was still better. 2000 isnt even worth explaining lol
fileman3 wrote: But Shaq was much better than Kobe in all those finals, Shaq and MJ are the the GOAT finals performers imo, Kobe has actually been pretty subpar in the finals for his career, i respect all those great players just stating what i saw
He may have had the better statline points and rebs wise but that was because he was going against much inferior centers with the exception of mutombi in the 01 series against philly. Indiana: rick smits (lol) NJ: Todd MacCulloch (who? )
obviously lakers wanted to exploit the mismatches and use shaq in those match ups. by the way who was the guy hitting clutch shots when the game was tight at the end? it wasnt shaq
Well using this logic Kobe was only allowed to go off vs the spurs in 01 because Shaq was covered by Tim Duncan and David Robinson while Kobe was guarded by Antonio Daniels (Lol) , Kobe's main defender was injured in 01 (Derek Anderson)
I don't know what youre trying to get at but in the finals (biggest stage of baskeball) you want to exploit every matchup possible and shaq was probably the most dominant center ever so why not utilize him against rick smits and todd maccolluch?
in the 01 series against san antonio kobe was allowed to go off because he was putting up INSANE numbers. and this was one of the best defensive teams to ever play (2001 spurs), his stats for the series were
CoffeeCakez wrote: yea how can we forget he baited draymond to a suspension by stepping over him. Oh and who hit the go ahead 3 pt shot in game 7? hint: it wasnt lebron
Should I start posting Paxon and Kerr videos
Ironically, LeBron's free throw sealed the game and before the Kyrie shot he was responsible for basically everything else in that quarter.
Here's a tip: the more you don't mention what everyone else already knows the more disingenuous and incorrect you are. This isn't First Take, you'll get mercilessly called out.
CoffeeCakez wrote: He may have had the better statline points and rebs wise but that was because he was going against much inferior centers with the exception of mutombi in the 01 series against philly. Indiana: rick smits (lol) NJ: Todd MacCulloch (who? )
obviously lakers wanted to exploit the mismatches and use shaq in those match ups. by the way who was the guy hitting clutch shots when the game was tight at the end? it wasnt shaq
Well using this logic Kobe was only allowed to go off vs the spurs in 01 because Shaq was covered by Tim Duncan and David Robinson while Kobe was guarded by Antonio Daniels (Lol) , Kobe's main defender was injured in 01 (Derek Anderson)
I don't know what youre trying to get at but in the finals (biggest stage of baskeball) you want to exploit every matchup possible and shaq was probably the most dominant center ever so why not utilize him against rick smits and todd maccolluch?
in the 01 series against san antonio kobe was allowed to go off because he was putting up INSANE numbers. and this was one of the best defensive teams to ever play (2001 spurs), his stats for the series were
33.3 ppg, 7 rebs, 7 assts, on 51% shooting
Sorry if i came off as hostile bro didn't mean to...my original point was that yes Shaq was much more dominant than Kobe in the finals, be it by matchups or not. Just like Kobe was dominant vs the spurs in 01 That's all i was saying ...
CoffeeCakez wrote: yea how can we forget he baited draymond to a suspension by stepping over him. Oh and who hit the go ahead 3 pt shot in game 7? hint: it wasnt lebron
Should I start posting Paxon and Kerr videos
You can but the Bulls were up in those series, not tied or down in them. That is the difference. Other guys were taking the shots when Lebron was tied or down in the series.
"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships." - Michael Jordan
JordansBulls wrote:You can but the Bulls were up in those series, not tied or down in them. That is the difference. Other guys were taking the shots when Lebron was tied or down in the series.
So what? He needed them to win.
