Knicks-Heat PG Thread

[PeoplesChamp]

I hate that unicorn ****. Leave it up to KD’s bytchasd to come up with that and have it stick.

[thebuzzardman]

You're always at the edge of some extreme. Step away and walk towards middle ground

What, by saying KP is an average defender on the perimeter and "ok" inside, if you combine the shot blocking/shot altering aspects of his inside play off the fact he'll get bodied by big C's?

Sounds pretty middle of the road to me.

I was talking about taking it to the extreme in regards to what I was saying. I didn't say his overall defense sucks in general, I was pointing out specific situations when it's been poor. When you say inside defense, your including his coming over to help, whereas I wasn't talking about that. I already said he's an excellent help defender when it comes to weakside shot blocking. Where I see him being a poor defender is in 1 on 1 coverage against legit centers. He gets overpowered, gives up deep position, is foul prone, etc. Where I also see him being poor is on recovery to the outside when the ball gets swung around by the other team. Yes a part of that is scheme but the scheme is designed to have him in position to rotate on both the inside and the outside, almost all teams have this designed scheme. Porzingis just happens to be really slow and/or lazy when it comes to coming out to contest an outside shot because he prefers much more to stay around the paint. His pick and roll defense is also not that good, he often drops back way too deep and allows guys to shoot right over the top of him and if he does play them tighter he gets beat off the dribble. These are all areas where he could improve over the years.

Fair enough. Still not sure I agree on the perimeter stuff totally (Jack getting beat a lot is hard to isolate away from KP) but the other stuff is basically related to his scouting report coming in. Which I think he's gotten better at, but still needs work.

[OpiumDose]

Here's some fun thoughts that sort of middle ground the KP sucks/is good/is franchise/is not idea.

KP is good but he's not consistently good at anything offensively and it creates a number of challenges for any team and especially a mid-low talent team like the Knicks.

"On KP"
Unicorn in the making, nailing jumpers and 3's, so he spreads the floor yet is still effective inside. So now you can play Kanter or any other low skillish P&R big who rebounds with him as the offense is balanced by having a 7'3" guy playing almost like a 6'7" stretch 4. Height means shot blocking on defense is added bonus over other stretch 4's.
This version of KP also still has the energy to effectively post up and actually do something with it, so spread the floor role players like McD etc look better.

"Off KP"
Can't hit 3's for sh*t. Bad enough to let teams not guard him and they'll live with the odds. Mid range jumper is off. Forces him to be a post player, which at "best of off KP" he's not that effective at and immediately puts him in the same area as the lower skilled bigs (Kanter/KOQ). Truly off KP winds up in the post and is pretty much completely ineffective, wrecking sets with lazy positioning and bad shots, which just compounds the issue.

When KP is "on" (which so far in his career is first 30 games of a season) he's borderline "franchise" but not totally because he lacks enough one on one moves. But he's damn close. He's like 1b. But when KP tails off due to injuries and fatigue (3 for 3 in years so far) he drags down the entire team, especially this year as focal point, because he becomes a tall guy out there with a lot of touches who isn't really great at anything - on offense.

Generally his defense will hold up a shot altering presence and a decent enough man to man defender but when "Off KP" is really present, even his defense disappears for stretches of games.

What? As bad as KP has been lately, there has never been even a moment where opposing teams have decided not to guard him (on and off the ball) - he has been tightly guarded in every single game this season And as bad as he is right now teams will never just take their chances and start leave him open - it's not going to happen. Even when he is "off" he still stretches the defenses with his gravity on the offensive side of the court. The problem here is the fact that Knicks are pretty much clueless on how to consistently make use of it - that's part coaching and part lack of talent. Also I don't really correlation between him being "off" and him playing more in the post. He has been "off" for a while, but he still shoots threes (3.8 per game in last 10) and long twos.

[thebuzzardman]

I hate that unicorn ****. Leave it up to KD’s bytchasd to come up with that and have it stick.

I wonder if KP "sock puppeted" his unicorn remark on social media

[Jeff Van Gully]

The sooner we fall out of playoff contention, maybe the better. There were some nice moments but chasing the playoffs was probably fools gold. Trade the vets, play the kids, try to pick up some future picks even if we have to take on some contracts (pending the contract)

Get on with a youth movement

while we were winning early, it made sense to incubate the youth among vets. but if we continue to slip, might as well give them all the keys and see what they figure out for themselves. the vet incubation only makes sense if the vets are successful. lee is fine. beasley's role is fine. jack and lance can come up off them minutes. call up burke.

until KO gets traded that still mean billy on that bench. if lee gets traded, then all the young guards can get PT.

[ChaosHamster]

KP needs to transform into this:

Bad/Angry unicron.

[thebuzzardman]

Here's some fun thoughts that sort of middle ground the KP sucks/is good/is franchise/is not idea.

