Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIV

[daoneandonly]

Zero interest in that trade. The only player on our roster I would trade for Barea is Mahinmi and Jason Smith.

Isn't there a rule about on RealGm about countering with terrible lobsided offers? While the one I posted may not be good, no team should ever or will ever have to take Mahinmi's contract. And Smith sucks.

I don't know about rules, but pcbothwei didn't actually counter w/ an offer; he said what he'd be interested in is all.

Still, why ever would Dallas be interested in either of those guys?

As to your suggested deal, Barea is on his way to being 34. Good tho he is, I can't see a reason to bring him on in place of Satoransky.

Edit -- hey, daone... what is your take on Noel?

he's as good as gone from the mavs, I think there's no saving that relationship. The key thing is because he signed a QO, he essentially has a no trade clause, meaning he can veto any trade he wants. But I think Dal would gladly trade him for a young player or an early 2nd if it became available.

[pcbothwel]

You don't know what you are talking about. 16/9/2 as a starting center is not getting "outplayed". He doesn't fit in a frontcourt with GOBERT which depresses his stats, but Rudy is the only post player on the roster who is "better" (Favors is a better 2 way player).

Lol. Ok bud. You can argue about Udoh being better or not, Im cool with that. But the fact us you're not getting a 1st and Oubre for Favors.
Cleveland should be who you call.
Gortat is having just as good of a year, if not better than Favors. So it doesnt give us an upgrade and we'd have to re-sign him this summer.

Oubre is for moving Mahimni And Gortat isn't having as good of a year as Favors, especially at center. 9/8/2 in 27 minutes is not nearly as productive as 16/9/2 on 29 minutes. I'm cool with you not wanting to make that trade (personally I think it's reasonable and makes Washington quite a bit better), but it really helps to do some research. Favors is a massive upgrade, and there is little to no competition to resign him in the summer.

If you want to look at counting stats then what are we even talking about. Centers in the modern day need to play defense/protect the rim, be efficient scoring particularly around the basket, and get shooters free by setting great picks.
Gortat does all those things, specifically the last one. It doesnt show up in points and rebounds for him, but it does show up in the eye test and +/-. Its why i trust RPM when it comes to Centers.
Gortat is ranked 13th in Wins and 24th in RPM at 0.04.
Favors has an RPM of -0.12.

Now, that doesnt mean Gortat is better. But it is a good indicator of how effective a big is outside of scoring points, blocking shots, and getting rebounds. The league is about shooting now and the entire team is/should be built around having shooters and getting them open looks.

No different to how the NFL is completely built on the QB. As that became apparent over the last 20 years, teams focused solely on getting a QB and then protecting them with a great OL, specifically a Left Tackle.

Wall, Beal, and Otto are our QB's... and Gortat plays the part of a really undervalued Left Tackle.

[babyjax13]

Lol. Ok bud. You can argue about Udoh being better or not, Im cool with that. But the fact us you're not getting a 1st and Oubre for Favors.
Cleveland should be who you call.
Gortat is having just as good of a year, if not better than Favors. So it doesnt give us an upgrade and we'd have to re-sign him this summer.

Oubre is for moving Mahimni And Gortat isn't having as good of a year as Favors, especially at center. 9/8/2 in 27 minutes is not nearly as productive as 16/9/2 on 29 minutes. I'm cool with you not wanting to make that trade (personally I think it's reasonable and makes Washington quite a bit better), but it really helps to do some research. Favors is a massive upgrade, and there is little to no competition to resign him in the summer.

If you want to look at counting stats then what are we even talking about. Centers in the modern day need to play defense/protect the rim, be efficient scoring particularly around the basket, and get shooters free by setting great picks.
Gortat does all those things, specifically the last one. It doesnt show up in points and rebounds for him, but it does show up in the eye test and +/-. Its why i trust RPM when it comes to Centers.
Gortat is ranked 13th in Wins and 24th in RPM at 0.04.
Favors has an RPM of -0.12.

Now, that doesnt mean Gortat is better. But it is a good indicator of how effective a big is outside of scoring points, blocking shots, and getting rebounds. The league is about shooting now and the entire team is/should be built around having shooters and getting them open looks.

No different to how the NFL is completely built on the QB. As that became apparent over the last 20 years, teams focused solely on getting a QB and then protecting them with a great OL, specifically a Left Tackle.

