Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIV

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Here is an easy idea that does not involve trading John Wall:

Chris McCullough and the 2018 first round pick for Bobby Portis.

I would rather do this than trade for Boogie Cousins. Simple clean trade that would do nothing but add to the team chemistry and talent level.

Imagine having Portis and Oubre! Bobby Portis right now is the ideal stretch PF/C. His shooting is phenomenal. His rebounding is at least average if not above average.

Payitforward, how does Portis rate by the numbers? I think he might be just as good as Otto Porter.

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None of these types of solutions will work. The problem we keep running into is that Wall + Beal + Porter + Mahinmi alone will cost $107M in 2019-20. By then, the luxtax limit will probably be somewhere in the $125M-130M range. So the remaining 8 players on the roster can cost no more than $18-22M. Oubre and Portis alone will exceed that. And that doesn't even account for a competent 3rd guard and minimum salary filler for the other 5 guys on the roster.

Portis would be a one-year rental. You don't trade away a pick for a 1-year rental.

Nate, that idea above did not take into consideration 2019 or 2020. That's a short-term, this year idea

Portis this season turns this team into a 50 win team immediately and a serious playoff threat to get to even the NBA Finals. I believe he would be a more effective C than Gortat or Mahinmi and the guy has three point range.

Worry about contract problems next year. (Wall trades then)

The best thing the Wizards could do would be to up their playoff performances and thus increase the trade value of even people like Ian Mahinmi.

The Celtics got really far in the playoffs and then they traded Isaiah Thomas. The Wizards need to get a little bit better now to improve their trade chances later.

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[nate33]

How many times have wall played with another superstar? All star? All nba 1st? 2nd? 3rd? All nba 1st 2nd 3rd defensive player?

Name another top caliber player who hasn’t played with any of these and what successes have they had?

You are making my point for me. Wall has never played with an All-NBA player, and the given the trajectory we are on, HE NEVER WILL. That alone so make you consider making some changes.

[nate33]

Here is an easy idea that does not involve trading John Wall:

Chris McCullough and the 2018 first round pick for Bobby Portis.

I would rather do this than trade for Boogie Cousins. Simple clean trade that would do nothing but add to the team chemistry and talent level.

Imagine having Portis and Oubre! Bobby Portis right now is the ideal stretch PF/C. His shooting is phenomenal. His rebounding is at least average if not above average.

Payitforward, how does Portis rate by the numbers? I think he might be just as good as Otto Porter.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using RealGM mobile app

None of these types of solutions will work. The problem we keep running into is that Wall + Beal + Porter + Mahinmi alone will cost $107M in 2019-20. By then, the luxtax limit will probably be somewhere in the $125M-130M range. So the remaining 8 players on the roster can cost no more than $18-22M. Oubre and Portis alone will exceed that. And that doesn't even account for a competent 3rd guard and minimum salary filler for the other 5 guys on the roster.

Portis would be a one-year rental. You don't trade away a pick for a 1-year rental.

Nate, that idea above did not take into consideration 2019 or 2020. That's a short-term, this year idea

Portis this season turns this team into a 50 win team immediately and a serious playoff threat to get to even the NBA Finals. I believe he would be a more effective C than Gortat or Mahinmi and the guy has three point range.

Worry about contract problems next year. (Wall trades then)

The best thing the Wizards could do would be to up their playoff performances and thus increase the trade value of even people like Ian Mahinmi.

The Celtics got really far in the playoffs and then they traded Isaiah Thomas. The Wizards need to get a little bit better now to improve their trade chances later.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using RealGM mobile app

I get that you like Portis, and I don't disagree. But you don't trade a 1st round pick away for a one year rental and then "worry about contract problems next year". The means for addressing those contract problems will be sacrificing possibly multiple 1st round picks. That's the kind of thinking that put us in this position in the first place. C'mon, you are making me sound like payitforward now.

[deneem4]

How many times have wall played with another superstar? All star? All nba 1st? 2nd? 3rd? All nba 1st 2nd 3rd defensive player?

Name another top caliber player who hasn’t played with any of these and what successes have they had?

You are making my point for me. Wall has never played with an All-NBA player, and the given the trajectory we are on, HE NEVER WILL. That alone so make you consider making some changes.

