Let's Talk About Mario

[tiderulz]

This is another one of the reasons I'm still not sold on Vogel, and to an extent on our new FO (the same one that dealt two draft picks for nothing in return in a deep draft because they didn't want to have too many rookies in a year they then declare as an "evaluation" one).

I would have not be mad at the decision not to extend Mario if Vogel had played Wes, some g-league guy ahead of him this year. That would reinforce the idea that Mario was not an NBAish player. But no, they throw him out there and he proves that when he's given minutes, the ball and get plays called he can be a contributor and has some potential.

Blunder after blunder, this franchise keeps making decisions that ultimately make the organization management look like a bunch of rich folks that know absolutely nothing about managing a basketball team from a sporting perspective.

Yeah, I agree. Simply don't get the fascination with new FO. Yes, we now have experienced, proven management to counter unlucky strike we had hiring youngest GM in the league. But we should be alert as all they proven so far is capability of building mediocre teams, even when landing superstar in draft. Draft flatten out and Mario issue exemplifies that.

We didn't brought Jerry West or Danny Ainge here, we've so far seen some bad asset management coupled with good FA signing in Simmons.

That 25th pick could had been used for kuzma...

to play behind AG?

[bobbeaver]

None of us casual fans have any idea what Hezonja is like in the locker room or training gym. Players earn their minutes off of the bench, and that Hezonja got little playing time means to me that he was poppy and did not practice the right way.


..

didn't magic coaches called him hardest worker at gym just year ago ? so it's not like he wasn't giving his best

i thought it was the opposite. That he wasnt trying that hard in practice and was constantly lost.

No. Coach said the former, him being hardest wrking. But lethargic on court. I can see why. Some random no name sources stated by ppl on here said he was lazy. Lost on D he always was till now. He needed to learn n b trained as a project everyone knew he was.

[tiderulz]

didn't magic coaches called him hardest worker at gym just year ago ? so it's not like he wasn't giving his best

i thought it was the opposite. That he wasnt trying that hard in practice and was constantly lost.

No. Coach said the former, him being hardest wrking. But lethargic on court. I can see why. Some random no name sources stated by ppl on here said he was lazy. Lost on D he always was till now. He needed to learn n b trained as a project everyone knew he was.

nope, im pretty sure I remember him being ripped last year about his practice habits. or that he was just as lost in practice as he looked in the games

[fendilim]

i thought it was the opposite. That he wasnt trying that hard in practice and was constantly lost.

No. Coach said the former, him being hardest wrking. But lethargic on court. I can see why. Some random no name sources stated by ppl on here said he was lazy. Lost on D he always was till now. He needed to learn n b trained as a project everyone knew he was.

nope, im pretty sure I remember him being ripped last year about his practice habits. or that he was just as lost in practice as he looked in the games

i dont recall that. Vogel and Skiles were on record regarding him having one of the better work ethics on the team. There were even an article how he was asking some advice from veterans, etc.

And some posters like magicfan101 was simply speculating how he has attitude problems etc, when it was proven that vogel likes how mario handled the whole stituation staying professional etc.

[bobbeaver]

i thought it was the opposite. That he wasnt trying that hard in practice and was constantly lost.

No. Coach said the former, him being hardest wrking. But lethargic on court. I can see why. Some random no name sources stated by ppl on here said he was lazy. Lost on D he always was till now. He needed to learn n b trained as a project everyone knew he was.

nope, im pretty sure I remember him being ripped last year about his practice habits. or that he was just as lost in practice as he looked in the games

Trust me on this. Those criticizms came from unnamed sources from ppl on here. If anything him being lost in games n on group practices refered most of all to his not knowing team D. This doesnt say anything about his work ethic. I mean think about it. u saying him playing D quite well now came from thin air?

[Skin]

Well, the bottom line is we have to trade him now or we'll lose him for nothing in the offseason.

To counter that thought, teams won't feel like trading for him because if they want him, they can go for him in FA.

LOL. I don't care how crappy you think your rookie contract guys are, it's always a bad idea to no attach the Team Option on his deal to make him a RFA. Another one of WeHam's mistakes following a bad draft (after picking Isaac). These guys suck, but I'll keep giving them a chance since they are new. Bringing in Simmons was a big plus in their favor.