Wall, Beal, and Otto are our QB's... and Gortat plays the part of a really undervalued Left Tackle.

Our centers get a lot of screen assists (Gobert averages 4.9 while Gortat averages 5.1). Favors are depressed because we don't have our power forwards run the PnR nearly as much, but when he's at center he is very effective (averages 2.7 per game but there are no split stats, I'd be willing to bet he's around 4 when at center just because that's what we have our centers do and he is excellent in the PnR). That still puts him among the best in the league (https://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/?sort=SCREEN_ASSISTS&dir=1).

When it comes to defense Favors also contests more shots (2-PT Favors 4.9/game, Gortat 5.1; 3-PT Favors 2.6/game, Gortat 1.2) and deflects more passes (1.2/game vs. .8) while recovering the same amount of loose balls but drawing less charges (.25/game vs 0).

It's still up in the air how well RPM works as a stat (e.g. RPM says Udoh is better than Favors and Gobert), and it seems that no one really knows what's happening with it. That being said, Gortat's RPM is .04 but it is -1.89 on offense and 1.93 on defense. Favors is -.12 but it is -1.36 on offense and 1.24 on defense. Part of the RPMs calculations are based on who plays the same position as you, so Favors stats are getting depressed by the fact that we have excellent post defenders (including him) and when he plays power forward he's being horribly misused. You will see below that when it comes to being a roll man and finishing in the paint, Favors is actually excellent... so asked to do what Gortat is doing, is ORPM is likely to be much higher (and likely is much higher at center, but we don't have split stats).

Looking at PER, Favors is a better player (18.95, likely higher at center vs. 14.85). Favors also draws more fouls, shoots a higher percentage at center, is a better PnR finisher, is a better freethrow shooter, is more mobile, has a larger wingspan, likely a larger standing reach, and is just ... bigger. Have him run the amount of screens that Gortat runs and he likely averages just as many screen asssists and improves your team in so many ways.

Favors is also a much better PnR finisher (53%FG vs 38%FG) and we have him run the PNR for a lot of freethrow line jumpers+ he has to content with Gobert in the same operating space which depresses that percentage (https://stats.nba.com/players/roll-man/?sort=aFG&dir=1&CF=Time*G*15:GP*G*10:PossG*G*1.5). This is supported by the fact that he is one of the best finishers in the league in the restricted area (https://stats.nba.com/players/shooting/?Season=2017-18&DistanceRange=By%20Zone&sort=Restricted%20Area%20FG%20PCT&dir=1&CF=Restricted%20Area%20FGA*G*2&SeasonType=Regular%20Season). Our problem is we have one of the few centers who is better than Favors.

I don't even want Gortat, my idea was to ship him to a third team (the Pelicans for Asik+pick). It's fine to want to keep him and to think he's valuable, but your defense of him > Favors is really bad.

[bsilver]

Favors for Gortat+lottery protected 1st? Or Favors+Sefelosha for Mahimni+Oubre+lotto protected 1st?

No chance. He's outplayed by Gobert and Udoh at Center, as well as Jerebko at PF. Hes an 11M expiring on top of it.

You don't know what you are talking about. 16/9/2 as a starting center is not getting "outplayed". He doesn't fit in a frontcourt with GOBERT which depresses his stats, but Rudy is the only post player on the roster who is "better" (Favors is a better 2 way player).

I agree with you that Favors is a significant upgrade over Gortat. However, there's no reason to think Favors will re-sign with us. So we could end up with nothing and lose the pick!

[babyjax13]

No chance. He's outplayed by Gobert and Udoh at Center, as well as Jerebko at PF. Hes an 11M expiring on top of it.

You don't know what you are talking about. 16/9/2 as a starting center is not getting "outplayed". He doesn't fit in a frontcourt with GOBERT which depresses his stats, but Rudy is the only post player on the roster who is "better" (Favors is a better 2 way player).

I agree with you that Favors is a significant upgrade over Gortat. However, there's no reason to think Favors will re-sign with us. So we could end up with nothing and lose the pick!

That's a legitimate concern, and if you don't think you can resign him then there is no way you should do the trade. That being said I don't think it's likely that another team signs him for whatever that is worth. This is just copied from another thread.

