Markelle Fultz Discussion III: For Fultz and going forward (see 2017 draft thread for trade discussion)

[sicknastydunker]

well, he did, looked horrible and is out for over 2 months with SORENESS. i wouldnt cry that loud, if he had an actual injury. players come back earlier from broken bones than fultz with muscle imbalance. its ridiculous.

scapular muscle imbalance is an injury though. the guy didnt have a full range of motion in his shoulder, it's cited time and time again that any overhead activity with the arm causes pain and discomfort, to the point where it feels dead and dull. it goes way beyond shoulder soreness but apparently you see what you want to see and believe what you want to believe.

you probably didn't know this but your shoulder is a pretty complex mechanism with several muscle groups working in conjunction to help you move your arm. when you lose your range of motion, especially in your shooting arm, you won't be an effective basketball player on the court. fultz played 4 games with this injury and couldn't shoot the ball and the team shut him down as a result. and the team came up with a rehabilitation plan that has kept him sidelined all this time, not fultz.

the only thing ridiculous about this situation is that the team didn't shut him down sooner and instead let fultz play injured

A scapular imbalance is not an injury. It can lead to an injury. But in and of itself, it is not an injury.

I actually have experience with this, as I actually have had a scapular imbalance before which eventually led to slight soreness which went away with quick physical therapy.

If you don't believe me though, take it from a Lakers team doctor:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2742212?fb_comment_id=1474754042578608_1474969885890357

Scapular imbalance is NOT an injury.

The only injury Fultz has been diagnosed by with anyone is "muscle soreness". That may or may not have been caused by the scapular imbalance, but that's the only injury Fultz was diagnosed with

[JojoSlimbiid]

Our resident physical therapist Celtic fans coming here to set us straight.

[Mik317]

i mean not every injury or body is the same so any diagnosis based off of "well I had it once" is bull. Nor is any diagnosis from some outside source (one that is a former and not current one iirc). You aren't him and they never got a chance to look at him...the only docs that matter are our **** ones and the various specialists he went to see during this **** tour.

I hate the FO but I am sorry, they wouldn't be able to get multiple doctors to lie for them, they aren't that good and it would have leaked by now.

He was hurt. No one knows how much or even why...but bottom line he was hurt. Perhaps they held him out for longer than needed but that is business as normal around here. Whether or not it would have kept you or your favorite player out is a moot point, it was enough to keep him out or at the very least enough for his jumper to look like complete ass and for him to forgo shooting beyond 10 ft. Regardless of how it happened, why it happened, when it happened...the point is that it happened. Hopefully, this last hurdle is shortlived and he hits the court for us soon...and then we can actually evaluate him instead of armchair psychology or therapy from afar.

Again I think many have allowed their already low preconceived notions about Fultz warp their reality to further prove them right. If he sucks and isn't any good, wouldn't you rather that just happen than for some weird conspiracy about him not being really hurt or not? I want you to notice who are the ones who think he was faking it....they tend to be the same ones who never liked him at all (or those who jump at every shadow lol ). Wonder why? If he's going to fail, let it happen naturally...then you can get your jimmies off. You don't need to create this weird scenario in which he is also a bad person too.

[JojoSlimbiid]

His FT form could be an improvement. I'd have to see his feet. He did this weird stuff with his toes and heels at Washington

[LongLiveHinkie]

i mean not every injury or body is the same so any diagnosis based off of "well I had it once" is bull. Nor is any diagnosis from some outside source (one that is a former and not current one iirc). You aren't him and they never got a chance to look at him...the only docs that matter are our **** ones and the various specialists he went to see during this **** tour.

I hate the FO but I am sorry, they wouldn't be able to get multiple doctors to lie for them, they aren't that good and it would have leaked by now.

He was hurt. No one knows how much or even why...but bottom line he was hurt. Perhaps they held him out for longer than needed but that is business as normal around here. Whether or not it would have kept you or your favorite player out is a moot point, it was enough to keep him out or at the very least enough for his jumper to look like complete ass and for him to forgo shooting beyond 10 ft. Regardless of how it happened, why it happened, when it happened...the point is that it happened. Hopefully, this last hurdle is shortlived and he hits the court for us soon...and then we can actually evaluate him instead of armchair psychology or therapy from afar.