So that means you trade away our 1 all nba player for hope to draft another one who may or may not turn out as good or better than in a few years?...

Who has this worked for in past nba history...
How many top talents has been traded in the past few years that’s actually have success to its previous team?

Boston doesn’t have the defense or depth
Toronto is Toronto

If it’s one time to have faith in our core it’s now

Wall isn’t the problem the froncourt is...and no matter who we have running point if we can score in the post or stop teams in the post winning is gonna be hard especially without wall who is one of the best post guard defenders

[deneem4]

Proof of john wall post defense
http://on.nba.com/2CP4iU1

[nate33]

Who has this worked for in past nba history...
How many top talents has been traded in the past few years that’s actually have success to its previous team?

Isaiah Thomas comes to mind. As does Paul George.

Wall isn’t the problem the froncourt is...and no matter who we have running point if we can score in the post or stop teams in the post winning is gonna be hard especially without wall who is one of the best post guard defenders

Nobody is saying Wall is "the problem". It's just a question of whether or not $40M a year could be better spent than on John Wall. Wall is a second tier star (top 20-25 player) being paid like he's an MVP candidate.

[deneem4]

Who has this worked for in past nba history...
How many top talents has been traded in the past few years that’s actually have success to its previous team?

Isaiah Thomas comes to mind. As does Paul George.

Wall isn’t the problem the froncourt is...and no matter who we have running point if we can score in the post or stop teams in the post winning is gonna be hard especially without wall who is one of the best post guard defenders

Nobody is saying Wall is "the problem". It's just a question of whether or not $40M a year could be better spent than on John Wall. Wall is a second tier star (top 20-25 player) being paid like he's an MVP candidate.

Isiah was traded for kyrie - that’s an upgrade for the celtics downgrade for the cavs who didn’t have a choice and also has a top 5 player in nba history as well as received a top 5 projected pick at he time

So how does that compare to any trade we can get from wall on either side?

Paul George was traded as a soon to be free agent who was reported to be leaving the pacers anyway...
Victor has been phenomenal but the pacers didn’t have a choice in trading George and wouldn’t have traded him if he was under contract, n if he was it wouldn’t have been for that package...

What’s our record with wall?
16-9
Without
5-6

[nate33]

16-10 with Wall. Not 16-9. And 15 games were at home and only 10 on the road. And that 5-6 record without Wall incorporated 9 road games and just 2 home games. It included a 1-point loss, a 3-point loss, and two 5-point losses. I'm fairly certain we could have won at least one more game, if not two, if we had a real PG like Collision starting, instead of Frazier, and an even home/road split.

So figure we'd have been at least 6-5 with Collison, if not 7-4. That projects to either 45 or 52 wins in a season. That's what we did last year with Wall.

No point in arguing further. You seem to cavalierly ignore the $200M price tag that comes attached to Wall. I don't.

[Dat2U]

Wall for Collison? What in the hell is this board smoking? The core of our roster is 27, 24, 24, 22. Were cusp of contender status and arguably one role playing piece away from taking down LeBron in the East.

How do we get that role player when we're capped out and all future transactions will be made with an eye toward shedding salary instead of adding it? And we're racing the clock as Gortat declines. This team can't even win 50 games. How can they be expected to win the East?

Oh, and I'm trading Wall and his $200M in future salary commitment for Collison and his $20M in future salary commitment (plus a pick). Let's not forget that minor point.

A. Golden State added their final piece to their 14-15 championship squad via 2nd rd pick Draymond Green in 2012. Talent wise they were similar to where we are now. It should be obvious this piece were missing doesnt have to be a big time free agent or high draft pick.

B. Gortat has already declined where it matters the most. Defensively. He was always a step slow with his rotations for the most part. Now, like Markieff a great deal of the time, Marcin doesn't even make the effort.

C. The problem with the roster is the $34 million annually tied up in the C position this season and next.

D. This is where the use and interpretation of advanced numbers troubles me. Obviously its possible for a lesser player to outplay a more talented guy over a period of time but Collison is journeyman having a career year and Wall is a franchise building block boucing back from injury after a typical slow start. There's a significant difference from how teams would defend a guy like Collison and a Wall. When Wall is engaged, he puts pressure on both sides of the ball that Collison could never do.

