bos gets gagne

[nykgeneralmanager]

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Please know what you are talking about before posting. How many quality minor leaguers have you graduated over the past 2 years to become good/all star quality starters with many more on the way....

Boston's system is good, I'd say its at the bottom of the ''top tier" (somewhere around #9 or 10).

The Yanks have brought up Cano, Wang, Melky...and now Andy Phillips looks like he can hold his own in the majors. Hughes has arrived, and Joba is coming right behind him. That's a pretty good list with a lot more coming in the next year or two. That's probably a lot more than most other contending teams, and certainly more than Boston.

[HCYanks]

Better to let the Red Sox take the rental than to up the offer. Getting in a bidding war just to out-do a specific team is never, ever a good idea.

[The Rondo Show]

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How many have you?

All you guys have is Buchholz and Ellsbury right now that are ready to make an impact within a year.

Justin Masterson could certainly make an impact next year; if not in the rotation, then as a reliever. Jed Lowrie isn't more than a year away either, but with Lugo playing much better and Pedroia one of the favorites to win ROY and securing his spot for close to the next decade, he probably won't be making his impact with Boston. As NYKGM said, Boston's farm is not mediocre. It isn't Tampa Bay or even as good as the Yankees, but it is probably towards the bottom of the top 10.

Not bad at all considering how much young talent they already have on their major league team.

[Markos]

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Boston's system is good, I'd say its at the bottom of the ''top tier" (somewhere around #9 or 10).

The Yanks have brought up Cano, Wang, Melky...and now Andy Phillips looks like he can hold his own in the majors. Hughes has arrived, and Joba is coming right behind him. That's a pretty good list with a lot more coming in the next year or two. That's probably a lot more than most other contending teams, and certainly more than Boston.

Thats essentially what I was saying. Its not mediocre. I disagree however that you've brought up better quality players from 05-07. Papelbon, Pedroia, Youkilis, Lester, DelCarmen are better IMO than Wang, Cano, Melky and Philips. And Dice-K was technically rated the number one prospect in all of baseball this spring.

[cmaff051]

Enough with the prospect bitchfights, Markos. Both teams have developed impact and everyday players at the major league level.

[Markos]

Enough with the prospect bitchfights, Markos. Both teams have developed impact and everyday players at the major league level.

and both fanbases overrate their prospects

[Pharmcat]

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Liriano had about 6 arm injuries before last season, which is why the Giants were so willing to deal him. Try again

i recall paps getting a tired shoulder last year

[nykgeneralmanager]

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i recall paps getting a tired shoulder last year

The Red Sox were pretty careless with him because he was their closer, so when there was a save situation he was in there...and often times for more than an inning. Also, he was pitching in relief for a lot longer than 2 months, which is why his arm got tired. Papelbon pitched nearly 70 innings in the regular season last year in relief, Joba won't come close to that amount. No worries. And if Joba does have any problems, we will be thankful that it is only a tired arm.

[Chach]

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The Red Sox were pretty careless with him because he was their closer, so when there was a save situation he was in there...and often times for more than an inning. Also, he was pitching in relief for a lot longer than 2 months, which is why his arm got tired. Papelbon pitched nearly 70 innings in the regular season last year in relief, Joba won't come close to that amount. No worries. And if Joba does have any problems, we will be thankful that it is only a tired arm.

I was actually disgusted with how Tito used Papelbon last year, he was clearly abused. Papelbon pitched 70 innings out of the pen before September, no wonder he was tired.

I wouldn't expect a Papelbon in '05 performance out of Joba this year because Papelbon closed in college and had considerable experience coming out of the pen so he was used to it. Joba has not, as far as I know, worked out of the pen before last week. But he does have the stuff to blow hitters away out of the pen so it's not impossible.

I'm sorry but I just don't understand how the Yankees don't part with a Horne or Kennedy for Gagne. If the pen was in better shape, sure, but the way the pen is and with how top heavy the system is in pitching, do you honestly expect to break camp in 2009 with a Hughes/Chamberlain/Kennedy/Horne/Clippard rotation with all the money you guys have? I understand the desire to have a homegrown rotation and offense (I do the same for the Sox) but to give up one of your "untouchable" guys who does not profile as a front line player (Hughes and Chamberlain would be my only two untouchables) for a two month rental to put you guys into the playoffs and allow your offense to make magic in October is slightly foolish. If it took trading Michael Bowden, a Sox untouchable, to get Gagne (and keep him from the Yanks), I would do it in a heartbeat because we already have Beckett and Dice-K to go with Lester, Buchholz, Masterson, and company. mahalo
~Chach~

[nykgeneralmanager]

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I was actually disgusted with how Tito used Papelbon last year, he was clearly abused. Papelbon pitched 70 innings out of the pen before September, no wonder he was tired.

I wouldn't expect a Papelbon in '05 performance out of Joba this year because Papelbon closed in college and had considerable experience coming out of the pen so he was used to it. Joba has not, as far as I know, worked out of the pen before last week. But he does have the stuff to blow hitters away out of the pen so it's not impossible.

