High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron vs Iverson

[bledredwine]

Lol Jordan is crazy


38 playoff games with 40+ points ( 8 @ 50+ points). 25 of them had 30 + fgas, a lot of them well over 30)

So Jordan scored and shot like a mad man. That was his game though. But just showing how this criteria is taylored to him and Kobe.

Very stupid and bias way to try discredit someone. Guess it’s one way to compare Lebron to vastly inferior guys like kobe and iverson

Yeah. When Lebron or Kobe has a 40 point playoff game, it's usually considered one of the best of their career. Jordan averaged 40 or more in five series, including once in the finals, once with back to back 50 point games against the Cavs, and once averaging 45 (1992 heat). All were very efficient. Pretty amazing considering it's against playoff defenses. I don't know the updated stats but 5 years ago this was a fact - 50 point playoff games. Jordan - 8 rest of the league combined - 13. I believe Kobe had 1 and Lebron 0. That's not simple volume shooting. That's an incredible talent.

[DidUSaySometing]

Jordan was not an efficient 40 PPG scorer

[AndriPerdhian93]

Come on guys, this is a useful stats bring some discussion.

No, it's a pointless stat and that's being really generous. You seem to think you are examining high volume scoring, but you aren't. You are examining high volume shooting. I mean you leave out LeBron's 45 point masterpiece against the Celtics since he only took 26 shots. I'm fairly certain that qualifies as high volume scoring. This is a stat that tells us nothing worth knowing.

He just pick stat to suit his idol kobe.

[bledredwine]

Jordan was not an efficient 40 PPG scorer

What??? Here are all of his playoff series. 1992 - averaged 45 PPG against the Heat on 61% FG (yes you read that correctly). 1986 against Boston - averages 43.6 PPG on 51%. 1990 philly averages 43 PPG on 55%. 1993 Phoenix 41 PPG on 51%. All over 50 FG%. I also question the stats you put up. I'd ask you to compare these to another player, but who else has averaged 40 in a playoff series since?

[Jaivl]

Jordan was not an efficient 40 PPG scorer

Even the "least efficient" 40-point games there are very, very efficient. That's a weird criticism.

[DidUSaySometing]

Jordan was not an efficient 40 PPG scorer

What??? Here are all of his playoff series. 1992 - averaged 45 PPG against the Heat on 61% FG (yes you read that correctly). 1986 against Boston - averages 43.6 PPG on 51%. 1990 philly averages 43 PPG on 55%. 1993 Phoenix 41 PPG on 51%. All over 50 FG%. I also question the stats you put up. I'd ask you to compare these to another player, but who else has averaged 40 in a playoff series since?

reg season not playoffs

[bledredwine]

What??? Here are all of his playoff series. 1992 - averaged 45 PPG against the Heat on 61% FG (yes you read that correctly). 1986 against Boston - averages 43.6 PPG on 51%. 1990 philly averages 43 PPG on 55%. 1993 Phoenix 41 PPG on 51%. All over 50 FG%. I also question the stats you put up. I'd ask you to compare these to another player, but who else has averaged 40 in a playoff series since?

reg season not playoffs

.646 is very efficient. And considering he did it what 180 times? That's amazing. Lebron's only what .02 higher with only 15 40 point games in comparison to Jordans 185 40 point games? That means that for every time Lebron scored 40 points once, Jordan did it 12 times. And Kobe was less efficient. Jordan clearly has the upper hand here. On top of this, Lebron's record is 5-10, Kobe 1-10, Jordans nearly 500. Very telling.

[bledredwine]

I also have to find this stat but I know it's true - 75 percentish of Kobe AND Lebron's 40+ point games have happened against losing teams whereas the majority of Jordan's came against winning teams (over .500). I'll have to figure that out unless someone beats me to it.

[DidUSaySometing]

What??? Here are all of his playoff series. 1992 - averaged 45 PPG against the Heat on 61% FG (yes you read that correctly). 1986 against Boston - averages 43.6 PPG on 51%. 1990 philly averages 43 PPG on 55%. 1993 Phoenix 41 PPG on 51%. All over 50 FG%. I also question the stats you put up. I'd ask you to compare these to another player, but who else has averaged 40 in a playoff series since?

reg season not playoffs

.646 is very efficient. And considering he did it what 180 times? That's amazing. Lebron's only what .02 higher with only 15 40 point games in comparison to Jordans 180 40 point games? And Kobe less efficient? Jordan clearly has the upper hand here. On top of this, Lebron's record is 5-10, Kobe 1-10, Jordans nearly 500. Very telling.

in the reg season lebron and iverson had a better record
lebron 78 win%
iverson 75 win%
jordan 70 win%
kobe 69 win%
wade 61 win%

[bledredwine]

.646 is very efficient. And considering he did it what 180 times? That's amazing. Lebron's only what .02 higher with only 15 40 point games in comparison to Jordans 180 40 point games? And Kobe less efficient? Jordan clearly has the upper hand here. On top of this, Lebron's record is 5-10, Kobe 1-10, Jordans nearly 500. Very telling.

in the reg season lebron and iverson had a better record
lebron 78 win%
iverson 75 win%
jordan 70 win%
kobe 69 win%
wade 61 win%

When iverson is on top in that category, and Wade jordan on bottom... I know not to take that stat seriously. On top of that - a 70 to 78 percent win difference is so marginal that it's negligible. It's not mammoth like Jordan's 185 40 point games to Lebron's 15, for example. And that arbitrary stat makes sense, given the scrubs that jordan and Kobe had to play with during their highest scoring seasons. There was a reason they had to score so much.