Getting a mid-first rounder is laughable incentive. We become 40-42 win team. What does that accomplish? Creating financial flexibility? With Porter, Beal and Oubre's impending deal, we won't have cap space for years to come, Wall or not.

[Shanghai Kid]

16-10 with Wall. Not 16-9. And 15 games were at home and only 10 on the road. And that 5-6 record without Wall incorporated 9 road games and just 2 home games. It included a 1-point loss, a 3-point loss, and two 5-point losses. I'm fairly certain we could have won at least one more game, if not two, if we had a real PG like Collision starting, instead of Frazier, and an even home/road split.

So figure we'd have been at least 6-5 with Collison, if not 7-4. That projects to either 45 or 52 wins in a season. That's what we did last year with Wall.

No point in arguing further. You seem to cavalierly ignore the $200M price tag that comes attached to Wall. I don't.

We actually got decent point guard play out of Frazier/Sato with Wall out. The difference is Wall pushes the pace and makes our offense go and gets other guys easy shots.

Does the team even beat Atlanta in the first round of the playoffs without Wall averaging 30/10 on 60% TS? Those aren't second tier numbers, in game 6 he closed out the Hawks with 42 points and 19 points in the 4th quarter. Also, it was clear that both Otto and Beal suffer in their efficiency without Wall.

It just seems like people are jumping the gun here. The Wiz will likely win 50 games this year and have a chance to get to the ECF. Why break up the core now?

I honestly fear that some people on this board who are into advanced stats may actually think that "Otto Porter makes this team go and is our best player."

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

16-10 with Wall. Not 16-9. And 15 games were at home and only 10 on the road. And that 5-6 record without Wall incorporated 9 road games and just 2 home games. It included a 1-point loss, a 3-point loss, and two 5-point losses. I'm fairly certain we could have won at least one more game, if not two, if we had a real PG like Collision starting, instead of Frazier, and an even home/road split.

So figure we'd have been at least 6-5 with Collison, if not 7-4. That projects to either 45 or 52 wins in a season. That's what we did last year with Wall.

No point in arguing further. You seem to cavalierly ignore the $200M price tag that comes attached to Wall. I don't.

We actually got decent point guard play out of Frazier/Sato with Wall out. The difference is Wall pushes the pace and makes our offense go and gets other guys easy shots.

Does the team even beat Atlanta in the first round of the playoffs without Wall averaging 30/10 on 60% TS? Those aren't second tier numbers, in game 6 he closed out the Hawks with 42 points and 19 points in the 4th quarter. Also, it was clear that both Otto and Beal suffer in their efficiency without Wall.

It just seems like people are jumping the gun here. The Wiz will likely win 50 games this year and have a chance to get to the ECF. Why break up the core now?

I honestly fear that some people on this board who are into advanced stats may actually think that "Otto Porter makes this team go and is our best player."

Fear not. I don't think there's any real possibility the Wizards trade any of Wall, Beal, Porter, or Oubre.

We're just suggesting stuff...

I WOULD make a move after this season if it would yield Trae Young. Possibly throw Bagley or Ayton in there as well. This is a MONSTER draft.

[payitforward]

Hey, I step away for a few hours, & all of a sudden everyone is having fun!

Should we trade Wall or not? Well, absolutely anybody should be available to trade, it's just a question of what you get back.

This team is end-capped; there is no way this generation of the Wizards can acquire players to get better, so unless you believe that the team as constituted right now is a title contender how can you think it will be in the future? & even if you believe that...

...The core of our roster is 27, 24, 24, 22. We're cusp of contender status and arguably one role playing piece away from taking down LeBron in the East

...how do we keep that core together?

The season after next we'll have $107.6m going to 4 players. Assuming the tax is at $125m, that gives us $17.5m to pay the other 11 players on the team.

Impossible, of course -- yet it doesn't even fully describe the real scope of the problem. That year, we'll likely have to have given Oubre his new contract -- ditto Sato if he continues to work out.

& how do we pay for that other quality role player? I guess if w/ our #20-23 R1 pick next June we were to draft someone with the immediate impact of Kyle Kuzma that would qualify. But, that doesn't happen very often.