[SOUL]

Bringing in Simmons was a big plus in their favor.

Eh, he's one of the biggest negatives in the NBA as far as impact so far.. kinda seeing why SA didn't want to pay him that much.

[SOUL]

The issue of Mario was a simple one, he needed to be able to play through his mistakes. Like Xatticus said, if you're going to have a high draft pick and do nothing to develop him, it's a misuse of resources. We were lucky enough to get a top 5 pick.. the logical thing to do is make sure you give every opportunity you can for the kid to succeed. We didn't, and here we are.

Mario should take some blame for it, of course, but he can only do so much when he has a tighter leash than most. And as I always like to bring up.. I know I argued with some of you guys that are complaining about Mario's contract now not being picked up, but a year or two ago some posters would argue until they're blue in the face about how it's "developing" him to learn patience, and how "he will get his chances" eventually, and all these other excuses as to why some retired vet now deserved those minutes over Mario. You got what you wished for.

[Skin]

Bringing in Simmons was a big plus in their favor.

Eh, he's one of the biggest negatives in the NBA as far as impact so far.. kinda seeing why SA didn't want to pay him that much.

You've given up too early. Interesting considering how long you keep a leash on your pet cats.

[Skin]

The issue of Mario was a simple one, he needed to be able to play through his mistakes. Like Xatticus said, if you're going to have a high draft pick and do nothing to develop him, it's a misuse of resources. We were lucky enough to get a top 5 pick.. the logical thing to do is make sure you give every opportunity you can for the kid to succeed. We didn't, and here we are.

Mario should take some blame for it, of course, but he can only do so much when he has a tighter leash than most. And as I always like to bring up.. I know I argued with some of you guys that are complaining about Mario's contract now not being picked up, but a year or two ago some posters would argue until they're blue in the face about how it's "developing" him to learn patience, and how "he will get his chances" eventually, and all these other excuses as to why some retired vet now deserved those minutes over Mario. You got what you wished for.

The problem was we went into the drafting thinking we should draft BPA and our BPA list was incorrectly ranked. Despite having a fully loaded cupboard of young talent trying to breakout on their own at the same positions, Henny decided to pick this scrub who had no chance of beating out the competition. We already had Dipo, Fournier, Tobias and AG and then we took Mario. LMAO. Majority of this forum loved the pick too. We needed to improve our interior presence and improve out outside shooting. But we passed up on Myles Turner and Devin Booker. Laughable.

[SOUL]

Bringing in Simmons was a big plus in their favor.

Eh, he's one of the biggest negatives in the NBA as far as impact so far.. kinda seeing why SA didn't want to pay him that much.

You've given up too early. Interesting considering how long you keep a leash on your pet cats.

He can turn it around surely, but this guy has had a super long leash already just 2-3 months in and it's not like he played horribly the entire season. In fact, it scares me that he played pretty well for a while and still didn't have any real impact on the court. If there's anything I like about him currently it's his attitude and potential leadership ability, just want that to translate to actual impact on the floor. I think Mario is vastly better for the starting lineup at the moment, too bad he's gonna be gone by the trade deadline or next year.

[fendilim]

Bringing in Simmons was a big plus in their favor.

Eh, he's one of the biggest negatives in the NBA as far as impact so far.. kinda seeing why SA didn't want to pay him that much.

You've given up too early. Interesting considering how long you keep a leash on your pet cats.

Lol but seriously, simmons has been a disappointment. He had a great start, just like anyone else on the team. But he’s been quite inefficient.

Im just happy we’re paying him like 3 million a season tho.

[SOUL]

The issue of Mario was a simple one, he needed to be able to play through his mistakes. Like Xatticus said, if you're going to have a high draft pick and do nothing to develop him, it's a misuse of resources. We were lucky enough to get a top 5 pick.. the logical thing to do is make sure you give every opportunity you can for the kid to succeed. We didn't, and here we are.