If performing against the odds matters then Jordan is a career fail. His team's were always favoured in the finals and he was a perennial embarrassment until Pippen, Grant and Phil.
fileman3 wrote: Well using this logic Kobe was only allowed to go off vs the spurs in 01 because Shaq was covered by Tim Duncan and David Robinson while Kobe was guarded by Antonio Daniels (Lol) , Kobe's main defender was injured in 01 (Derek Anderson)
I don't know what youre trying to get at but in the finals (biggest stage of baskeball) you want to exploit every matchup possible and shaq was probably the most dominant center ever so why not utilize him against rick smits and todd maccolluch?
in the 01 series against san antonio kobe was allowed to go off because he was putting up INSANE numbers. and this was one of the best defensive teams to ever play (2001 spurs), his stats for the series were
33.3 ppg, 7 rebs, 7 assts, on 51% shooting
Sorry if i came off as hostile bro didn't mean to...my original point was that yes Shaq was much more dominant than Kobe in the finals, be it by matchups or not. Just like Kobe was dominant vs the spurs in 01 That's all i was saying ...
CoffeeCakez wrote: yea how can we forget he baited draymond to a suspension by stepping over him. Oh and who hit the go ahead 3 pt shot in game 7? hint: it wasnt lebron
Should I start posting Paxon and Kerr videos
Ironically, LeBron's free throw sealed the game and before the Kyrie shot he was responsible for basically everything else in that quarter.
Here's a tip: the more you don't mention what everyone else already knows the more disingenuous and incorrect you are. This isn't First Take, you'll get mercilessly called out.
lebron bricked like 3 shots in a row before kyrie sinked that go ahead 3 pointer:
right after kyrie made the 3, curry missed a 3 and then lebron got fouled with 11 secs left (92-89) of which he made 1-2 FTs to put cavs up 93-89. Curry then missed another 3 pt attempt, effectively ending the game. So no his free throw didnt seal anything, irving's three already put them up by 3 (92-89) and then curry missed a crucial three right after. Curry's miss sealed the game for GS as afterwards there was little time remaining.
JordansBulls wrote:You can but the Bulls were up in those series, not tied or down in them. That is the difference. Other guys were taking the shots when Lebron was tied or down in the series.
So what? He needed them to win.
If performing against the odds matters then Jordan is a career fail. His team's were always favoured in the finals and he was a perennial embarrassment until Pippen, Grant and Phil.
No they weren’t they were underdogs half the time and MJ pulled thru. Too bad Lebron has always been down in a series every year of his 3-2 and won bronze medals for the USA twice even with Prime Duncan and then Peak Wade. I mean no other top 10 great was down every year 3-2 in a series and definitely not down 3-2 five years in a row even with HCA.
"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships." - Michael Jordan
CoffeeCakez wrote: yea how can we forget he baited draymond to a suspension by stepping over him. Oh and who hit the go ahead 3 pt shot in game 7? hint: it wasnt lebron
Should I start posting Paxon and Kerr videos
Ironically, LeBron's free throw sealed the game and before the Kyrie shot he was responsible for basically everything else in that quarter.
Here's a tip: the more you don't mention what everyone else already knows the more disingenuous and incorrect you are. This isn't First Take, you'll get mercilessly called out.
lebron bricked like 3 shots in a row before kyrie sinked that go ahead 3 pointer:
right after kyrie made the 3, curry missed a 3 and then lebron got fouled with 11 secs left (92-89) of which he made 1-2 FTs to put cavs up 93-89. Curry then missed another 3 pt attempt, effectively ending the game. So no his free throw didnt seal anything, irving's three already put them up by 3 (92-89) and then curry missed a crucial three right after. Curry's miss sealed the game for GS as afterwards there was little time remaining.
This is cherry-picking; you're asserting that because LeBron has stretches where he misses shots, he isn't clutch. This wasn't even a bad game on his part-- he put up 27, 11, and 11 and his team won the title.
Every player has bad games; Kobe's had plenty, but that doesn't mean he isn't clutch. He went 7-for-22 in G6 against the Celtics in 2008; he shot 19-for-61 (31%) in the last three games of the 2004 Finals; and since you brought up LeBron missing his last three shots at the end of 2016 G7-- a game his team won--, I'll remind you that Kobe missed his last three shots (he shot 6-for-24 overall) in G7 of the 2010 Finals-- a game his team won.*
Do those bad games from Kobe mean he isn't great? Of course not. When you constantly dive into the minutiae to point out every shot LeBron misses (and you really are converging on that level of pettiness when you want to talk about three shots in the context of a game in which he had a triple double and in which his team won the title), it betrays a clear agenda on your part.