Here are teams that would have cap to sign him:

Atlanta: not on their timeline, but hometown. They have Collins.
Brooklyn: doesn't seem like he's on their timeline, only if Linn opts out (not likely)
Cleveland: if they renounce LeBron and Thomas = not happening
Chicago: Have Portis and Rolo, not on their timeline
Dallas: maybe?
Denver: Jokic, only if Millsap opts out
Houston: Capella, only if they renounce Paul
Indiana: Turner, seem happy with Young
Clippers: Jordan (but maybe if he opts out along with one of Rivers/Teodosic/Johnson?)
Lakers: bigger fish to fry, but if they strike out
Knicks: (if Kanter opts out) Porzingas
Thunder: (if Anthony and George opt out and are not resigned) Adams
76ers: Simmons, Embiid
Suns: doesn't make sense w/timeline, most developing players in frontcourt
Kings: doesn't make sense w/timeline, but hey, they're weird
Jazz: Gobert, plus can't b/c they traded him

I've bolded the most likely suitors, but I think some of them don't make any sense. Plus Atlanta, Chicago, Dallas, Phoenix, and Sacramento are all teams likely to end up with Ayton/Bamba/Jackson/Bagley. The only teams that really make sense are the Pacers and Lakers, and Washington is likely a better situation, the Lakers might wrap up their roster with star free agents, and the Pacers seem happy with Young + will likely be chasing bigger free agents. For any other team looking at Favors he is going to be second priority, Washington will have a chance to sign him while other teams are still negotiating with LeBron, etc. If they like him, I don't think he's a flight risk.

[payitforward]

First time I looked at it, I didn't notice that you were suggesting dealing Mahinmi, Meeks & our R1 pick for both Monroe & Len. Aside from giving away a R1 pick for 2 guys who will be unrestricted FAs in a few months, an idea I think makes no sense except in an absolute emergency, you have just added something over $2m to our salary this year. Given the tax, that might wind up being closer to $5m.

You predicate it on dealing Gortat, which might or might not solve the tax problem, but unless we traded him for a Center, the result of all these maneuvers would be that we didn't have even a single Center on the team next year! Mahinmi, Meeks, Gortat & a mid-R1 pick would be gone, & we would have... whoever we got for Gortat. That's it.

You're not giving any detail of why we wouldn't be able to keep both guys. What are you anticipating both players will make? Because Mahinmi and Meeks represent 20 million of our cap next season. Dedmon got 7 million last summer, Olynyk got 12.5 as a stretch 5 which are always in high demand. I don't see either getting much on the open market.

Faze, there is no such thing as "keeping" an unrestricted FA. You have just as much chance to sign him as any other team, & you have no more chance to sign him than any other team. If you sign him, you haven't kept him, you've just signed an unrestricted FA -- as we did with Mahinmi. It is not different in any way.

Nor do you have any particular reason to choose him over any other FA you might prefer.

In short, your trade deals Mahinmi, Meeks & a R1 pick for... nothing. For the services of Len & Monroe over the coming 48 games plus the playoffs. Period. Nothing else. Even if you would prefer to obscure that fact, it is still a fact.

Now, if you think it's worth giving away Mahinmi, Meeks, & a R1 pick simply for the tax/cap relief, then say so.

[NatP4]

Except, you know, bird rights that allow you keep a player when you have salary cap issues.

Other than that, sure, no advantage over other teams

[payitforward]

Keep the pick.

No kidding.

I can't believe people can look at our current salary structure mess & keep wanting to trade away R1 picks. Doesn't compute.

[payitforward]

Except, you know, bird rights that allow you keep a player when you have salary cap issues.

Other than that, sure, no advantage over other teams

In our case, Bird rights are meaningless: if we did this deal, we'd have 8 guys (w/ Gortat & Smith) for something over $100m -- over the cap w/ 8 players. To stay under the tax, we'll need 7 more players for under $20m total. We'll need good players at low salaries. We can't sign mediocrities at current NBA mediocre salaries.

The way you get the best players on your team with inexpensive, multi-year contracts that give you some control is by drafting them.

The way you get mid-career players who are better than what they're being paid is by having assets to trade -- e.g. guys you drafted.