Mario should take some blame for it, of course, but he can only do so much when he has a tighter leash than most. And as I always like to bring up.. I know I argued with some of you guys that are complaining about Mario's contract now not being picked up, but a year or two ago some posters would argue until they're blue in the face about how it's "developing" him to learn patience, and how "he will get his chances" eventually, and all these other excuses as to why some retired vet now deserved those minutes over Mario. You got what you wished for.

The problem was we went into the drafting thinking we should draft BPA and our BPA list was incorrectly ranked. Despite having a fully loaded cupboard of young talent trying to breakout on their own at the same positions, Henny decided to pick this scrub who had no chance of beating out the competition. We already had Dipo, Fournier, Tobias and AG and then we took Mario. LMAO. Majority of this forum loved the pick too. We needed to improve our interior presence and improve out outside shooting. But we passed up on Myles Turner and Devin Booker. Laughable.

Ehhh I mean both of those guys were looked at as 10-15 sort of picks. We had some people wanting those guys, and Booker wanted to play here, but we just didn't think they were top 5 pick material. I think a lot of people envisioned Mario being a better player than Booker easily and the better shooter around draft time.

Myles is actually struggling a bit this year, and Booker prior to this year wasn't even shooting the three that well and was one of the least impactful players relative to his "star" power. It's all about opportunity, fit, and confidence with these new guys. We gave Mario none of that.

[Skin]

Eh, he's one of the biggest negatives in the NBA as far as impact so far.. kinda seeing why SA didn't want to pay him that much.

You've given up too early. Interesting considering how long you keep a leash on your pet cats.

He can turn it around surely, but this guy has had a super long leash already just 2-3 months in and it's not like he played horribly the entire season. In fact, it scares me that he played pretty well for a while and still didn't have any real impact on the court. If there's anything I like about him currently it's his attitude and potential leadership ability, just want that to translate to actual impact on the floor. I think Mario is vastly better for the starting lineup at the moment, too bad he's gonna be gone by the trade deadline or next year.

How are you judging this "impact on the floor"? +/-? W/L? Other?

[Skin]

The issue of Mario was a simple one, he needed to be able to play through his mistakes. Like Xatticus said, if you're going to have a high draft pick and do nothing to develop him, it's a misuse of resources. We were lucky enough to get a top 5 pick.. the logical thing to do is make sure you give every opportunity you can for the kid to succeed. We didn't, and here we are.

Mario should take some blame for it, of course, but he can only do so much when he has a tighter leash than most. And as I always like to bring up.. I know I argued with some of you guys that are complaining about Mario's contract now not being picked up, but a year or two ago some posters would argue until they're blue in the face about how it's "developing" him to learn patience, and how "he will get his chances" eventually, and all these other excuses as to why some retired vet now deserved those minutes over Mario. You got what you wished for.

The problem was we went into the drafting thinking we should draft BPA and our BPA list was incorrectly ranked. Despite having a fully loaded cupboard of young talent trying to breakout on their own at the same positions, Henny decided to pick this scrub who had no chance of beating out the competition. We already had Dipo, Fournier, Tobias and AG and then we took Mario. LMAO. Majority of this forum loved the pick too. We needed to improve our interior presence and improve out outside shooting. But we passed up on Myles Turner and Devin Booker. Laughable.

Ehhh I mean both of those guys were looked at as 10-15 sort of picks. We had some people wanting those guys, and Booker wanted to play here, but we just didn't think they were top 5 pick material. I think a lot of people envisioned Mario being a better player than Booker easily and the better shooter around draft time.

Myles is actually struggling a bit this year, and Booker prior to this year wasn't even shooting the three that well and was one of the least impactful players relative to his "star" power. It's all about opportunity, fit, and confidence with these new guys. We gave Mario none of that.

This is why I say tanking is only part of the fix... you have to be able to scout the talent and pick the right player.

Booker and Turner were ranked in that area because that is where the draft prognosticators saw them going according to the info they were getting from the pulse of NBA teams. A lot of fans think that the draft guys on ESPN or .net or DX, etc give us correct information about who is BPA and what the proper rankings are. That's bull. NBA teams don't follow them. They follow NBA teams! So if the Magic had shown interest in Turner or Booker at 5, then the draft niks would've all changed their boards and mock drafts.

