Lebron vs Kobe vs MJ - NBA Clutch Stats

[Dupp]

This is cherry-picking; you're asserting that because LeBron's had bad games, he isn't clutch. But every player has bad games; Kobe's had plenty, but that doesn't mean he isn't clutch. He went 7-for-22 in G6 against the Celtics in 2008; he shot 19-for-61 (31%) in the last three games of the 2004 Finals; and since you brought up LeBron missing his last three shots at the end of 2016 G7-- a game his team won--, I'll remind you that Kobe missed his last three shots (he shot 6-for-24 overall) in G7 of the 2010 Finals-- a game his team won. And just in case you were going to rebut the observation of poor shooting by reminding us that he has 15 rebounds in that game ('he helped the team in other ways'), I'll rebut that by pointing out that LeBron's 11 points and 11 rebounds in his G7 probably helped his crew out a bit as well.

Do those bad games from Kobe mean he isn't great? Of course not. When you constantly dive into the minutiae to point out every shot LeBron misses (and you really are converging on that level of pettiness when you want to talk about three shots in the context of a game in which he had a triple double and in which his team won the title), it betrays a clear agenda on your part.

thats not what I'm implying by this play by play graphic I posted.user LeBird claimed lebrons free throws sealed the game for the cavs and I simply rebutted that kyrie's dagger 3 and then curry missing two straight threes sealed the win for the cavs. the game was already pretty much over when lebron went 1-2 at the FT line. I simply refuted his false claim, thats all.

That's not all you did, though; you went the extra mile by talking about LeBron's three shots, which had nothing to do with Kyrie's three or LeBron's FTs. It was very important to you to point out that LeBron missed three shots, even though those shots weren't what was being discussed. That's part of the agenda I alluded to.

You took this specific post out of context saying that BECAUSE of this ONE instance I think lebron isnt clutch. No sammy, I am not that simple minded. The reason why I don't hold lebron in regard with kobe and MJ when talking about clutchness is due to the data above that Long2s graciously presented us with. have a look

This is what I mean when I talk about cherry-picking. You want people to address the stats Long2s posted, but what about, for instance, this information, which has now been posted three times and which nobody's addressed?:

Spoiler:

it's a fake narrative that came from Skip Bayless and these people who are obsessed with hero ball/volume over making the right play/eff that was easily debunkable.






LeBron May Be The Most Clutch Playoff Shooter Of His Generation




https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebron-may-be-the-most-clutch-playoff-shooter-of-his-generation/

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Now, if we go with THOSE cherry-picked stats, LeBron comes out way ahead.

So, the Kobe-haters will go with one set of data and the LeBron-haters will go with a different set of data, and what does any of it prove? Only that sports data is complex and can be manipulated myriad ways.

It proves that clutch arguments either way are dumb. Vague and cherry picked definition that for some reason only includes scoring and often just the last shot.

Theres a lot more to the game, theres a whole game thats played and there other just as important ( or clutch) moments throughout a game.

[Kupchak9]

Next let's extrapolate their "clutchness" when the game is tied and there's only -13 minutes left in the 5th quarter, with the shot-clock at 25 seconds. But only after they've had a full-timeout to drink a gallon of gatorade.

[LeBird]

No they weren’t they were underdogs half the time and MJ pulled thru. Too bad Lebron has always been down in a series every year of his 3-2 and won bronze medals for the USA twice even with Prime Duncan and then Peak Wade. I mean no other top 10 great was down every year 3-2 in a series and definitely not down 3-2 five years in a row even with HCA.

When someone revises history, you know it's a wrap.

Bulls were favoured in every final they played. The only finals that they may have been underdogs were the Lakers, except for the injuries which pushed things in the Bulls favor.

And no one cares about the Olympics otherwise Barkley > Jordan.

[LeBird]

right after kyrie made the 3, curry missed a 3 and then lebron got fouled with 11 secs left (92-89) of which he made 1-2 FTs to put cavs up 93-89. Curry then missed another 3 pt attempt, effectively ending the game. So no his free throw didnt seal anything, irving's three already put them up by 3 (92-89) and then curry missed a crucial three right after. Curry's miss sealed the game for GS as afterwards there was little time remaining.

Exactly, so after that free throw sealed the game they won - Curry's 3 pointer was irrelevant. It was still a one-possession game until that free throw. What more, Kyrie himself missed/was blocked on 4 shots in that quarter. LeBron assisted or scored 13 of the Cavs 18 points that quarter.

What more, before Kyrie draining that 3; LeBron came up with the clutchest block in NBA finals history.

I mean, I don't think there is any player in history who had a better finals than LeBron did that year and you are using mental gymnastics to prove otherwise. It's funny and nuts at the same time.

[Arrow]

It's funny, before when LeBron was scrutinized for missing/passing up game-tying/winning shots, that was all his haters could point out. Then when ESPN released that graphic that showed LeBron already had more game-tying/winning shots than Kobe on less attempts in the playoffs, they have to shift the narrative to this.

So I guess Ray Allen didn't "bail out" LeBron in '13? LeBron made the plays in the "clutch" (including the 3 to bring the score within 3) for that shot to even be possible.

[-Sammy-]

It's funny, before when LeBron was scrutinized for missing/passing up game-tying/winning shots, that was all his haters could point out. Then when ESPN released that graphic that showed LeBron already had more game-tying/winning shots than Kobe on less attempts in the playoffs, they have to shift the narrative to this.

So I guess Ray Allen didn't "bail out" LeBron in '13? LeBron made the plays in the "clutch" (including the 3 to bring the score within 3) for that shot to even be possible.

LeBron also hit the game-winning jump shot in OT of that game.

[CoffeeCakez]

right after kyrie made the 3, curry missed a 3 and then lebron got fouled with 11 secs left (92-89) of which he made 1-2 FTs to put cavs up 93-89. Curry then missed another 3 pt attempt, effectively ending the game. So no his free throw didnt seal anything, irving's three already put them up by 3 (92-89) and then curry missed a crucial three right after. Curry's miss sealed the game for GS as afterwards there was little time remaining.

Exactly, so after that free throw sealed the game they won - Curry's 3 pointer was irrelevant. It was still a one-possession game until that free throw. What more, Kyrie himself missed/was blocked on 4 shots in that quarter. LeBron assisted or scored 13 of the Cavs 18 points that quarter.

What more, before Kyrie draining that 3; LeBron came up with the clutchest block in NBA finals history.

I mean, I don't think there is any player in history who had a better finals than LeBron did that year and you are using mental gymnastics to prove otherwise. It's funny and nuts at the same time.

We're diverging into a whole new topic altogether with Lebron's performance in the 2016 finals. Yes it was great and one of the best of all time, but thats not the point of this thread. You shifted the focus of this thread to that specific series and are changing goal posts now. This thread's main point is field goal stats during clutch time in the playoffs and finals for ALL of the playoffs and finals that MJ, kobe, and lebron played in.

If you wanted to discuss lebron's performance in the 2016 finals go start a thread on GB about it, I'm sure it will be well received there.

[CoffeeCakez]

It proves that clutch arguments either way are dumb. Vague and cherry picked definition that for some reason only includes scoring and often just the last shot.

Theres a lot more to the game, theres a whole game thats played and there other just as important ( or clutch) moments throughout a game.

Theres also data on assists per 36 mins and turnovers per 36 in the clutch time defined in this thread (two mins left with a margin of 3 points)

Lebron
He is 40/106 in clutch situation
His free throw shooting is 49/67
True Shooting is, 49.8%
Assist per 36: 4.2 assists
Turnovers per 36: 4.2 turnovers

kobe
He is 40/96 in clutch situations.
His free throw shooting is 67/79
His true shooting is 58 %
Assists per 36: 4.3 assists
Turnovers per 36: 1.7 turnovers

Finals: Last 2 minutes, margin of 3.

Lebron
He is 4/23 in clutch situations
His free throw shooting is 10/14
His true shooting is 31%
Assists per 36: 3.7 assists
TO per 36: 3.7 TO

kobe
He is 10/20 in clutch situations
His free throw shooting is 4/5
His true shooting is 56.4%
Assists per 36: 7.5 assists
TO per 36: 1.5 TO

In this data, true shooting % is included because of free throw shooting.
source: https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/6lhlcj/kobe_vs_lebron_in_clutch_situations/

[Nightwing]

Loving the sig!

"Gang of 27" should be our crew name.

Count me in

[dhsilv2]

Anyone got cliff's notes? And why are assists and turnovers at least not included? It's kinda hard to draw much out of just field goal shooting, especially when 2 guys are scorers and the 3rd guy is a point.

[bledredwine]

Well that's an exaggeration. I wouldn't say that seeing as Lebron admitted Kobe was a better player and was amazed by him in 2008. Does that mean Shaq was way way better than him as well? Let's respect great players.

But Shaq was much better than Kobe in all those finals, Shaq and MJ are the the GOAT finals performers imo, Kobe has actually been pretty subpar in the finals for his career, i respect all those great players just stating what i saw

I actually agree. My fault - I thought that you had an agenda against Kobe like many posters here for obvious reasons. I wasn't a fan, but Kobe deserves respect for leading the league for a few years.

[PaulieWal]

yea how can we forget he baited draymond to a suspension by stepping over him. Oh and who hit the go ahead 3 pt shot in game 7? hint: it wasnt lebron

Should I start posting Paxon and Kerr videos

Ironically, LeBron's free throw sealed the game and before the Kyrie shot he was responsible for basically everything else in that quarter.

Here's a tip: the more you don't mention what everyone else already knows the more disingenuous and incorrect you are. This isn't First Take, you'll get mercilessly called out.

lebron bricked like 3 shots in a row before kyrie sinked that go ahead 3 pointer:


right after kyrie made the 3, curry missed a 3 and then lebron got fouled with 11 secs left (92-89) of which he made 1-2 FTs to put cavs up 93-89. Curry then missed another 3 pt attempt, effectively ending the game. So no his free throw didnt seal anything, irving's three already put them up by 3 (92-89) and then curry missed a crucial three right after. Curry's miss sealed the game for GS as afterwards there was little time remaining.

I like how you say LeBron bricked 3 shots when he had 9 points in that entire quarter to Kyrie's 5 and the most for anyone on either team. If you read that play by play it's pretty much every one bricking shots. Both teams were playing tired and the defense was extremely tight but you do you.

[poopdamoop]

It's nice to see Kobe and MJ fans united in pursuit of a common goal. Lebron really does bring people together

[bledredwine]

It's nice to see Kobe and MJ fans united in pursuit of a common goal. Lebron really does bring people together

"Nothing in the world can bother you as much as your own mind, I tell you. In fact, others seem to be bothering you, but it is not other, it is your own mind." Sri Sri Ravi Shankar

[countryboy667]

If this keeps up. Kobe may actually dethrone Hakeem in my mind as the most overrated player on this forum. Great, yes, but not as great as sa number of others I could name.

[The High Cyde]

It's nice to see Kobe and MJ fans united in pursuit of a common goal. Lebron really does bring people together

Lmao it's pretty funny, the threat of LeBron of becoming GOAT is a reality they're trying their best to dispel. The mental gymnastics makes it a fun read lol

[LeBird]

We're diverging into a whole new topic altogether with Lebron's performance in the 2016 finals. Yes it was great and one of the best of all time, but thats not the point of this thread. You shifted the focus of this thread to that specific series and are changing goal posts now. This thread's main point is field goal stats during clutch time in the playoffs and finals for ALL of the playoffs and finals that MJ, kobe, and lebron played in.

If you wanted to discuss lebron's performance in the 2016 finals go start a thread on GB about it, I'm sure it will be well received there.