Again I think many have allowed their already low preconceived notions about Fultz warp their reality to further prove them right. If he sucks and isn't any good, wouldn't you rather that just happen than for some weird conspiracy about him not being really hurt or not? I want you to notice who are the ones who think he was faking it....they tend to be the same ones who never liked him at all (or those who jump at every shadow lol ). Wonder why? If he's going to fail, let it happen naturally...then you can get your jimmies off. You don't need to create this weird scenario in which he is also a bad person too.

I don't think people want Fultz to fail per se. I think they want Colangelo to fail so they can stick their nose up in the air about the nepotism and unleash "I told you so" tweets and feel good about themselves. Fultz going wrong, would be a Colangelo failure, and deep down I think people really really want to see him fail. Whether they'll admit it or not.

I said it before, but it's no coincidence, the people who most question Fultz's injury situation are also the biggest Colangelo haters. The posters here it directly translates, and even outside of this board, the biggest skeptic of Fultz's injury is Spike Eskin and he's also the biggest Colangelo hater, because his entire persona is built around Sam Hinkie. The dude hung a banner of his face at the lottery party.

Most people typically believe a player when they say they're injured. Conspiracy theories about injuries are actually rare. But people went way overboard with the Fultz stuff, because where did the conspiracy theory tie all the way back to? Colangelo. The prevailing theory of those truthers was he made up the injury because they didn't want the pick to look bad, which is totally ridiculous. Literally one of the dumbest things I've ever heard regarding sports in my life.

But yeah, none of the injury stuff matters. It is what it is. Medical stuff doesn't have to make logical sense to you. You either deal with it or you don't. It's kinda like when you go to the store and you are looking to buy something you really need and you find it and you're like whoa. It cost $200??? Really? This little thing costs $200? That's way too much. But, it doesn't matter if you think it costs too much, why it costs that much. The fact is, it costs that much and you either buy it and get the thing you need, or you don't buy it and don't get what you need. You don't have to understand Fultz's injury situation, but it took that long. It doesn't matter how or why, it did. You can either get over it or keep whining about it. No real other options.

[Mik317]

I hate Colangelo, I am not the biggest fan of the trade, and I fear that he ruined our shot. However, you could tell me Fultz being bad would directly lead to him being fired on the spot asap and I'd still wouldn't wish for him to bust as hard as some have seemingly done. Nor will I constantly jump at the chance to concern troll at the moment of something bad either.

I would love to go back to dissing everything my gm does and complaining nonstop. It was easy. And it was fun in a insane type of way.... but I'll save that for when it actually happens and not before as I'd also like the scenario in which Fultz is exactly what this team needs and they start to mesh down the stretch and we have a solid basketball team with a future for once....instead of constantly looking for some random guy in next years draft to be that. Again that trade blows...but I am holding out hope that we either get that pick, its low so Boston misses out on a game changing big or Fultz is what we need so who gives a ****.....I like that more than most scenarios.

[Ericb5]

I hated the Colangelo hiring from the beginning, but have been largely happy with him since he has been here.

I thought Fultz was the third best player in the draft, but in the same tier with the first two, and therefore could/should have been the player that we would take first.

When the deal first started being reported I was initially terrified that we gave up too much, but once we learned that it was only one of our two extra lottery picks, I was relieved, and excited about the move.

Today I’m just as excited about him, and I can’t wait to see him play some games. Still don’t like Colangelo though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Simmons25]

Most people typically believe a player when they say they're injured. Conspiracy theories about injuries are actually rare. But people went way overboard with the Fultz stuff, because where did the conspiracy theory tie all the way back to? Colangelo. The prevailing theory of those truthers was he made up the injury because they didn't want the pick to look bad, which is totally ridiculous. Literally one of the dumbest things I've ever heard regarding sports in my life.

Yup. Especially when initially Colangelo said there was nothing wrong with Fultz as per 76ers medicos. If Colangelo really wanted to bail himself out of a bad pick in Fultz... he would have played the "injury card" up front when Fultz was struggling to shoot... instead he did the exact opposite and put the heat on himself.