[DidUSaySometing]

.646 is very efficient. And considering he did it what 180 times? That's amazing. Lebron's only what .02 higher with only 15 40 point games in comparison to Jordans 180 40 point games? And Kobe less efficient? Jordan clearly has the upper hand here. On top of this, Lebron's record is 5-10, Kobe 1-10, Jordans nearly 500. Very telling.

in the reg season lebron and iverson had a better record
lebron 78 win%
iverson 75 win%
jordan 70 win%
kobe 69 win%
wade 61 win%

When iverson is on top in that category, and Wade jordan on bottom... I know not to take that stat seriously. On top of that - a 70 to 78 percent win difference is so marginal that it's negligible. It's not mammoth like Jordan's 185 40 point games to Lebron's 15, for example. And that arbitrary stat makes sense, given the scrubs that jordan and Kobe had to play with during their highest scoring seasons. There was a reason they had to score so much.

lebron, iverson, kobe, and jordan are better scorers than wade, it's not a surprise he only has a 61 win% when he scores 40+ PPG. lebron also has a much higher TS% when he shoots 30+ FGA in the reg season, and his team has a higher win% change

[Long2s]

Regular season is meaningless.

[Dupp]

I also have to find this stat but I know it's true - 75 percentish of Kobe AND Lebron's 40+ point games have happened against losing teams whereas the majority of Jordan's came against winning teams (over .500). I'll have to figure that out unless someone beats me to it.

Doubt it but does it really matter this thread is about playoffs no? That stat obviously isn’t close to correct for post season 40 point games.

[Dupp]

Lol Jordan is crazy


38 playoff games with 40+ points ( 8 @ 50+ points). 25 of them had 30 + fgas, a lot of them well over 30)

So Jordan scored and shot like a mad man. That was his game though. But just showing how this criteria is taylored to him and Kobe.

Very stupid and bias way to try discredit someone. Guess it’s one way to compare Lebron to vastly inferior guys like kobe and iverson

Yeah. When Lebron or Kobe has a 40 point playoff game, it's usually considered one of the best of their career. Jordan averaged 40 or more in five series, including once in the finals, once with back to back 50 point games against the Cavs, and once averaging 45 (1992 heat). All were very efficient. Pretty amazing considering it's against playoff defenses. I don't know the updated stats but 5 years ago this was a fact - 50 point playoff games. Jordan - 8 rest of the league combined - 13. I believe Kobe had 1 and Lebron 0. That's not simple volume shooting. That's an incredible talent.

No one really argues MJ isn’t the best playoff scorer ever because he clearly is.

Having said that the gap isn’t as big as you’d think between him and Lebron. MJ takes a tonne more shots than Lebron to get all those 40 and 50 point games. He does so very efficiently at that volume though.

Lebron still is more efficient at a lesser volume but that’s not really his game to take a load of shots. Hence why he’s only taken 30 fgas in the playoffs 7 times ( three were against warriors when his second option was mozgov in a 7 man rotation) despite having heaps of 40 point playoffs games.


Jordan has a lot of games with 30 and even 40 fga’s

[dhsilv2]

I also have to find this stat but I know it's true - 75 percentish of Kobe AND Lebron's 40+ point games have happened against losing teams whereas the majority of Jordan's came against winning teams (over .500). I'll have to figure that out unless someone beats me to it.

Just did a quick back of the napkin math, a bit of memory so could be fuzzy look at Lebron (less games). 50 were 500 or better teams 27 were losing teams. Kobe would take way longer, but there's no way in hell I'm off by more than 10 on my count, let alone have it completely flipped. So with lebron that's completely false.

[dhsilv2]

.646 is very efficient. And considering he did it what 180 times? That's amazing. Lebron's only what .02 higher with only 15 40 point games in comparison to Jordans 180 40 point games? And Kobe less efficient? Jordan clearly has the upper hand here. On top of this, Lebron's record is 5-10, Kobe 1-10, Jordans nearly 500. Very telling.

in the reg season lebron and iverson had a better record
lebron 78 win%
iverson 75 win%
jordan 70 win%
kobe 69 win%
wade 61 win%

When iverson is on top in that category, and Wade jordan on bottom... I know not to take that stat seriously. On top of that - a 70 to 78 percent win difference is so marginal that it's negligible. It's not mammoth like Jordan's 185 40 point games to Lebron's 15, for example. And that arbitrary stat makes sense, given the scrubs that jordan and Kobe had to play with during their highest scoring seasons. There was a reason they had to score so much.