So, whatever this generation of the Wizards is going to do, it better happen this season -- or next season at the latest.

[payitforward]

16-10 with Wall. Not 16-9. And 15 games were at home and only 10 on the road. And that 5-6 record without Wall incorporated 9 road games and just 2 home games. It included a 1-point loss, a 3-point loss, and two 5-point losses. I'm fairly certain we could have won at least one more game, if not two, if we had a real PG like Collision starting, instead of Frazier, and an even home/road split.

So figure we'd have been at least 6-5 with Collison, if not 7-4. That projects to either 45 or 52 wins in a season. That's what we did last year with Wall.

No point in arguing further. You seem to cavalierly ignore the $200M price tag that comes attached to Wall. I don't.

We actually got decent point guard play out of Frazier/Sato with Wall out. The difference is Wall pushes the pace and makes our offense go and gets other guys easy shots.

Does the team even beat Atlanta in the first round of the playoffs without Wall averaging 30/10 on 60% TS? Those aren't second tier numbers, in game 6 he closed out the Hawks with 42 points and 19 points in the 4th quarter. Also, it was clear that both Otto and Beal suffer in their efficiency without Wall.

It just seems like people are jumping the gun here. The Wiz will likely win 50 games this year and have a chance to get to the ECF. Why break up the core now?

I honestly fear that some people on this board who are into advanced stats may actually think that "Otto Porter makes this team go and is our best player."

Oh sure. The right way to understand what's what is to find a guy's finest moments, & then substitute those moments for the whole picture of his play. That way you have a hero. We all want heroes. Heroes mean everything.

Oh, & there is certainly no reason for you, or anyone, to look at the salary structure & what we're facing. What does money have to do with our hero John Wall?

On top of which, wow, we might "win 50 games this year and have a chance to get to the ECF." Gee, that's amazing. Has any team ever done anything quite that great? I mean, you know, if we do it -- which we haven't yet.

There are 30 teams in the NBA. Right now, we have the 8th best record out of 30. That puts just outside the top 25% of NBA teams. Last year 8 teams had better records than ours. Beats where we were 5-7 years ago, for sure! But, it's not really such a big achievement all the same.

Now, in fact, our FO won't trade John Wall. We all know that. So you don't have to worry. But, for that reason & others, we've more or less peaked. You're right that we might "have a chance to get to the ECF." A chance to do that. Are we a championship contender? No.

[Shanghai Kid]

16-10 with Wall. Not 16-9. And 15 games were at home and only 10 on the road. And that 5-6 record without Wall incorporated 9 road games and just 2 home games. It included a 1-point loss, a 3-point loss, and two 5-point losses. I'm fairly certain we could have won at least one more game, if not two, if we had a real PG like Collision starting, instead of Frazier, and an even home/road split.

So figure we'd have been at least 6-5 with Collison, if not 7-4. That projects to either 45 or 52 wins in a season. That's what we did last year with Wall.

No point in arguing further. You seem to cavalierly ignore the $200M price tag that comes attached to Wall. I don't.

We actually got decent point guard play out of Frazier/Sato with Wall out. The difference is Wall pushes the pace and makes our offense go and gets other guys easy shots.

Does the team even beat Atlanta in the first round of the playoffs without Wall averaging 30/10 on 60% TS? Those aren't second tier numbers, in game 6 he closed out the Hawks with 42 points and 19 points in the 4th quarter. Also, it was clear that both Otto and Beal suffer in their efficiency without Wall.

It just seems like people are jumping the gun here. The Wiz will likely win 50 games this year and have a chance to get to the ECF. Why break up the core now?

I honestly fear that some people on this board who are into advanced stats may actually think that "Otto Porter makes this team go and is our best player."

Oh sure. The right way to understand what's what is to find a guy's finest moments, & then substitute those moments for the whole picture of his play. That way you have a hero. We all want heroes. Heroes mean everything.

Oh, & there is certainly no reason for you, or anyone, to look at the salary structure & what we're facing. What does money have to do with our hero John Wall?

On top of which, wow, we might "win 50 games this year and have a chance to get to the ECF." Gee, that's amazing. Has any team ever done anything quite that great? I mean, you know, if we do it -- which we haven't yet.