KP is good but he's not consistently good at anything offensively and it creates a number of challenges for any team and especially a mid-low talent team like the Knicks.

"On KP"
Unicorn in the making, nailing jumpers and 3's, so he spreads the floor yet is still effective inside. So now you can play Kanter or any other low skillish P&R big who rebounds with him as the offense is balanced by having a 7'3" guy playing almost like a 6'7" stretch 4. Height means shot blocking on defense is added bonus over other stretch 4's.
This version of KP also still has the energy to effectively post up and actually do something with it, so spread the floor role players like McD etc look better.

"Off KP"
Can't hit 3's for sh*t. Bad enough to let teams not guard him and they'll live with the odds. Mid range jumper is off. Forces him to be a post player, which at "best of off KP" he's not that effective at and immediately puts him in the same area as the lower skilled bigs (Kanter/KOQ). Truly off KP winds up in the post and is pretty much completely ineffective, wrecking sets with lazy positioning and bad shots, which just compounds the issue.

When KP is "on" (which so far in his career is first 30 games of a season) he's borderline "franchise" but not totally because he lacks enough one on one moves. But he's damn close. He's like 1b. But when KP tails off due to injuries and fatigue (3 for 3 in years so far) he drags down the entire team, especially this year as focal point, because he becomes a tall guy out there with a lot of touches who isn't really great at anything - on offense.

Generally his defense will hold up a shot altering presence and a decent enough man to man defender but when "Off KP" is really present, even his defense disappears for stretches of games.

What? As bad as KP has been lately, there has never been even a moment where opposing teams have decided not to guard him (on and off the ball) - he has been tightly guarded in every single game this season And as bad as he is right now teams will never just take their chances and start leave him open - it's not going to happen. Even when he is "off" he still stretches the defenses with his gravity on the offensive side of the court. The problem here is the fact that Knicks are pretty much clueless on how to consistently make use of it - that's part coaching and part lack of talent. Also I don't really correlation between him being "off" and him playing more in the post. He has been "off" for a while, but he still shoots threes (3.8 per game in last 10) and long twos.

I was going more for how when he's off it throws the team off. Because on KP brings a multi-tool skill set that brings different looks, but when he's off, he really lacks something that he reliably can fall back on and it really brings the play down in a hurry. Sort of saying KP's off game is worse than other top players off games.

He still gets covered, never said he didn't - other than I swear I see teams concede him the 3

I've seen the coaching staff try enough plays where he's the decoy. That's fine - not because KP is playing bad, just trying to utilize the defense overplaying him. But the sets still aren't all that great, but part of that is back to KP. Other than the obvious - get this guy moving more in the 12-18 foot range, what do you do with KP when he's off? He jumper is off, his post play is weak - what does the coach do? P&R, I say, but it does limit options.

[thebuzzardman]

KP needs to transform into this:

Bad/Angry unicron.

He needs an X-Man\Oakley\Mase type sidekick to scare the **** out of guys who trying to push KP around.

[HEZI]

What, by saying KP is an average defender on the perimeter and "ok" inside, if you combine the shot blocking/shot altering aspects of his inside play off the fact he'll get bodied by big C's?

Sounds pretty middle of the road to me.

I was talking about taking it to the extreme in regards to what I was saying. I didn't say his overall defense sucks in general, I was pointing out specific situations when it's been poor. When you say inside defense, your including his coming over to help, whereas I wasn't talking about that. I already said he's an excellent help defender when it comes to weakside shot blocking. Where I see him being a poor defender is in 1 on 1 coverage against legit centers. He gets overpowered, gives up deep position, is foul prone, etc. Where I also see him being poor is on recovery to the outside when the ball gets swung around by the other team. Yes a part of that is scheme but the scheme is designed to have him in position to rotate on both the inside and the outside, almost all teams have this designed scheme. Porzingis just happens to be really slow and/or lazy when it comes to coming out to contest an outside shot because he prefers much more to stay around the paint. His pick and roll defense is also not that good, he often drops back way too deep and allows guys to shoot right over the top of him and if he does play them tighter he gets beat off the dribble. These are all areas where he could improve over the years.

Fair enough. Still not sure I agree on the perimeter stuff totally (Jack getting beat a lot is hard to isolate away from KP) but the other stuff is basically related to his scouting report coming in. Which I think he's gotten better at, but still needs work.

Lets not get started on Jack, that's a whole different topic and it gives me headaches just thinking about it. But you can't deny that Jack is also the reason that Kanter gets put in the position he gets put into also. Jack is the reason that Kanter almost always is left playing 1 on 2.