From the last 4.5 drafts (r2 of 2013 until now), we have 1 player, Oubre, who fits this bill. We also have Morris, for whom we could never get anywhere near what we gave to acquire him. We have Gortat, who has been a high value player but is noticeably. & we have a 1-year rent-a-player - Tim Frazier.

From the 3 R1 picks we had in 2010, we have 1 player -- & we got nothing whatever for the other 2.

From the 3 picks we had in 2011, we have zero players & got nothing by way of a trade.

This is how you wind up signing bums & cast-offs. Once in a while you get lucky -- no skill required -- but even that luck doesn't help build your team: Butler didn't & Scott can't either.

Stay on the same path, & this generation of the Wizards is done for.

[TGW]

Remember when I proposed Wall for CP3 and Capela and got roasted by half of this board? Lol

Actually, no, I don't. Please link to it.

I'd roast that trade, for sure -- i.e. Houston would never make that trade. No team would.

Remember when I proposed that Otto Porter for Giannis trade and got roasted? Lol you guys are so dumb.

That post is example #3,583 why I have that idiot on ignore.

[ClutchDJ]

Remember when I proposed Wall for CP3 and Capela and got roasted by half of this board? Lol

Nah, cause you never did.

[NatP4]

Remember when I proposed Wall for CP3 and Capela and got roasted by half of this board? Lol

Actually, no, I don't. Please link to it.

I'd roast that trade, for sure -- i.e. Houston would never make that trade. No team would.

Remember when I proposed that Otto Porter for Giannis trade and got roasted? Lol you guys are so dumb.

That post is example #3,583 why I have that idiot on ignore.

I have never seen you post anything relevant to the wizards. Just constant complaining about other posters.

Sometimes I wonder, how depressing must this guys life really be?

[NatP4]

Remember when I proposed Wall for CP3 and Capela and got roasted by half of this board? Lol

Nah, cause you never did.

Post the trade or get roasted? Cause I 100% posted that proposed trade, and I 100% received backlash from some Wall fanboys.

[Ruzious]

First time I looked at it, I didn't notice that you were suggesting dealing Mahinmi, Meeks & our R1 pick for both Monroe & Len. Aside from giving away a R1 pick for 2 guys who will be unrestricted FAs in a few months, an idea I think makes no sense except in an absolute emergency, you have just added something over $2m to our salary this year. Given the tax, that might wind up being closer to $5m.

You predicate it on dealing Gortat, which might or might not solve the tax problem, but unless we traded him for a Center, the result of all these maneuvers would be that we didn't have even a single Center on the team next year! Mahinmi, Meeks, Gortat & a mid-R1 pick would be gone, & we would have... whoever we got for Gortat. That's it.

You're not giving any detail of why we wouldn't be able to keep both guys. What are you anticipating both players will make? Because Mahinmi and Meeks represent 20 million of our cap next season. Dedmon got 7 million last summer, Olynyk got 12.5 as a stretch 5 which are always in high demand. I don't see either getting much on the open market.

Faze, there is no such thing as "keeping" an unrestricted FA. You have just as much chance to sign him as any other team, & you have no more chance to sign him than any other team. If you sign him, you haven't kept him, you've just signed an unrestricted FA -- as we did with Mahinmi. It is not different in any way.

Nor do you have any particular reason to choose him over any other FA you might prefer.

In short, your trade deals Mahinmi, Meeks & a R1 pick for... nothing. For the services of Len & Monroe over the coming 48 games plus the playoffs. Period. Nothing else. Even if you would prefer to obscure that fact, it is still a fact.

Now, if you think it's worth giving away Mahinmi, Meeks, & a R1 pick simply for the tax/cap relief, then say so.

Unfortunately, that's probably a better deal than EG made last year with the Bogdanovich trade, so it wouldn't surprise me if EG does something similar - and perhaps worse. I'm mentally prepared for a Monroe trade.

[dckingsfan]

...In short, your trade deals Mahinmi, Meeks & a R1 pick for... nothing...

When you look at that off season of Nicholson and Mahinmi - I have a really hard time understanding how anyone thinks of EG as a good GM. It will end up taking two firsts to rid of us of those very bad contracts. Sigh.

...

[NatP4]

...In short, your trade deals Mahinmi, Meeks & a R1 pick for... nothing...

