Lebron vs Kobe vs MJ - NBA Clutch Stats

countryboy667 · Post #61 » by **countryboy667** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:48 pm

LeBird wrote:
bledredwine wrote:I can't believe what I'm reading. MJ has way more legendary clutch moments in the finals and you know it, "LeBird". Lebron's midrange percentage is wretched, why do you think he'd be a good clutch choice? He has the not-clutch reputation for a reason. Any smart person takes jordan over Lebron for that last 30 seconds to two minutes, let alone the last shot. On top of this, you have clutch defense. The GOAT comparison is always fabricated by the media. It happens to whomever is the best player in the league. Steph two years ago. When someone is dominal[nt and way ahead of the other players, I will admit it's compatible, just as I admitted Steph was the closest we've seen to Jordan dominance. I would love to see it. That's why the Lebron comparisons are so obnoxious/annoying. I was telling my friends "what we're witnessing with Steph... this is special. Let's see if it translates to playoff defense." I was cheering for him despite comparisons. They were well-deserved.

Erm, no he doesn't. Particularly because the finals opponents he was facing were so bad that they rarely put the Bulls under the kind of pressure LeBron has been against in most of these finals - let alone the 2016 finals, which is the GOAT standard for a clutch series.

I take LeBron all day, including the final few minutes. It's not really difficult to see: LeBron is a more efficient scorer, a far better rebounder and passer, and a far more valuable defender.

If GOAT comparisons are fabricated by the media, it benefitted Jordan the most. He has neither the number of accolades across the board as Kareem nor as many chips as Russell and yet before he retired the first time they were calling him GOAT. People have been and will increasingly continue to call LeBron the GOAT now. Get with it.

I never have considered Jordan the GOAT. He played in a relatively weak era in the NBA after the Showtime Lakers, Bird Celtics, and Bad Boy Pistons were all pretty much spent. If he'd had to compete his whole career against teams of that caliber, no six titles. There are a number of others--Wilt, Russell, Magic, Kareem, Lebron, and maybe some others that ave a better claim just in terms of pure player ability and impact.

Ainosterhaspie · Post #62 » by **Ainosterhaspie** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:33 pm

LeBird wrote:
CoffeeCakez wrote:We're diverging into a whole new topic altogether with Lebron's performance in the 2016 finals. Yes it was great and one of the best of all time, but thats not the point of this thread. You shifted the focus of this thread to that specific series and are changing goal posts now. This thread's main point is field goal stats during clutch time in the playoffs and finals for ALL of the playoffs and finals that MJ, kobe, and lebron played in.

If you wanted to discuss lebron's performance in the 2016 finals go start a thread on GB about it, I'm sure it will be well received there.

The point is about clutchness. Not some bastardised and cherry-picked definition you want to use. What LeBron achieved in that finals alone puts to shame any claim of clutchness by Jordan or Kobe. Neither have come anywhere near showing up for their team like LeBron did in those finals.

The same goes for the 2013 playoffs. He led a furious fourth quarter rally, but critics want to ignore all that lead up to them being in striking distance, and only focus on arbitrary criteria to discount the rest of his game.

In game 6 with with 20 seconds left, he made a three when they were down 5. Without that basket, they lose. Ray's three becomes irrelevant. But it doesn't count for the within three part of this particular clutch definition. There's no credible argument that that wasn't a clutch shot, but he doesn't get credit for it.

This particular clutch definition is probably to narrow to really be meaningful. A five or six point game with two minutes remaining is definitely still anyone's game. Just one defensive stop is necessary to go from down six to tied. Even a six point game with 30 seconds left can go either way assuming the team down has the ball.

That's why the numbers are interesting as a starting point for analysis, but there is much more to it than that.

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CoffeeCakez · Post #63 » by **CoffeeCakez** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:48 pm

LeBird wrote:Erm, no he doesn't. Particularly because the finals opponents he was facing were so bad that they rarely put the Bulls under the kind of pressure LeBron has been against in most of these finals

right, magic johnson (1991 finals),stockton and malone (jazz series) are bad opponents? both of these teams won more than 58 teams in the respective seasons. The others I agree weren't up to the bulls level.

let alone the 2016 finals, which is the GOAT standard for a clutch series

based on what? kyrie irving averaged 27.1 ppg in that series and hit that go ahead clutch 3 at the end of game 7, lebron did not accomplish the 2016 feat alone.

I take LeBron all day, including the final few minutes. It's not really difficult to see: LeBron is a more efficient scorer, a far better rebounder and passer, and a far more valuable defender.

based on the data presented in this thread, that would be a horrible choice, especially in the finals :lol:

If GOAT comparisons are fabricated by the media, it benefitted Jordan the most. He has neither the number of accolades across the board as Kareem nor as many chips as Russell and yet before he retired the first time they were calling him GOAT. People have been and will increasingly continue to call LeBron the GOAT now. Get with it.