[thebuzzardman]

I was talking about taking it to the extreme in regards to what I was saying. I didn't say his overall defense sucks in general, I was pointing out specific situations when it's been poor. When you say inside defense, your including his coming over to help, whereas I wasn't talking about that. I already said he's an excellent help defender when it comes to weakside shot blocking. Where I see him being a poor defender is in 1 on 1 coverage against legit centers. He gets overpowered, gives up deep position, is foul prone, etc. Where I also see him being poor is on recovery to the outside when the ball gets swung around by the other team. Yes a part of that is scheme but the scheme is designed to have him in position to rotate on both the inside and the outside, almost all teams have this designed scheme. Porzingis just happens to be really slow and/or lazy when it comes to coming out to contest an outside shot because he prefers much more to stay around the paint. His pick and roll defense is also not that good, he often drops back way too deep and allows guys to shoot right over the top of him and if he does play them tighter he gets beat off the dribble. These are all areas where he could improve over the years.

Fair enough. Still not sure I agree on the perimeter stuff totally (Jack getting beat a lot is hard to isolate away from KP) but the other stuff is basically related to his scouting report coming in. Which I think he's gotten better at, but still needs work.

Lets not get started on Jack, that's a whole different topic and it gives me headaches just thinking about it. But you can't deny that Jack is also the reason that Kanter gets put in the position he gets put into also. Jack is the reason that Kanter almost always is left playing 1 on 2.

Kanter has certain defensive awareness issues but Jack compounds the crap out of them.

Starting Frank makes so much sense. But Jeff has to treat Jack like he's Wall or Paul. He's a backup. Frank is a backup. Play the young backup who plays better defense.

I mean, LFT gets the nod for "defense"
Even that idea is sort of dumb. LFT can backup the 3 and the 4. Why not start the pure 3 in McDermott and then you can mix match the 3/4 bench guys into either KP's or McD's slot?

[Bill Pidto]

Stop typing so many words about kids playing a game. Release yourselves from the fake burden.

[HEZI]

Fair enough. Still not sure I agree on the perimeter stuff totally (Jack getting beat a lot is hard to isolate away from KP) but the other stuff is basically related to his scouting report coming in. Which I think he's gotten better at, but still needs work.

Lets not get started on Jack, that's a whole different topic and it gives me headaches just thinking about it. But you can't deny that Jack is also the reason that Kanter gets put in the position he gets put into also. Jack is the reason that Kanter almost always is left playing 1 on 2.

Kanter has certain defensive awareness issues but Jack compounds the crap out of them.

Starting Frank makes so much sense. But Jeff has to treat Jack like he's Wall or Paul. He's a backup. Frank is a backup. Play the young backup who plays better defense.

I mean, LFT gets the nod for "defense"
Even that idea is sort of dumb. LFT can backup the 3 and the 4. Why not start the pure 3 in McDermott and then you can mix match the 3/4 bench guys into either KP's or McD's slot?

The entire coaching staff can go as far as I'm concerned. Jeff, Rambis, Eisley, Gaines, Sichting, get rid of all of them

Keep Dave Bliss though, he's alright

[CharlesOakley]

I don't understand why KP cannot seal anyone. There were so many times where we got a switch but couldn't get KP the ball because he lets the defender front him and the help splits behind. Our offensive has become - try and fail to get KP the ball inside of 25 feet then give it to Beasley with 7 seconds left.

[FKF]

Stop typing so many words about kids playing a game. Release yourselves from the fake burden.

I feel your pain.

[thebuzzardman]

Stop typing so many words about kids playing a game. Release yourselves from the fake burden.

[HarthorneWingo]

KP is back to having trouble posting up players 6-8 inches smaller than him. I don't understand how he either can't keep the player on his hip or get the foul call. Though the refs are really letting players maul him so it's not all his fault.

I expect KP to probably end up at around 20-22 ppg by the end of the year. That's still steady improvement from his rookie year. I'm not concerned though he clearly has work to do. No more summers in Latvia.

Simple answer: Fatigue.

He actually really is tired.

Sad but true.

I wouldn't discount (not saying that you are) the real possibility that the mental stress of carrying the team in his first year of being "the face of the franchise" has a significant contributing effect. Stress does that. I don't think it's really a big deal bc I think he'll learn to deal with it (and I expect better players around him as time passes).

Maybe what he needs to do is, dare I say it, ...

Spoiler:

[HarthorneWingo]

KP needs to transform into this:

Bad/Angry unicron.

He needs an X-Man\Oakley\Mase type sidekick to scare the **** out of guys who trying to push KP around.

We should transfuse KP with Oakley's blood.

[Fury]

KP needs to transform into this:

Bad/Angry unicron.

He needs an X-Man\Oakley\Mase type sidekick to scare the **** out of guys who trying to push KP around.

We should transfuse KP with Oakley's blood.

[HarthorneWingo]

What's his nba comparison

Michael Beasley

If he's lucky.

[HarthorneWingo]

You know what I think? I'm gonna tell you anyhow.

I think these broads who are draining KP's juices from his body are making him physically weak. KP has to dump these babes now. They'll be around this summer.