When you look at that off season of Nicholson and Mahinmi - I have a really hard time understanding how anyone thinks of EG as a good GM. It will end up taking two firsts to rid of us of those very bad contracts. Sigh.

...

I see no indication of us trading our 1st round pick to move Mahinmi, who has been a useful player for us. It’s not hard to look at this roster and think that we might have the 2nd most talented team in the east.

In fact, it’s really not that difficult to throw some praise at ernie for putting together this team.

The team has a good bench that has been winning games for them and creating massive leads, Satoransky (2nd round pick), Mike Scott(vet min), Kelly Oubre (traded up, steal of the 2015 draft), Ian Mahinmi (signed) have all been good this season. Ernie drafted and retained 3 max players all 27 or younger and under contract for the next 4 years, one of the best if not THE best young core in the eastern conference. He also found a terrific undrafted player in Sheldon Mac who would be playing over Meeks if he didn’t rupture his Achilles in preseason. Jason Smith has also been a decent value signing for his veteran locker room presence. He made a bad mistake with the Nicholson signing which cost us our 2017 1st, no doubt. We are definitely short on that asset.

The biggest complaint I would have about Ernie right now is signing Scott Brooks, because this team could be 30-6 and the top seed in the east if they just beat the bad teams they’ve played.

[NatP4]

I’m still looking at Will Barton with the the hopes that he might re sign at a discount. He’s said that it would be a dream to play at home in DC, and I think he’s the type of ball handling wing that we need. Also Hernangomez isn’t playing much for them, he’s under contract for the next 3 seasons, maybe we could target him in the deal as well.

Something like Juancho+Will Barton for Morris+2018 1st round pick

Wall Satoransky
Beal Meeks
Oubre Barton
Porter Juancho
Gortat Mahinmi

[dckingsfan]

...In short, your trade deals Mahinmi, Meeks & a R1 pick for... nothing...

When you look at that off season of Nicholson and Mahinmi - I have a really hard time understanding how anyone thinks of EG as a good GM. It will end up taking two firsts to rid of us of those very bad contracts. Sigh.

...

I see no indication of us trading our 1st round pick to move Mahinmi, who has been a useful player for us. It’s not hard to look at this roster and think that we might have the 2nd most talented team in the east.

In fact, it’s really not that difficult to throw some praise at ernie for putting together this team.

The team has a good bench that has been winning games for them and creating massive leads, Satoransky (2nd round pick), Mike Scott(vet min), Kelly Oubre (traded up, steal of the 2015 draft), Ian Mahinmi (signed) have all been good this season. Ernie drafted and retained 3 max players all 27 or younger and under contract for the next 4 years, one of the best if not THE best young core in the eastern conference. He also found a terrific undrafted player in Sheldon Mac who would be playing over Meeks if he didn’t rupture his Achilles in preseason. Jason Smith has also been a decent value signing for his veteran locker room presence. He made a bad mistake with the Nicholson signing which cost us our 2017 1st, no doubt. We are definitely short on that asset.

The biggest complaint I would have about Ernie right now is signing Scott Brooks, because this team could be 30-6 and the top seed in the east if they just beat the bad teams they’ve played.

Okay - that would be another view, arguably.

I think reality is we have a .556 winning percentage and are over the luxury tax. At least he shed our second round picks in 2019, 2020 and 2021 - because we know EG doesn't want to have to do the work of figuring out players that deep in the draft...

[dckingsfan]

I’m still looking at Will Barton with the the hopes that he might re sign at a discount. He’s said that it would be a dream to play at home in DC, and I think he’s the type of ball handling wing that we need. Also Hernangomez isn’t playing much for them, he’s under contract for the next 3 seasons, maybe we could target him in the deal as well.

Something like Juancho+Will Barton for Morris+2018 1st round pick

Wall Satoransky
Beal Meeks
Oubre Barton
Porter Juancho
Gortat Mahinmi

Isn't Barton playing the second most minutes on the Nuggets right now? You think they would give him up while they are on their playoff run? And Denver has five PF right now, they would want to add another because?

Now, if we hadn't signed Nicholson/Mahinmi...

[dangermouse]

A second ball-handler on the second unit that can bring the ball up when Sato is being pestered by those quick little guards, would be good to have.

Unless we already have him, I cant remember how good Mac was. Is he healed yet? He should do a D league stint for a while.