This whole idea that there is some magical BPA board that dictates the proper value of players is ludicrous. It's mostly based on how the draft niks try to get read on what they think NBA front offices think. Mario Hezonja wasn't a Top 5 guy in any circles until the very end because the draft niks started to get a read that the Magic were going to take him. Had they honed in on Turner or Booker, then the same would've been true for them.

[fklt]

draft itself is a weighted lottery. sometimes a player with the 60% chance of panning out busts, and a player 30% chance shines down the line. doesn't mean picking the guy with a higher chance was the wrong call.

it's not a case of "You have to be able to scout and find the right guys!". when ginobili was passed 56 times, it didn't mean all those teams were managed by idiots. you can't just pick all the successful guys years later with hindsight and claim that's the order they should be picked.

[SOUL]

You've given up too early. Interesting considering how long you keep a leash on your pet cats.

He can turn it around surely, but this guy has had a super long leash already just 2-3 months in and it's not like he played horribly the entire season. In fact, it scares me that he played pretty well for a while and still didn't have any real impact on the court. If there's anything I like about him currently it's his attitude and potential leadership ability, just want that to translate to actual impact on the floor. I think Mario is vastly better for the starting lineup at the moment, too bad he's gonna be gone by the trade deadline or next year.

How are you judging this "impact on the floor"? +/-? W/L? Other?

Advanced stats compared to his usage. He's top 3 in usage on the team and bottom 5 in most advanced stats on the team. A 0.23 winshare/48 (good for 13th on the team), 100 ORTG/113 DRTG, ESPN's Real Plus-Minus has him all the way down at 452 of 467 players and he averages the most minutes on the entire last page of players (aka the league's most inefficient) with 28.9 minutes. The next highest players getting that many minutes while playing that ineffectively are Derrick Rose and De'Aaron Fox who is a rookie. It's just ugly stuff relative to his minutes and usage. I wouldn't be as vocal about it if we weren't acting like he deserved 30-35 minutes a game, but apparently we do.

[drsd]

Well, the bottom line is we have to trade him now or we'll lose him for nothing in the offseason.

Bluntly this is correct.



..

[BadMofoPimp]

He can turn it around surely, but this guy has had a super long leash already just 2-3 months in and it's not like he played horribly the entire season. In fact, it scares me that he played pretty well for a while and still didn't have any real impact on the court. If there's anything I like about him currently it's his attitude and potential leadership ability, just want that to translate to actual impact on the floor. I think Mario is vastly better for the starting lineup at the moment, too bad he's gonna be gone by the trade deadline or next year.

How are you judging this "impact on the floor"? +/-? W/L? Other?

Advanced stats compared to his usage. He's top 3 in usage on the team and bottom 5 in most advanced stats on the team. A 0.23 winshare/48 (good for 13th on the team), 100 ORTG/113 DRTG, ESPN's Real Plus-Minus has him all the way down at 452 of 467 players and he averages the most minutes on the entire last page of players (aka the league's most inefficient) with 28.9 minutes. The next highest players getting that many minutes while playing that ineffectively are Derrick Rose and De'Aaron Fox who is a rookie. It's just ugly stuff relative to his minutes and usage. I wouldn't be as vocal about it if we weren't acting like he deserved 30-35 minutes a game, but apparently we do.

Well, the team flat out sucks so I am sure playing on this squad is hurting his "advanced stats." Regardless, he is looking better of late.

[SOUL]

Well, the team flat out sucks so I am sure playing on this squad is hurting his "advanced stats." Regardless, he is looking better of late.

That's not how advanced stats work though lol. For instance, Vucevic's advanced stats are very good despite the team being bad.. so that would mean you'd have to be willing to admit that Vucevic's stats don't matter if you want to say that Simmons bad stats mean nothing

Also I'm talking about Simmons, not Mario. And he's been terrible lately. Simmons last 5 games before injury: 1-8, 3-13, 4-10, 3-12, 1-3. Has a 88/88 assist/turnover total for the season .. even Gordon who many says doesn't pass has a positive ast/to ratio.