Now suddenly people think Colangelo convinced an independent shoulder specialist to make up a fake injury... to take the heat off himself. It's so ridiculous that I seriously wonder how people can lack basic common sense.

[the_process]

well, he did, looked horrible and is out for over 2 months with SORENESS. i wouldnt cry that loud, if he had an actual injury. players come back earlier from broken bones than fultz with muscle imbalance. its ridiculous.

scapular muscle imbalance is an injury though. the guy didnt have a full range of motion in his shoulder, it's cited time and time again that any overhead activity with the arm causes pain and discomfort, to the point where it feels dead and dull. it goes way beyond shoulder soreness but apparently you see what you want to see and believe what you want to believe.

you probably didn't know this but your shoulder is a pretty complex mechanism with several muscle groups working in conjunction to help you move your arm. when you lose your range of motion, especially in your shooting arm, you won't be an effective basketball player on the court. fultz played 4 games with this injury and couldn't shoot the ball and the team shut him down as a result. and the team came up with a rehabilitation plan that has kept him sidelined all this time, not fultz.

the only thing ridiculous about this situation is that the team didn't shut him down sooner and instead let fultz play injured

A scapular imbalance is not an injury. It can lead to an injury. But in and of itself, it is not an injury.

I actually have experience with this, as I actually have had a scapular imbalance before which eventually led to slight soreness which went away with quick physical therapy.

If you don't believe me though, take it from a Lakers team doctor:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2742212?fb_comment_id=1474754042578608_1474969885890357

Scapular imbalance is NOT an injury.

The only injury Fultz has been diagnosed by with anyone is "muscle soreness". That may or may not have been caused by the scapular imbalance, but that's the only injury Fultz was diagnosed with

If we say Ainge is God and Boston is the center of the universe and you guys own every trade... will you be done? For the love of God, man.

And quoting Bleacher Report? How about a real health article:
https://orthoinfo.aaos.org/en/diseases--conditions/scapular-shoulder-blade-disorders

[Kolkmania]

his new free throw form is nothing like the one at UW. looks like he's shooting them flatfooted now, and a lower release point. i guess less moving parts the better, for at least the free throws.

I'm convinced that this is due to John Townsend/Sixers coaching staff, they did it to Ben Simmons, TLC and now Markelle Fultz. I really disagree with the "less moving parts the better" part, rhythm is more important imo.

[LordCovington33]

Most people typically believe a player when they say they're injured. Conspiracy theories about injuries are actually rare. But people went way overboard with the Fultz stuff, because where did the conspiracy theory tie all the way back to? Colangelo. The prevailing theory of those truthers was he made up the injury because they didn't want the pick to look bad, which is totally ridiculous. Literally one of the dumbest things I've ever heard regarding sports in my life.

Yup. Especially when initially Colangelo said there was nothing wrong with Fultz as per 76ers medicos. If Colangelo really wanted to bail himself out of a bad pick in Fultz... he would have played the "injury card" up front when Fultz was struggling to shoot... instead he did the exact opposite and put the heat on himself.

Now suddenly people think Colangelo convinced an independent shoulder specialist to make up a fake injury... to take the heat off himself. It's so ridiculous that I seriously wonder how people can lack basic common sense.

I can understand other fanbases coming on here to troll us, but the no-injury theory makes zero sense.

[Kolkmania]

I'm worried. Movement looks good, he shows some burst, he's at least confident enough to shoot in front of reporters, but I think there's a fundamental flaw.

In the summer Fultz (or someone close) decided that his shooting mechanics he used at UW needed an overhaul. Let's break his shot down in two parts, shooting from standstill and pulling up off the dribble.

Standstill
0:20

Read on Twitter

Can also see it in his free throws in the video the Sixers released themselves.

It's clear the set point is lowered drastically, which isn't a problem on itself, some of the best shooters in the league have this. However, this lower set point is normally combined with a one-motion shot. Which basically means that all the momentum of the entire body is transferred to the ball, especially from the lower body.