[/quote]

There are damn good reasons MJ is considered the GOAT and one of them is in this very thread. He was arguably the most clutch player ever to play the game, went undefeated in the finals. there are many more but I'm sure you can look them up yourself. Don't forget MJ won the scoring title 10 freaking times! and was also DPOY, a feat lebron hasn't accomplished.

Lebron does not even begin to match MJ's resume so calling him the GOAT is just asinine.

Post #64 » by **-Sammy-** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:16 pm

CoffeeCakez wrote:
let alone the 2016 finals, which is the GOAT standard for a clutch series

based on what? kyrie irving averaged 27.1 ppg in that series and hit that go ahead clutch 3 at the end of game 7, lebron did not accomplish the 2016 feat alone.

Please link to an example of any player accomplishing a feat alone; otherwise, why make such a banal observation as 'LeBron didn't do it alone'? Why fixate on one isolated shot, as though all the other shots don't matter? (we both already know the answer, but it bears asking nonetheless)

Some of y'all are so rabid in your fixation to explain away everything that man does that it borders on obsession. It's not a good look.

CoffeeCakez wrote:
I take LeBron all day, including the final few minutes. It's not really difficult to see: LeBron is a more efficient scorer, a far better rebounder and passer, and a far more valuable defender.

based on the data presented in this thread, that would be a horrible choice, especially in the finals

I'm posting this for now the fourth time; perhaps the anti-LeBron crowd will finally address it:

Spoiler:

Jaivl · Post #65 » by **Jaivl** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:33 pm

CoffeeCakez wrote:right, magic johnson (1991 finals),stockton and malone (jazz series) are bad opponents?

You play teams, not players. The 91 Lakers were destroyed by injuries.

CoffeeCakez wrote:
I take LeBron all day, including the final few minutes. It's not really difficult to see: LeBron is a more efficient scorer, a far better rebounder and passer, and a far more valuable defender.

based on the data presented in this thread, that would be a horrible choice, especially in the finals

I would take Jordan over LBJ for the last shot, but LeBron has an extensive track record as a top-tier clutch performer. I'll always trust him to make the best play possible.

As shown on a post before, clutch numbers can easily paint the picture one wants just tweaking some requirements.

CoffeeCakez wrote:There are damn good reasons MJ is considered the GOAT and one of them is in this very thread. He was arguably the most clutch player ever to play the game, went undefeated in the finals. there are many more but I'm sure you can look them up yourself. Don't forget MJ won the scoring title 10 freaking times! and was also DPOY, a feat lebron hasn't accomplished.

Lebron does not even begin to match MJ's resume so calling him the GOAT is just asinine.

Jordan has a strong case for being the GOAT, but not for any of those reasons. "clutch" "undefeated in the finals" come on, this isn't 2007.

Long2s · Post #66 » by **Long2s** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:01 pm

BombsquadSammy wrote:
CoffeeCakez wrote:Some of y'all are so rabid in your fixation to explain away everything that man does that it borders on obsession. It's not a good look.

"Fair and balanced"?

Greed · Post #67 » by **Greed** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:09 pm

BombsquadSammy wrote:Some of y'all are so rabid in your fixation to explain away everything that man does that it borders on obsession. It's not a good look.

This is true, but it goes both ways. Both his defenders and his haters do the same thing in different directions

Post #68 » by **-Sammy-** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:09 pm

Long2s wrote:
BombsquadSammy wrote:
CoffeeCakez wrote:Some of y'all are so rabid in your fixation to explain away everything that man does that it borders on obsession. It's not a good look.

"Fair and balanced"?

You should do similar clutch-stats compilations for other players; may I suggest starting with former Laker Slava Medvedenko?

Long2s · Post #69 » by **Long2s** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:10 pm

BombsquadSammy wrote:
Long2s wrote:
BombsquadSammy wrote:

"Fair and balanced"?

You should do similar clutch-stats compilations for other players; may I suggest starting with former Laker Slava Medvedenko?

Why do you keep saying this?

Post #70 » by **-Sammy-** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:16 pm

Long2s wrote:
BombsquadSammy wrote:
Long2s wrote:
"Fair and balanced"?

You should do similar clutch-stats compilations for other players; may I suggest starting with former Laker Slava Medvedenko?

Why do you keep saying this?