I'm sorry but I just don't understand how the Yankees don't part with a Horne or Kennedy for Gagne. If the pen was in better shape, sure, but the way the pen is and with how top heavy the system is in pitching, do you honestly expect to break camp in 2009 with a Hughes/Chamberlain/Kennedy/Horne/Clippard rotation with all the money you guys have? I understand the desire to have a homegrown rotation and offense (I do the same for the Sox) but to give up one of your "untouchable" guys who does not profile as a front line player (Hughes and Chamberlain would be my only two untouchables) for a two month rental to put you guys into the playoffs and allow your offense to make magic in October is slightly foolish. If it took trading Michael Bowden, a Sox untouchable, to get Gagne (and keep him from the Yanks), I would do it in a heartbeat because we already have Beckett and Dice-K to go with Lester, Buchholz, Masterson, and company. mahalo
~Chach~

Well, it's just two different philosophies. Neither one can really be proven as the better one. You need 5 good starters, and the Yankees feel they have them. They won't break camp with all of those guys, but Hughes and (likely) Joba will. Maybe Ian Kennedy as well, but Horne will be in AAA and be called up if there is an injury. If you feel you have a guy who will be in your rotation for a decade, why in the world give him up for a 2 month rental? Especially when Joba is ready to step into the pen like he is. And while he may not have the experience in the bullpen, his stuff and mental makeup indicates he can handle it. He isn't being asked to close, probably not even pitch the 8th, so he'll be in a good situation to succeed. The Yankees trust him that much, so why give up on Kennedy or Horne, who they are also high on?

[Chach]

Because Joba and Mo at the end of the game may not be enough to get you guys into the playoffs. Sure, Horne could be pitching in the rotation for the next decade but the Yankees have enough money that they can buy another #5 starter with equal to better talent. What they couldn't do was buy a reliever before the 31st.

Hey, if you want to hold onto every good minor leaguer you guys develop, fine by me. If you want to be the LA Angels of New York, that's your choice. I just think that you're going to end up being burnt more often when it comes to post-season play by planning too far into the future. mahalo
~Chach~

[nykgeneralmanager]

Because Joba and Mo at the end of the game may not be enough to get you guys into the playoffs. Sure, Horne could be pitching in the rotation for the next decade but the Yankees have enough money that they can buy another #5 starter with equal to better talent. What they couldn't do was buy a reliever before the 31st.

Hey, if you want to hold onto every good minor leaguer you guys develop, fine by me. If you want to be the LA Angels of New York, that's your choice. I just think that you're going to end up being burnt more often when it comes to post-season play by planning too far into the future. mahalo
~Chach~

Texas wanted Kennedy, who is a lot better than Horne and much more of a sure thing IMO. I personally would have hung up on Daniels once he requested Kennedy.

EDIT: And having about 5 guys in your farm system deemed untouchable doesn't mean the Yanks want to keep everybody.

[Chach]

And Horne plus whoever is a hell of a lot better than the package they got from the Sox. I find it hard to believe the Yankees offered Horne and the Rangers went with Gabbard. mahalo
~Chach~

[Jitpal]

That Horne package was asked for by Texas, the Yanks said no to my understanding. -Jitpal

[nykgeneralmanager]

It depends what the package was including. Olney said the Yanks would've had to give up Kennedy+ or Melky+. So if Texas would've taken Horne, they may have been demanding Melky with him. Again, no way.

[Pharmcat]

It depends what the package was including. Olney said the Yanks would've had to give up Kennedy+ or Melky+. So if Texas would've taken Horne, they may have been demanding Melky with him. Again, no way.

i highly doubt they asked yanks for that and then gave him away for garbage

[cmaff051]

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i highly doubt they asked yanks for that and then gave him away for garbage

You are wrong. Once again. Olney said it himself.

Please, just stop, you are embarrasing yourself.

[PR07]

I can't fault the Yankees for sticking with their plan and continuing to develop our young talent namely starting pitching especially when you look at the fact that Gagne is probably just a 2 month rental. It's much harder to find quality starters than it is bullpen help these days on the open market. Gagne was a free agent this offseason, and he'll be a free agent again likely next offseason. The Yanks need to stop worrying about the short-term fix and start looking at the bigger picture.

[cmaff051]

I can't fault the Yankees for sticking with their plan and continuing to develop our young talent namely starting pitching especially when you look at the fact that Gagne is probably just a 2 month rental. It's much harder to find quality starters than it is bullpen help these days on the open market. Gagne was a free agent this offseason, and he'll be a free agent again likely next offseason. The Yanks need to stop worrying about the short-term fix and start looking at the bigger picture.

[Pharmcat]

I can't fault the Yankees for sticking with their plan and continuing to develop our young talent namely starting pitching especially when you look at the fact that Gagne is probably just a 2 month rental. It's much harder to find quality starters than it is bullpen help these days on the open market. Gagne was a free agent this offseason, and he'll be a free agent again likely next offseason. The Yanks need to stop worrying about the short-term fix and start looking at the bigger picture.

which they are now forced to do by coverting SP prospects into relievers