The best way to check if this is done correctly, from a timing standpoint, is to see the body position when the ball reaches his set point. In Fultz' case the knees are still bent, which means that the arms have to wait with flexing until the legs straighten and help to transfer the momentum. This causes a hitch and loss of momentum, to make up for that energy loss Fultz has to push the ball and therefore the awkward look.

Pull up

Read on Twitter

Now look his motion when pulling up. The set point is drastically raised, from his noes to above his head. Secondly, look at the body position when the ball reaches the set point. Fultz is completely loose from the ground and has reached the peak of his jump. Which is completely different than the standstill motion, when the knees were still bent. The pull up mechanics resemble more of a two-motion shot, which he actually used in college (however with a set point closer to his head).

Problem
One or the other isn't wrong, but it needs to be consistent. Playing in a competitive atmosphere and having two completely different type of shots is not going to work, you need muscle memory to fall back on. On top of that we can see that the one-motion shot from standstill needs massive work because the timing between the lower and upper body is off. If I'd make the call I would say that Fultz should revert back to his old mechanics, because that pull up jumper looks way more fluid, which makes sense since he's been doing that since he was a little kid.

For the guys who are going to say, it's just practice he fooling around. It might be, but it's consistent from what we saw earlier and even if you're fooling around you're using the same mechanics as you normally do. That his mechanics are all over the place is worrying to me and if he's implemented in the lineup I expect massive shooting troubles.

The worst part is that I don't trust our shooting coach/staff at all, this needs to be fixed in the summer with a proper one.

[LloydFree]

Dwayne Wade survived 15 seasons in the league without being able to shoot. The consensus said Fultz was Dwayne Wade like and as good as Kyrie. I'm not concerned about his shooting form. Fultz is a tough shot maker and that assist to turnover rate is Godlike.

[Kolkmania]

Dwayne Wade survived 15 seasons in the league without being able to shoot. The consensus said Fultz was Dwayne Wade like and as good as Kyrie. I'm not concerned about his shooting form. Fultz is a tough shot maker and that assist to turnover rate is Godlike.

Different times and context, we drafted Fultz because he had the ability to create his own shot and space the floor for Simmons and Embiid, if he can't do the latter than we're in serious trouble.
Fultz was indeed a tough shot maker, but that was with a different shot, yet to see if he can do that in the NBA (especially with new mechanics).

[James40]

Never hated the trade, I know the NBA isn’t the NFL but I believe if there is player you are sure of, you do what you have to do to get him, like with what the Eagles gave up to get Wentz. Then you hope the pick was right.

Was Fultz guaranteed to be there at 3? We’ll never know.

On the other side you have the Rams trading a fortune to get Goff at number 1 with Tennessee. That looked like crap not because of Goff, but because of Jeff Fisher and his coaching staff. Goff looks pretty good now with Fisher gone and so does Keenum in Minny after he got away from Fisher.

We’ll know by the next year or so how the Fultz trade worked out. I don’t think he has the pressure of a normal number 1 pick, we already have a superstar in Embiid, and a very good player in Simmons, plus Cov. If Fultz just scores the Sixers will be contenders.

An example would be the T Wolves, flip Towns for Embiid and the Wolves win 7-8 more games, even with our boy Wiggins. Embiid is such a dynamic player of both sides of the court he covers up others weaknesses, Towns plays defense like Okafor, ( well maybe not that bad) but close. If Fultz gives the Sixers what Wiggins gives the Wolves, this trade will make the Sixers a much better team.

[eyeatoma]

I'm worried. Movement looks good, he shows some burst, he's at least confident enough to shoot in front of reporters, but I think there's a fundamental flaw.

In the summer Fultz (or someone close) decided that his shooting mechanics he used at UW needed an overhaul. Let's break his shot down in two parts, shooting from standstill and pulling up off the dribble.

Standstill
0:20

Read on Twitter

Can also see it in his free throws in the video the Sixers released themselves.

It's clear the set point is lowered drastically, which isn't a problem on itself, some of the best shooters in the league have this. However, this lower set point is normally combined with a one-motion shot. Which basically means that all the momentum of the entire body is transferred to the ball, especially from the lower body.