Tee hee

Long2s · Post #71 » by **Long2s** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:17 pm

BombsquadSammy wrote:
Long2s wrote:
BombsquadSammy wrote:
You should do similar clutch-stats compilations for other players; may I suggest starting with former Laker Slava Medvedenko?

Why do you keep saying this?

Tee hee

I think it's supposed to be some kind of veiled threat are you trying to doxx me or something? I don't think that is proper mod behavior if so (hypothetically).

Post #72 » by **-Sammy-** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:21 pm

Long2s wrote:
BombsquadSammy wrote:
Long2s wrote:
Why do you keep saying this?

Tee hee

I think it's supposed to be some kind of veiled threat are you trying to doxx me or something? I don't think that is proper mod behavior if so (hypothetically).

What?! This is a basketball discussion forum and I'm talking about Slava Medvedenko, who's a basketball player. Unless you're Slava, what does that have to do with you personally? Why would your mind go there in the first place?

Long2s · Post #73 » by **Long2s** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:37 pm

BombsquadSammy wrote:
Long2s wrote:
BombsquadSammy wrote:
Tee hee

I think it's supposed to be some kind of veiled threat are you trying to doxx me or something? I don't think that is proper mod behavior if so (hypothetically).

What?! This is a basketball discussion forum and I'm talking about Slava Medvedenko, who's a basketball player. Unless you're Slava, what does that have to do with you personally? Why would your mind go there in the first place?

It's a strange thing to repeat over and over.

Why would you talk about Slava Medvedenko?

Post #74 » by **-Sammy-** » Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:30 am

Long2s wrote:
BombsquadSammy wrote:
Long2s wrote:
I think it's supposed to be some kind of veiled threat are you trying to doxx me or something? I don't think that is proper mod behavior if so (hypothetically).

What?! This is a basketball discussion forum and I'm talking about Slava Medvedenko, who's a basketball player. Unless you're Slava, what does that have to do with you personally? Why would your mind go there in the first place?

It's a strange thing to repeat over and over.

Why would you talk about Slava Medvedenko?

I'm just saying that you seem to have a knack for compiling stats. I mean, you've already done an accounting of some of Kobe's stats here on RealGM, so if you did another accounting of another player's stats on RealGM, then you'd have two accounts on RealGM.

Long2s · Post #75 » by **Long2s** » Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:05 am

BombsquadSammy wrote:
Long2s wrote:
BombsquadSammy wrote:
What?! This is a basketball discussion forum and I'm talking about Slava Medvedenko, who's a basketball player. Unless you're Slava, what does that have to do with you personally? Why would your mind go there in the first place?

It's a strange thing to repeat over and over.

Why would you talk about Slava Medvedenko?

I'm just saying that you seem to have a knack for compiling stats. I mean, you've already done an accounting of some of Kobe's stats here on RealGM, so if you did another accounting of another player's stats on RealGM, then you'd have two accounts on RealGM.

I see.

But no.

_Game7_ · Post #76 » by **_Game7_** » Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:23 am

27 gang hahahaha, submit to the King you Kobe nuthuggers.

Post #77 » by **PaulieWal** » Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:28 am

anglewings wrote:27 gang hahahaha, submit to the King you Kobe nuthuggers.

Consider this a verbal warning. Baiting and trolling like this isn't acceptable.

_Game7_ · Post #78 » by **_Game7_** » Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:48 am

My bad, just poking some fun.
I would admit MJ might be more clutch, for the mere fact he has a nice mid range game that he could get off at anytime. I don't believe Kobe was however, his mystic has surpassed him as a player IMO.

CoffeeCakez · Post #79 » by **CoffeeCakez** » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:42 am

anglewings wrote:My bad, just poking some fun.
I would admit MJ might be more clutch, for the mere fact he has a nice mid range game that he could get off at anytime. I don't believe Kobe was however, his mystic has surpassed him as a player IMO.

evidence for this?

CoffeeCakez · Post #80 » by **CoffeeCakez** » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:54 am

BombsquadSammy wrote:Please link to an example of any player accomplishing a feat alone; otherwise, why make such a banal observation as 'LeBron didn't do it alone'? Why fixate on one isolated shot, as though all the other shots don't matter? (we both already know the answer, but it bears asking nonetheless)

Some of y'all are so rabid in your fixation to explain away everything that man does that it borders on obsession. It's not a good look.

I agree no player wins a championship alone, LeBird was trying to attribute the 2016 series comeback solely/or mostly to lebron when in fact, kyrie had just as an important role. It's implied when he calls the 2016 series 'The GOAT clutch series for a player'.

I'm posting this for now the fourth time; perhaps the anti-LeBron crowd will finally address it:

I touched on this in a post on the GB thread, ill paste it here:

Spoiler: