Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4

Revived · Post #1641 » by **Revived** » Tue Jan 9, 2018 2:44 am

I think the Suns with a PG that doesn’t suck and can shoot is a top 15 team in the NBA automatically.

Add a consistent starting production from the 5 spot and they become even better imo.

I don’t think many realize that Tyler Ulis being a starting player in the nba is one of the craziest things ever. Literally other opposing PGs are coming in grinning for games against the Suns. There are probably D league PGs who would light up Ulis as well. It’s not Ulis fault, he’s just too short and doesn’t have the offensive talent like IT to make up for it

Post #1642 » by **bwgood77** » Tue Jan 9, 2018 3:48 am

I like Clarkson ok, but he eats up our cap space the next two summers. I don't think they'd sacrifice the cap space for 2019 for a player like him. Not with Knight still on the books too.

jredsaz · Post #1643 » by **jredsaz** » Tue Jan 9, 2018 5:22 am

Revived wrote:I think the Suns with a PG that doesn’t suck and can shoot is a top 15 team in the NBA automatically.

Add a consistent starting production from the 5 spot and they become even better imo.

I don’t think many realize that Tyler Ulis being a starting player in the nba is one of the craziest things ever. Literally other opposing PGs are coming in grinning for games against the Suns. There are probably D league PGs who would light up Ulis as well. It’s not Ulis fault, he’s just too short and doesn’t have the offensive talent like IT to make up for it

You think that with a healthy, motivated Bledsoe we would be 6 or 7 games better? Maybe.

Post #1644 » by **lilfishi22** » Tue Jan 9, 2018 5:58 am

I think Clarkson is an awesome 6th man type player. For his level of production (22/4/5 per36) he could fit well next to Booker if we have Booker play PG full time. I also think his contract is fair for what he gives. His defense leaves a bit to be desired but at least he has size to play the 1, he passes well enough and he can shoot the 3.

If it's between Clarkson and G.Hill, I might give Clarkson the nod even though Hill is a better fit next to Booker. Clarkson is younger, more athletic and cost about $6-7m a yr less

WeekapaugGroove · Post #1645 » by **WeekapaugGroove** » Tue Jan 9, 2018 6:24 am

The better this team plays the less interested in hill I get. I'd much rather use that money this offseason to get a better player than hill and really give it a go next season. Wait until you know how the draft plays out and what trades maybe available before locking in that money. Hell if no other options present themselves they could probaly fall back on hill this summer. His contract won't be easy to move so sac will probably be in the same spot 6 months from now.

thamadkant · Post #1646 » by **thamadkant** » Tue Jan 9, 2018 7:15 am

Jeremy Lin is my preferred PG... he can be signed cheaper IMO and pretty good scoring PG.

Post #1647 » by **Qwigglez** » Tue Jan 9, 2018 10:39 am

Just hit the I Believe button for a second before you open up the spoiler. Take 5 shots, smoke something, get to your happy place.

Spoiler:

Boom, McDonough had McDoneIt.

m1chal · Post #1648 » by **m1chal** » Tue Jan 9, 2018 11:23 am

My I believe button just doesn't seem to work well enough

I cannot really understand how Kemba Walker is worth 3 1-round picks.

Mulhollanddrive · Post #1649 » by **Mulhollanddrive** » Tue Jan 9, 2018 11:32 am

I don't care about winning trades if you can get 4 All-Stars.

Post #1650 » by **Qwigglez** » Tue Jan 9, 2018 11:40 am

m1chal wrote:My I believe button just doesn't seem to work well enough
I cannot really understand how Kemba Walker is worth 3 1-round picks.

He isn't. It's really just because we dumped a player for him and we maintain cap flexibility for the summer and can have that specific roster. That is what we are dumping 3 1st round picks for.

NavLDO · Post #1651 » by **NavLDO** » Tue Jan 9, 2018 12:05 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:
NavLDO wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
I have a hard time considering TJ a #3 option on a contender. Not having a 3-ball really hurts. We already see it now with our lack of spacing when he's on the floor. We also see when his defender completely disrespects his shot and batters down closer to the hoop baiting him into shooting the 3. Perhaps if we had 35%+ 3PT shooters in at least 3 other positions on the floor with him at the same time his weakness can be mitigated but right now, we have some of the worst spacing because we don't shoot the 3 ball well and TJ having the 2nd highest USG% and not having a 3 ball is a big part of it. Josh Jackson shoots the 3 better than him right now and that's scary.