The best way to check if this is done correctly, from a timing standpoint, is to see the body position when the ball reaches his set point. In Fultz' case the knees are still bent, which means that the arms have to wait with flexing until the legs straighten and help to transfer the momentum. This causes a hitch and loss of momentum, to make up for that energy loss Fultz has to push the ball and therefore the awkward look.

Pull up

Read on Twitter

Now look his motion when pulling up. The set point is drastically raised, from his noes to above his head. Secondly, look at the body position when the ball reaches the set point. Fultz is completely loose from the ground and has reached the peak of his jump. Which is completely different than the standstill motion, when the knees were still bent. The pull up mechanics resemble more of a two-motion shot, which he actually used in college (however with a set point closer to his head).

Problem
One or the other isn't wrong, but it needs to be consistent. Playing in a competitive atmosphere and having two completely different type of shots is not going to work, you need muscle memory to fall back on. On top of that we can see that the one-motion shot from standstill needs massive work because the timing between the lower and upper body is off. If I'd make the call I would say that Fultz should revert back to his old mechanics, because that pull up jumper looks way more fluid, which makes sense since he's been doing that since he was a little kid.

For the guys who are going to say, it's just practice he fooling around. It might be, but it's consistent from what we saw earlier and even if you're fooling around you're using the same mechanics as you normally do. That his mechanics are all over the place is worrying to me and if he's implemented in the lineup I expect massive shooting troubles.

The worst part is that I don't trust our shooting coach/staff at all, this needs to be fixed in the summer with a proper one.

Well that was depressing to read... Really hope he can reach his potential...


Also, what do you think about his free throw form?

Read on Twitter

[Kolkmania]

Well that was depressing to read... Really hope he can reach his potential...


Also, what do you think about his free throw form?

Read on Twitter

The angle makes it tough, it's at least a lot smoother than what he showed in pre-season and regular season. He starts the ball from his waist instead of his set point immediately, so there's more fluidity to the shot. It looks like the set point is a bit closer to his head as well.

The bad part imo is the lower body, I said it above as well, but there's a common theme with the free throw motions of the Sixers players. The guys who had a revamped shooting motion (Simmons, TLC and Fultz) all have their toes point to the rim, and in the case of Simmons and Fultz no bending off the knees at all.
I can't think of a different reason than coaching philosophy of John Townsend, which is probably "minimize as many moving parts as possible". Something I completely disagree with, because the lower body can provide force and therefore reducing the tension and force needed by the arms.

One funny thing I'm noticing now, is that Fultz head is tilting backwards. I think his right eye is dominant and with the squared position of the lower body he has to tilt his head to get his eye properly aligned.
Naturally Fultz had a turn in his feet during his shooting motion, dating back from high school. At 0:18 you can see that he's squared up (just like Simmons), which might feel unnatural for him and causes additional tension in his shoulders.

I'm not a specialist, but I would love an explanation for this lower body part (since it's a common theme). I've asked Bodner in a different topic, hopefully one of the media members will ask clarification at some point.

[LloydFree]

This is the perspective of an outsider who liked both Tatum and Fultz before the draft - I liked the trade for both and I still like it now.

You still like it now!!!??? Wow.

First of all Fultz likely there at three with no trade.
Ainge was honest when he said he would take Taytum at one.

Whoever goes 4-5 in June are better prospects than peak prospect Fultz. The guys going 2-3 are tiers above peak prospect Fultz.

Other than the Tatum at #1 part... this, pretty much

[Mrcrockpots]

Fultz is going to be great. Cannot wait for him to get on the court with some consistent minutes.

[Negrodamus]

his new free throw form is nothing like the one at UW. looks like he's shooting them flatfooted now, and a lower release point. i guess less moving parts the better, for at least the free throws.

I'm convinced that this is due to John Townsend/Sixers coaching staff, they did it to Ben Simmons, TLC and now Markelle Fultz. I really disagree with the "less moving parts the better" part, rhythm is more important imo.

There was a pretty good video trying to figure out the free throw situation back before the injury was announced. I’ll try to find it later but I think they were trying to get his feet to propel his FT shot rather than what he was doing, propelling before the wind up. So I wouldn’t be surprised if they are getting him used to that feel before turning it into one fluid motion. He has a slight Lonzo dip across his body too, which is interesting.