Stats that don't fit your expectations or desire are the stats to look at. those that tell you what you want to hear, are the ones you should put aside as they didn't add any value.

[dhsilv2]

Regular season is meaningless.

That is idiotic to say the least. It gives us a bigger sample size, it has far more predictive value, etc etc etc. The playoffs are far less meaningful when doing data analysis. If the goal is to understand how a player plays or what their impact is, you have to look to teh bigger sample size. Otherwise you'll have to do some crazy amounts of absurd calculus to normalize the data and by then you've got god knows what...

[Xherdan 23]

If the goal is to understand how a player plays or what their impact is

I admire your patience but it's a bit futile.
You already know it's not his goal, that's why the data that contradicts his presupposition is being ignored here and why ridiculous methods are being used (lol at looking at high shooting games and ignoring efficient high scoring games when trying to evaluate volume scoring).

In this poster's previous incarnation the mantra was "LeBron can't shoot outside 3 feet". Since it's no longer a weakness in LeBron's game he had to get a bit more creative. Tried it with the old "not clutch" thread and got destroyed by BombSquad so he had to move the goal posts again with this brilliant thread and ignore whatever doesn't fit the narrative.

[dhsilv2]

If the goal is to understand how a player plays or what their impact is

I admire your patience but it's a bit futile.
You already know it's not his goal, that's why the data that contradicts his presupposition is being ignored here and why ridiculous methods are being used (lol at looking at high shooting games and ignoring efficient high scoring games when trying to evaluate volume scoring).

In this poster's previous incarnation the mantra was "LeBron can't shoot outside 3 feet". Since it's no longer a weakness in LeBron's game he had to get a bit more creative. Tried it with the old "not clutch" thread and got destroyed by BombSquad so he had to move the goal posts again with this brilliant thread and ignore whatever doesn't fit the narrative.

The goal is to make sure sanity is posted here, changing his mind is hopeless, likely. That said others read these boards. It's amazing how often a google search can find this board or another similar nba board. In a world where increasingly people search for facts that fit their expectations instead of simply looking for facts and then drawing conclusions, we must at least put some vigilance into making sure false information isn't supported or accepted. Of course at the end of the day, "arguments" or "debates" lead to cheer leaders not for what's right or who makes the best argument, but for those who people agreed with before they read the first thing. We all should make an effort to assume WE are wrong now and then. I'm certainly wrong enough here and elsewhere. Great posters have helped move some of my stances, not miles but inches and I'm better for it. Hopefully, not here, and not now, but over time people so locked into their agendas will slowly start to see the noise in their views.

If not, I at least made an effort, it wasn't hard. I'm watching netflix, drinking a beer (debating switching to scotch), and posting here so no real effort to throw in a simple response, and I like data diving when I don't know the answer.

[thekdog34]

Well that's a good debate.

Some guys rely on free throws more to generate high scoring games.

I think there's a case for arguing that being able to volume score without free throws is a valuable and very hard to stop skill.

You can try arguing that but I think you'll find it's just not true.
When filtering 40pt+ and under 10 FTA you get 14 games from MJ, 9 from LeBron, 6 for Kobe and 4 from AI.

Jordan
14 games
265/468
56 FG%
3.3 TOV/G

LeBron
9 games
155/266
58 FG%
2.5 TOV/G

Kobe
6 games
107/191
56 FG%
3.0 TOV/G

AI
4 games
77/145
53 FG%
2.5 TOV/G

So MJ is clearly on a different level as a scorer with or without free trows, AI doesn't belong in this discussion at all and this is really LeBron vs Kobe we're talking about.

The interesting thing is, when you look for 40+ games with 15 FTA or less, Kobe has 11 and LeBron only 12 so when you said this:

Some guys rely on free throws more to generate high scoring games.

I didn't expect to find out kobe is the one who benefits from it.

And also I don't agree with you that scoring without FT is valuable at all, I think it's bailing the defense out. Getting to the line is a skill, it puts the other team in foul trouble and prevents fast breaks.

When you don't get to the line it usually means you're not being aggressive enough and settling for jumpers instead.
That can be great if you take a lot of threes to negate the difficulty of the long distance shot with the extra point you're potentially making, but if you take mostly mid range shots you'll probably*** be less effective than someone who goes to the rim more often.

*** - Unless of course you're MJ or Dirk.

Hmm... I'm not sure how your first part proves that scoring without free throws isn't a valuable skill.

I don't agree that scoring without free throws means you're not being aggressive. Jordan and Hakeem were very aggressive. They were also very good at making difficult shots before double teams got there or before teams could foul.

Watching guys like harden or David Robinson struggle in the playoffs is what makes me think this is the case