Maybe he's fine if we are OK with being just a fringe playoff team but if we wanted to get to the next level and for TJ to be a major part of that, I do believe he needs to shoot the 3 reliably. It might not be that evident now since we're not a good team and he's still putting up an efficient 20ppg but on the highest levels, his weakness will 100% be exploited.

All this and we haven't even talked about his total lack of a passing game. In 1283 minutes played this season, TJ has logged 57 assists. JJ has 12 less assists in over 400 less min played. Marquese Chriss who has ZERO playmaking responsibilities has 6 less assists in 400 less min played. His assist rate is almost identical to that of a notorious black hole and who many considered would never get a ring with his style of basketball and that's 33 year old Melo which is a career low for him.

Let me put it in another way, in the last 5 seasons, of the 12 players with USG% higher than .25% (suggesting they are a considerable part of a team's offense), an AST% less than .10% (suggesting they aren't good passers), virtually all of them were big men. Of the 4 wings, Klay, TJ, Nick Young, Barnes, only Klay played on a winning team.

The only reason TJ gets a pass is because he's young, we don't have many shooters and he's an efficient scorer. I'm not hating on TJ, I'm not saying he's a bad player and I'm not saying he can't be on a good team but as I said, it might be OK for now but if we want to be a better team collectively and if he wants to take his game to the next level, he can't JUST be an efficient scorer.

And I'm not necessarily at odds with you, but as I alluded, once Chriss/Bender become more consistent, we have PFs that shoot the 3 at a clip of 38% or higher; we have Booker that does as well; once we bring in a 3rd, be it Reed with Booker as the Combo, or some PG with Booker as the SG...whatever. That's 3 of 5 'shooters'. Using the 'traditional' model, most teams only have 2-3 3PT threats...some have 4...but it's certainly not a requirement.

Regarding his assists, he had 5 just 2 games ago...he had 4 back on 12/20...and is averaging 1.8 per game his past 10 games. Overall, his AP48 is 2.1. Porter's is 2.8. Wiggins is 2.3. Ariza is 2.2. Tobias Harris is 2.6. And Bojan Bogdanovich is 2.2. Not to mention Covington (2.8), Stan the Man (2.5), and MKG (2.2). So, rather than just looking at it in a vacuum against another stat of his, look at other starting SFs and their numbers, and you see the while Warren's number are less, we're talking, in many cases, just fractions less.

But the big piece here, is again, understanding that Warren is a different animal than any other SF out there; he's special in that regard. Rather than look at that as a problem that needs to be hidden, why not find a way to take advantage of the skillset so that we have a weapon that no one else has...an unconventional offense that will require extra attention to defend against.

But whatever, I'm not a coach, not a player...just a fan. What do I know? Maybe there's no way to make it work in it's current form...

My whole point is that TJ right now is a fine player but for us to take our game to the next level collectively, he needs to do more than just be an efficient 2PT scorer. We're going to struggle getting up to the upper echelon of the playoff brackets if our 2nd/3rd best scorer is a wing that can't shoot 3's or pass very well. It's just the way the NBA is today. You need to spread the floor for your star players to flourish and be most effective. If we want a great complementary scorer next to Booker, we need someone that can hit the 3 because Harden didn't become Harden and averaging double digit assists by playing next to guys who can't hit 3's. I want that complementary scorer to be Warren but he needs to have a reliable 3 ball if we are to be a contender.

Regarding the assists, the only 2 players who comes close to TJ in USG% is Wiggins and Harris. Neither guys are great passers but neither players a liability from the 3 either, in other words, they provide an outlet for passers. TJ doesn't pass much and he doesn't shoot the 3 ball. As I mentioned already, if we want TJ to be a 2nd option on a upper echelon playoff team, he needs to be able to pass and/or spread the floor for your #1 option.

And to say TJ is a 'different animal' means very little. He's different in that he's only very good at one thing. He's different in that he can't hit 3's like many of the top SF's. He's different in that he has a low assist rates compared to his high usage. I'm not saying he can't be on a good team but his weakness is very apparent already. When teams scout out team better and see what TJ can and can't do, it's going to be an issue for us.