* Just in case you were going to rebut the observation of poor shooting by reminding us that he had 15 rebounds in that game ('he helped the team in other ways'), I'll rebut that by pointing out that LeBron's 11 points and 11 rebounds in his G7 probably helped his crew out a bit as well.
LeBird wrote: Should I start posting Paxon and Kerr videos
Ironically, LeBron's free throw sealed the game and before the Kyrie shot he was responsible for basically everything else in that quarter.
Here's a tip: the more you don't mention what everyone else already knows the more disingenuous and incorrect you are. This isn't First Take, you'll get mercilessly called out.
lebron bricked like 3 shots in a row before kyrie sinked that go ahead 3 pointer:
right after kyrie made the 3, curry missed a 3 and then lebron got fouled with 11 secs left (92-89) of which he made 1-2 FTs to put cavs up 93-89. Curry then missed another 3 pt attempt, effectively ending the game. So no his free throw didnt seal anything, irving's three already put them up by 3 (92-89) and then curry missed a crucial three right after. Curry's miss sealed the game for GS as afterwards there was little time remaining.
This is cherry-picking; you're asserting that because LeBron's had bad games, he isn't clutch. But every player has bad games; Kobe's had plenty, but that doesn't mean he isn't clutch. He went 7-for-22 in G6 against the Celtics in 2008; he shot 19-for-61 (31%) in the last three games of the 2004 Finals; and since you brought up LeBron missing his last three shots at the end of 2016 G7-- a game his team won--, I'll remind you that Kobe missed his last three shots (he shot 6-for-24 overall) in G7 of the 2010 Finals-- a game his team won. And just in case you were going to rebut the observation of poor shooting by reminding us that he has 15 rebounds in that game ('he helped the team in other ways'), I'll rebut that by pointing out that LeBron's 11 points and 11 rebounds in his G7 probably helped his crew out a bit as well.
Do those bad games from Kobe mean he isn't great? Of course not. When you constantly dive into the minutiae to point out every shot LeBron misses (and you really are converging on that level of pettiness when you want to talk about three shots in the context of a game in which he had a triple double and in which his team won the title), it betrays a clear agenda on your part.
thats not what I'm implying by this play by play graphic I posted.user LeBird claimed lebrons free throws sealed the game for the cavs and I simply rebutted that kyrie's dagger 3 and then curry missing two straight threes sealed the win for the cavs. the game was already pretty much over when lebron went 1-2 at the FT line. I simply refuted his false claim, thats all.
You took this specific post out of context saying that BECAUSE of this ONE instance I think lebron isnt clutch. No sammy, I am not that simple minded. The reason why I don't hold lebron in regard with kobe and MJ when talking about clutchness is due to the data above that Long2s graciously presented us with. have a look
LeBird wrote:Where are the other stats? Rebounds, assists, etc?
Here's a stat for you: only one of these guys came back from 3-1 down against a 73 win team in the NBA finals leading both teams in every major statistical category. Hint: it's not Kobe or Jordan.
yea how can we forget he baited draymond to a suspension by stepping over him. Oh and who hit the go ahead 3 pt shot in game 7? hint: it wasnt lebron
Who dominated the fourth quarter and was the only one to score more than 3 points on either team in the 4th of game 7? Hint: it was Lebron.
As for shaq and Kobe comp from 01-04 it wasn’t close. The guy getting triple teamed, winnings finals mvp and not throwing the 04 finals was by far the superior player. As he would have been against nearly every player ever.
CoffeeCakez wrote: lebron bricked like 3 shots in a row before kyrie sinked that go ahead 3 pointer:
right after kyrie made the 3, curry missed a 3 and then lebron got fouled with 11 secs left (92-89) of which he made 1-2 FTs to put cavs up 93-89. Curry then missed another 3 pt attempt, effectively ending the game. So no his free throw didnt seal anything, irving's three already put them up by 3 (92-89) and then curry missed a crucial three right after. Curry's miss sealed the game for GS as afterwards there was little time remaining.