The point is about clutchness. Not some bastardised and cherry-picked definition you want to use. What LeBron achieved in that finals alone puts to shame any claim of clutchness by Jordan or Kobe. Neither have come anywhere near showing up for their team like LeBron did in those finals.

[Long2s]

It's funny, before when LeBron was scrutinized for missing/passing up game-tying/winning shots, that was all his haters could point out. Then when ESPN released that graphic that showed LeBron already had more game-tying/winning shots than Kobe on less attempts in the playoffs, they have to shift the narrative to this.

So I guess Ray Allen didn't "bail out" LeBron in '13? LeBron made the plays in the "clutch" (including the 3 to bring the score within 3) for that shot to even be possible.

Nope.

The point is that Lebron has been attacked for not taking those shots in clutch, particularly in the finals (but also playoffs).

Now we have solid stats that show it's likely because he simply sucks at it.

I mean, 17% is really, really bad. You'd be better off giving the ball to just about any other player. JR Smith would be a better choice than Lebron.

[bledredwine]

We're diverging into a whole new topic altogether with Lebron's performance in the 2016 finals. Yes it was great and one of the best of all time, but thats not the point of this thread. You shifted the focus of this thread to that specific series and are changing goal posts now. This thread's main point is field goal stats during clutch time in the playoffs and finals for ALL of the playoffs and finals that MJ, kobe, and lebron played in.

If you wanted to discuss lebron's performance in the 2016 finals go start a thread on GB about it, I'm sure it will be well received there.

The point is about clutchness. Not some bastardised and cherry-picked definition you want to use. What LeBron achieved in that finals alone puts to shame any claim of clutchness by Jordan or Kobe. Neither have come anywhere near showing up for their team like LeBron did in those finals.

I can't believe what I'm reading. MJ has way more legendary clutch moments in the finals and you know it, "LeBird". Lebron's midrange percentage is wretched, why do you think he'd be a good clutch choice? He has the not-clutch reputation for a reason. Any smart person takes jordan over Lebron for that last 30 seconds to two minutes, let alone the last shot. On top of this, you have clutch defense. The GOAT comparison is always fabricated by the media. It happens to whomever is the best player in the league. Steph two years ago. When someone is dominant and way ahead of the other players, I will admit it's compatible, just as I admitted Steph was the closest we've seen to Jordan dominance. I would love to see it. That's why the Lebron comparisons are so obnoxious/annoying. I was telling my friends "what we're witnessing with Steph... this is special. Let's see if it translates to playoff defense." I was cheering for him despite comparisons. They were well-deserved.

[LeBird]

I can't believe what I'm reading. MJ has way more legendary clutch moments in the finals and you know it, "LeBird". Lebron's midrange percentage is wretched, why do you think he'd be a good clutch choice? He has the not-clutch reputation for a reason. Any smart person takes jordan over Lebron for that last 30 seconds to two minutes, let alone the last shot. On top of this, you have clutch defense. The GOAT comparison is always fabricated by the media. It happens to whomever is the best player in the league. Steph two years ago. When someone is dominant and way ahead of the other players, I will admit it's compatible, just as I admitted Steph was the closest we've seen to Jordan dominance. I would love to see it. That's why the Lebron comparisons are so obnoxious/annoying. I was telling my friends "what we're witnessing with Steph... this is special. Let's see if it translates to playoff defense." I was cheering for him despite comparisons. They were well-deserved.

Erm, no he doesn't. Particularly because the finals opponents he was facing were so bad that they rarely put the Bulls under the kind of pressure LeBron has been against in most of these finals - let alone the 2016 finals, which is the GOAT standard for a clutch series.

I take LeBron all day, including the final few minutes. It's not really difficult to see: LeBron is a more efficient scorer, a far better rebounder and passer, and a far more valuable defender.

If GOAT comparisons are fabricated by the media, it benefitted Jordan the most. He has neither the number of accolades across the board as Kareem nor as many chips as Russell and yet before he retired the first time they were calling him GOAT. People have been and will increasingly continue to call LeBron the GOAT now. Get with it.