Well, if his usage rate is so high, and we win more games this season as he gets better and is used more, then that seems to work out ok. My point is, there are a ton of players in the NBA with high USG%, with non-existent 3PT%. Yes, they might be PFs or Cs, but the point of the matter is, teams can win with 3, 3PT threats on the floor. PG-Booker-Bender or Chriss...why cannot they plus Warren and our Center be successful?

And Warren IS different in that he's a threat from anywhere within the arc; there are very few players who can present the type of threat that he can, and while it would be fantastic if he could shoot the 3, for some reason, he's got a mental block this year, or his shot mechanics have taken a nose-dive from his 2nd season in the league...IDK. Hopefully, the 'coaches' are addressing it somehow with him.

But the fact of the matter is, we have a 19.6/5.6 producer on the floor, who's #1 in ORB (3rd ORR) at his position (why? IDK, but contrary to popular belief, that is very helpful to get 2nd chance shots), he's tied for 6th in 2PT%...so without Bledsoe, yet WITH Warren's improvements, we are better than last year. Of course, Bender is better, and we have JJ, as well, who seems to be getting better each game, as well.

So, if we can be successful with this core, with just an added PG or Combo Guard or whatever the heck McD's plan is, with a Center NOT named Chandler as our starter, we'd probably be pretty darned good.

If it requires that we start JJ, because he's the better 3PT shooter, well, then I suggest McD trade Warren now, because put yourself in Warren's shoes for a minute. You are top 5 in the NBA in Scoring and PER, and THE top in ORB, and in the top 5-10 in other areas as well (2PT%, FGA, etc.). You've done everything you can toestablish yourself as the starting SF on the team, up to and including, taking a team-friendly contract extension. And in return, the Team drafts a guy at your position, then the next year, puts you on the bench in favor of a guy who can't shoot better than you in ANY regard, EXCEPT, 3PT, and not even that well.

Well, if I'm Warren and a Pro-Basketball player, I probably have a bit of an ego...and an attitude. And hey, I've just seen it happen over and over on this club; if i act like a whiny pain in the butt, I'll get traded to a team I want...cool. See ya!

Maybe it doesn't play out that way, but I see no reason to 'test those waters'. Keep him as the starter, and make him fit into our offense, because he's NOT the biggest roadblock to have to overcome. My god, the guy shoots 19.6 pts/gm, and provides 5.6 TRB. He's a positive contributor, and many teams would love to have him on their team over what they are trotting out there now as their starting SF.

And in the meantime, coaches, do what you can to fix his weaknesses, be it his assists, or his 3PT shot, and figure out away to make JJ happy by getting him bench minutes at the 2 and 3, so he gets his 30 MPG as well.

King_Supreme · Post #1652 » by **King_Supreme** » Tue Jan 9, 2018 1:15 pm

Heat fan here, would you guys be open to giving us our picks backs for Whiteside in the offseason? If not, what would entice you guys to you our picks back?

hollywood6964 · Post #1653 » by **hollywood6964** » Tue Jan 9, 2018 1:59 pm

Revived wrote:I think the Suns with a PG that doesn’t suck and can shoot is a top 15 team in the NBA automatically.

Add a consistent starting production from the 5 spot and they become even better imo.

I don’t think many realize that Tyler Ulis being a starting player in the nba is one of the craziest things ever. Literally other opposing PGs are coming in grinning for games against the Suns. There are probably D league PGs who would light up Ulis as well. It’s not Ulis fault, he’s just too short and doesn’t have the offensive talent like IT to make up for it

It is pretty ridiculous. I think thomas a an inch or two on him as well. But most importantly, looks like thomas is on some decent doses of anabolics, while Ulis is on a meager amount, if anything.

Mulhollanddrive · Post #1654 » by **Mulhollanddrive** » Tue Jan 9, 2018 2:17 pm

King_Supreme wrote:Heat fan here, would you guys be open to giving us our picks backs for Whiteside in the offseason? If not, what would entice you guys to you our picks back?

I would but I think most wouldn't.

carey · Post #1655 » by **carey** » Tue Jan 9, 2018 2:39 pm

King_Supreme wrote:Heat fan here, would you guys be open to giving us our picks backs for Whiteside in the offseason? If not, what would entice you guys to you our picks back?