This is cherry-picking; you're asserting that because LeBron's had bad games, he isn't clutch. But every player has bad games; Kobe's had plenty, but that doesn't mean he isn't clutch. He went 7-for-22 in G6 against the Celtics in 2008; he shot 19-for-61 (31%) in the last three games of the 2004 Finals; and since you brought up LeBron missing his last three shots at the end of 2016 G7-- a game his team won--, I'll remind you that Kobe missed his last three shots (he shot 6-for-24 overall) in G7 of the 2010 Finals-- a game his team won. And just in case you were going to rebut the observation of poor shooting by reminding us that he has 15 rebounds in that game ('he helped the team in other ways'), I'll rebut that by pointing out that LeBron's 11 points and 11 rebounds in his G7 probably helped his crew out a bit as well.
Do those bad games from Kobe mean he isn't great? Of course not. When you constantly dive into the minutiae to point out every shot LeBron misses (and you really are converging on that level of pettiness when you want to talk about three shots in the context of a game in which he had a triple double and in which his team won the title), it betrays a clear agenda on your part.
thats not what I'm implying by this play by play graphic I posted.user LeBird claimed lebrons free throws sealed the game for the cavs and I simply rebutted that kyrie's dagger 3 and then curry missing two straight threes sealed the win for the cavs. the game was already pretty much over when lebron went 1-2 at the FT line. I simply refuted his false claim, thats all.
That's not all you did, though; you went the extra mile by talking about LeBron's three shots, which had nothing to do with Kyrie's three or LeBron's FTs. It was very important to you to point out that LeBron missed three shots, even though those shots weren't what was being discussed. That's part of the agenda I alluded to.
CoffeeCakez wrote:You took this specific post out of context saying that BECAUSE of this ONE instance I think lebron isnt clutch. No sammy, I am not that simple minded. The reason why I don't hold lebron in regard with kobe and MJ when talking about clutchness is due to the data above that Long2s graciously presented us with. have a look
This is what I mean when I talk about cherry-picking. You want people to address the stats Long2s posted, but what about, for instance, this information, which has now been posted three times and which nobody's addressed?:
Spoiler:
LeBird wrote:
Down3223 wrote:it's a fake narrative that came from Skip Bayless and these people who are obsessed with hero ball/volume over making the right play/eff that was easily debunkable.
LeBron May Be The Most Clutch Playoff Shooter Of His Generation
Relative to the league-wide average, James generated 4.8 more total points than expected on his go-ahead shots, which translates to about one entire playoff win beyond what an average shooter would have contributed from the same field-goal distances. And those numbers become magnified when you consider that James’s average go-ahead shot came in a playoff game with championship implications 34 percent greater than the typical postseason contest. After we weight by the leverage of his specific game-winning shot attempts, James generated the equivalent3 of 8.5 more points than expected, or roughly two playoff wins above average, with his clutch end-of-game shooting alone.
(By contrast, Bryant generated 3.2 fewer points than expected and did it in games that were about 64 percent more important than the average playoff game, compounding the damage of his 1-for-10 performance.)
Now, if we go with THOSE cherry-picked stats instead of the OTHER cherry-picked stats, LeBron comes out way ahead.
So, the Kobe-haters will go with one set of data and the LeBron-haters will go with a different set of data, and what does any of it prove? Relatively little, other than that sports data is complex and can be manipulated myriad ways, and that both sides have agendas to discredit the other player.
MyUniBroDavis wrote: he was like YALL PEOPLE WHO DOUBT ME WILL SEE YALLS STATS ARE WRONG I HAVE THE BIG BRAIN PLAYS MUCHO NASTY BIG BRAIN BIG CHUNGUS BRAIN YOU BOYS ON UR BBALL REFERENCE NO UNDERSTANDO