There are 30 teams in the NBA. Right now, we have the 8th best record out of 30. That puts just outside the top 25% of NBA teams. Last year 8 teams had better records than ours. Beats where we were 5-7 years ago, for sure! But, it's not really such a big achievement all the same.

Now, in fact, our FO won't trade John Wall. We all know that. So you don't have to worry. But, for that reason & others, we've more or less peaked. You're right that we might "have a chance to get to the ECF." A chance to do that. Are we a championship contender? No.

If it's a matter of just strictly not being financially feasible to keep our core players together, I understand. I don't buy that trading Wall would be in pursuit of becoming closer to being a championship contender. I've seen nothing in this thread to suggest that. I am all for trading Wall if it does open the door for us to be a contender.

But yes, I am happy in the meantime to win 50 games and be a threat in the playoffs. I guess I don't actually think this team has peaked yet and I'm also a little bit higher on what Wall does for the team then others are. Fair enough.

[NatP4]

Our absolute best realistic trade scenario is moving Morris for an impact combo scoring guard IMO.

[nate33]

Our absolute best realistic trade scenario is moving Morris for an impact combo scoring guard IMO.

Perhaps. Though I'm not sure how much a third guard will help in the playoffs when Wall and Beal are likely to play 42 minutes a game.

Also, lazy, disinterested Morris doesn't typically show up in the playoffs. In the playoffs, we get an active and motivated Morris. And that guy is pretty decent and can cause matchup problems that prevent other teams from going small. Having that guy for 20 minutes a game might be better than a combo guard for 8-10 minutes a game.

[payitforward]

Our absolute best realistic trade scenario is moving Morris for an impact combo scoring guard IMO.

Great idea. Come up w/ some suggestions of who that might be...?

[Ruzious]

16-10 with Wall. Not 16-9. And 15 games were at home and only 10 on the road. And that 5-6 record without Wall incorporated 9 road games and just 2 home games. It included a 1-point loss, a 3-point loss, and two 5-point losses. I'm fairly certain we could have won at least one more game, if not two, if we had a real PG like Collision starting, instead of Frazier, and an even home/road split.

So figure we'd have been at least 6-5 with Collison, if not 7-4. That projects to either 45 or 52 wins in a season. That's what we did last year with Wall.

No point in arguing further. You seem to cavalierly ignore the $200M price tag that comes attached to Wall. I don't.

We actually got decent point guard play out of Frazier/Sato with Wall out. The difference is Wall pushes the pace and makes our offense go and gets other guys easy shots.

Does the team even beat Atlanta in the first round of the playoffs without Wall averaging 30/10 on 60% TS? Those aren't second tier numbers, in game 6 he closed out the Hawks with 42 points and 19 points in the 4th quarter. Also, it was clear that both Otto and Beal suffer in their efficiency without Wall.

It just seems like people are jumping the gun here. The Wiz will likely win 50 games this year and have a chance to get to the ECF. Why break up the core now?

I honestly fear that some people on this board who are into advanced stats may actually think that "Otto Porter makes this team go and is our best player."

Fear not. I don't thinks there's any real possibility the Wizards trade any of Wall, Beal, Porter, or Oubre.

We're just suggesting stuff...

I WOULD make a move if after this season if it would yield Trae Young. Possibly throw Bagley or Ayton in there as well. This is a MONSTER draft.

I think CCJ is on the right track - If we trade Wall, we almost have to trade him for a player like Trae Young (and 1 year contracts) - if for no other than PR purposes. It doesn't hurt that Young's on his way to being the first player to ever lead the NCAA in both scoring and assists. To start the season, I don't think anyone had Young as a first round pick, but now he is looking like a Steph Curry clone. He could last till the 4th pick (behind Bagley, Ayton, and Bomba), so is there a way to get the 4th pick?

[pcbothwel]

Our absolute best realistic trade scenario is moving Morris for an impact combo scoring guard IMO.

Great idea. Come up w/ some suggestions of who that might be...?

I have to agree with Nate above. A focused Morris in the playoffs is a positive asset. A focused Morris playing the 5 in a small lineup could win us a game or two.
Again, the issue with any trade this year is about threading the needle. If we trade Morris, do we jeopardize playoff success for cap/tax relief?
Or do we add to our financial commitments and jeopardize hurting us in the following years?
If its a lateral move for guard with similar contract, does that take minutes away from Sato?
Do we now have no small ball center?
All of these concern me with a trade.

I spend the next month working Jason Smith in the lineup. Tell him: "Play with energy on D at the 5, Run the court to get easy buckets, and shoot 3's... You do not post up or create."
If he gets hot then maybe we can dump him with our 2nd.

[payitforward]

We actually got decent point guard play out of Frazier/Sato with Wall out. The difference is Wall pushes the pace and makes our offense go and gets other guys easy shots.

Does the team even beat Atlanta in the first round of the playoffs without Wall averaging 30/10 on 60% TS? Those aren't second tier numbers, in game 6 he closed out the Hawks with 42 points and 19 points in the 4th quarter. Also, it was clear that both Otto and Beal suffer in their efficiency without Wall.

It just seems like people are jumping the gun here. The Wiz will likely win 50 games this year and have a chance to get to the ECF. Why break up the core now?

I honestly fear that some people on this board who are into advanced stats may actually think that "Otto Porter makes this team go and is our best player."

Oh sure. The right way to understand what's what is to find a guy's finest moments, & then substitute those moments for the whole picture of his play. That way you have a hero. We all want heroes. Heroes mean everything.

Oh, & there is certainly no reason for you, or anyone, to look at the salary structure & what we're facing. What does money have to do with our hero John Wall?

On top of which, wow, we might "win 50 games this year and have a chance to get to the ECF." Gee, that's amazing. Has any team ever done anything quite that great? I mean, you know, if we do it -- which we haven't yet.

There are 30 teams in the NBA. Right now, we have the 8th best record out of 30. That puts just outside the top 25% of NBA teams. Last year 8 teams had better records than ours. Beats where we were 5-7 years ago, for sure! But, it's not really such a big achievement all the same.

Now, in fact, our FO won't trade John Wall. We all know that. So you don't have to worry. But, for that reason & others, we've more or less peaked. You're right that we might "have a chance to get to the ECF." A chance to do that. Are we a championship contender? No.

If it's a matter of just strictly not being financially feasible to keep our core players together, I understand. I don't buy that trading Wall would be in pursuit of becoming closer to being a championship contender. I've seen nothing in this thread to suggest that. I am all for trading Wall if it does open the door for us to be a contender.

But yes, I am happy in the meantime to win 50 games and be a threat in the playoffs. I guess I don't actually think this team has peaked yet and I'm also a little bit higher on what Wall does for the team then others are. Fair enough.

Well, first off -- apologies for the sarcastic tone of my post. It's not like you *created* this salary mess, so why would I take my frustration out on you?

Take a look at http://www.basketballinsiders.com/washington-wizards-team-salary/ to understand what we're facing salary-wise.

Has this generation of the Wizards peaked? If you mean the players on the team, then you are right -- it hasn't. Porter & Beal are 24; they might get a bit better before they hit their peaks. Oubre is only 22 & clearly still growing as a player. Satoransky isn't going to become a better basketball player, but we are watching him become a better NBA player.

If we had our R1 player from 2016, our R1 player from 2017, & especially if we had 2 players from high in R2 in those same years (say the 2 guys GS got with extra picks they bought: McCaw & Bell), & even more especially if we weren't burdened w/ Mahinmi's ridiculous contract -- why, we'd be in great shape.

Instead of Mahinmi, Morris, Smith & McCullough we'd have McCaw, Bell, Denzel Valentine (whom most of us targeted at our spot in '16), & Jarrett Allen (whom the Nets took w/ our pick this year). Aside from being better players already, those are also tradable assets that are increasing in value! Not to mention that we'd be paying @ $27m less in salaries this year (under the cap!), have no problems for next year, & have lots of ways to maneuver for the year when Wall's nose-bleed extension kicks in.

& that's just looking at the last 2 years of bonehead moves by our FO. Go back further, & it's easy to see the extraordinary opportunity we had to turn the Wizards into the best team in the East & maybe in the league.