You're never getting the unprotected one back. I'm sorry.

Also, I listen to the LeBatard show every day including the local hour. No way that you could convince me Whiteside would get that kind of return from any team. Especially with that much salary remaining. The kid has a player option for $27M in '19-'20.

Stix · Post #1656 » by **Stix** » Tue Jan 9, 2018 3:59 pm

King_Supreme wrote:Heat fan here, would you guys be open to giving us our picks backs for Whiteside in the offseason? If not, what would entice you guys to you our picks back?

Dragic.

Frank Lee · Post #1657 » by **Frank Lee** » Tue Jan 9, 2018 4:07 pm

jredsaz wrote:
Revived wrote:I think the Suns with a PG that doesn’t suck and can shoot is a top 15 team in the NBA automatically.

Add a consistent starting production from the 5 spot and they become even better imo.

I don’t think many realize that Tyler Ulis being a starting player in the nba is one of the craziest things ever. Literally other opposing PGs are coming in grinning for games against the Suns. There are probably D league PGs who would light up Ulis as well. It’s not Ulis fault, he’s just too short and doesn’t have the offensive talent like IT to make up for it

You think that with a healthy, motivated Bledsoe we would be 6 or 7 games better? Maybe.

I think he said PG ... :wink:

Frank Lee · Post #1658 » by **Frank Lee** » Tue Jan 9, 2018 4:16 pm

The easy bandaid here is to make a deal for Tyreke Evans ... a second round pick or two... then make a decision between him and Jeremy Lin (or?) in the off season. I dont think we have much of a chance trying to find a PG in the draft, especially one we need to start/effectively contribute right away.

Evans would be a tremendous upgrade over TinyUlis and allow for a more 'Harden-ish' role from Booker. I dont think Caanon is our long term answer except for a bench role. I see Ulis in China the moment Booker inks up long term. In fact, I'd trade him now so it wont be McD who is the one to cut him. Send him to memphis with a couple 2s and get Tyreke. All I can think of when I watch Ulis is Mars Blackmon.

Post #1659 » by **bwgood77** » Tue Jan 9, 2018 4:57 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:I think Clarkson is an awesome 6th man type player. For his level of production (22/4/5 per36) he could fit well next to Booker if we have Booker play PG full time. I also think his contract is fair for what he gives. His defense leaves a bit to be desired but at least he has size to play the 1, he passes well enough and he can shoot the 3.

If it's between Clarkson and G.Hill, I might give Clarkson the nod even though Hill is a better fit next to Booker. Clarkson is younger, more athletic and cost about $6-7m a yr less

I don't think at this point it's good to plan in the future to play Book at PG full time. I think currently it might work ok if we play JJ and TJ and 2 and 3 but those two together might typically hurt our spacing too much unless one or both can regularly hit 3s at a decent rate.

ImNotMcDiSwear · Post #1660 » by **ImNotMcDiSwear** » Tue Jan 9, 2018 5:16 pm

Frank Lee wrote:The easy bandaid here is to make a deal for Tyreke Evans ... a second round pick or two... then make a decision between him and Jeremy Lin (or?) in the off season. I dont think we have much of a chance trying to find a PG in the draft, especially one we need to start/effectively contribute right away.

Evans would be a tremendous upgrade over TinyUlis and allow for a more 'Harden-ish' role from Booker. I dont think Caanon is our long term answer except for a bench role. I see Ulis in China the moment Booker inks up long term. In fact, I'd trade him now so it wont be McD who is the one to cut him. Send him to memphis with a couple 2s and get Tyreke. All I can think of when I watch Ulis is Mars Blackmon.

I just don't think there's a point to this. Tyreke is a score-first guy, and we're in the business of developing our current group. I like the progress they're making and would prefer not to add a guy like that. I would like to establish this group, and then inquire this summer about free agents or trade options who are interested in fitting in with what we've developed. Len might be useful as a S&T piece, considering most teams would not be able to sign him using cap space.

Would rather look at using these additional seconds and Monroe's expiring to move Knight, if at all possible. Otherwise, continue to hold. I'm even open to selling a second rounder or two, assuming we'll spend big in order to keep the group together when their free agency arrives.

What direction would you like the front office to take?