Let's Talk About Mario

[p0peye]

How are you judging this "impact on the floor"? +/-? W/L? Other?

Advanced stats compared to his usage. He's top 3 in usage on the team and bottom 5 in most advanced stats on the team. A 0.23 winshare/48 (good for 13th on the team), 100 ORTG/113 DRTG, ESPN's Real Plus-Minus has him all the way down at 452 of 467 players and he averages the most minutes on the entire last page of players (aka the league's most inefficient) with 28.9 minutes. The next highest players getting that many minutes while playing that ineffectively are Derrick Rose and De'Aaron Fox who is a rookie. It's just ugly stuff relative to his minutes and usage. I wouldn't be as vocal about it if we weren't acting like he deserved 30-35 minutes a game, but apparently we do.

Well, the team flat out sucks so I am sure playing on this squad is hurting his "advanced stats." Regardless, he is looking better of late.

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/devin_booker_vs_kevin_martin.htm

[bobbeaver]

The problem was we went into the drafting thinking we should draft BPA and our BPA list was incorrectly ranked. Despite having a fully loaded cupboard of young talent trying to breakout on their own at the same positions, Henny decided to pick this scrub who had no chance of beating out the competition. We already had Dipo, Fournier, Tobias and AG and then we took Mario. LMAO. Majority of this forum loved the pick too. We needed to improve our interior presence and improve out outside shooting. But we passed up on Myles Turner and Devin Booker. Laughable.

Ehhh I mean both of those guys were looked at as 10-15 sort of picks. We had some people wanting those guys, and Booker wanted to play here, but we just didn't think they were top 5 pick material. I think a lot of people envisioned Mario being a better player than Booker easily and the better shooter around draft time.

Myles is actually struggling a bit this year, and Booker prior to this year wasn't even shooting the three that well and was one of the least impactful players relative to his "star" power. It's all about opportunity, fit, and confidence with these new guys. We gave Mario none of that.

This is why I say tanking is only part of the fix... you have to be able to scout the talent and pick the right player.

Booker and Turner were ranked in that area because that is where the draft prognosticators saw them going according to the info they were getting from the pulse of NBA teams. A lot of fans think that the draft guys on ESPN or .net or DX, etc give us correct information about who is BPA and what the proper rankings are. That's bull. NBA teams don't follow them. They follow NBA teams! So if the Magic had shown interest in Turner or Booker at 5, then the draft niks would've all changed their boards and mock drafts.

This whole idea that there is some magical BPA board that dictates the proper value of players is ludicrous. It's mostly based on how the draft niks try to get read on what they think NBA front offices think. Mario Hezonja wasn't a Top 5 guy in any circles until the very end because the draft niks started to get a read that the Magic were going to take him. Had they honed in on Turner or Booker, then the same would've been true for them.

Skin there is a reason Booker n Myles were not picked up earlier. Booker developed his shot into what it is by haveing a cart blanch on mistakes and misses. He would not have developed those on the Magic. And he still sucks on D. Why Mario was taken is because of tools. Athleticism, shooting, hoops and length and flashes of ingame talent. He was superior in those to either of the candidates. Meaning he was taken for his cealing (as for what those picks are always chose for) and not his current bball skills. He was always ment as a project but with a developed shot. .35 3pct i very good for a rookie shooting from further away than he is used to. But issue was Orlando doesnt know how to handle projects. Because projects need a steady and forgiving free hand for atleast 3 years for a player to turn into a killer like Booker is now. They knew what they were getting that he was raw. Basically he was a hit or miss, but Orlando never even swang the bat.

[tiderulz]

No. Coach said the former, him being hardest wrking. But lethargic on court. I can see why. Some random no name sources stated by ppl on here said he was lazy. Lost on D he always was till now. He needed to learn n b trained as a project everyone knew he was.

nope, im pretty sure I remember him being ripped last year about his practice habits. or that he was just as lost in practice as he looked in the games

Trust me on this. Those criticizms came from unnamed sources from ppl on here. If anything him being lost in games n on group practices refered most of all to his not knowing team D. This doesnt say anything about his work ethic. I mean think about it. u saying him playing D quite well now came from thin air?

I dont know you, dont know who you know or pretend to know.

[Xatticus]

Well, the bottom line is we have to trade him now or we'll lose him for nothing in the offseason.

Bluntly this is correct.



..

We aren't getting anything for him regardless. His value is as an expiring contract that could help the numbers work in a larger deal. Nobody is going to give up anything meaningful to acquire him as he probably isn't going to help your team win games before walking into free agency in the summer.

Perhaps we could get a second round pick for him from a team that wants to get an up close look at him before the summer, but that hardly seems beneficial to us. I'd rather hang onto him and see how things play out.

[Instincts]

Was he a developmental pick? Yes
Has he had an opportunity? Yes
Was it a perfect opportunity? No
Has he developed as much as expected? No
Should Orlando attempt to resign Mario? Yes, if the price is right

Another thing to keep in mind is that Mario does have relationships with the guys on this team. The majority of his friends in this country are likely on this team. That could possibly play a role when and if he decides to sign with another nba team. Also a fresh relationship with management and increased opportunity / success these year could also tilt the scales towards a resigning with the magic. We can only guess at conversations between management and Mario, for all we know it could have been a "Mario the option decline is simply a business decision, but we really want to keep you here, we still believe in your future with the magic and have every intention of resigning you in the off season".

If more minutes clear in the rotation through deadline trades, it could also help him define a role and future in Orlando. Fact is he is likely buried on the bench for any contending nba team.

I would recommend starting Mario at SF for the remaining of the season. In the offseason having a cost/potential conversation and having the intent of resigning Mario if the price is right.

[fendilim]

Well, the bottom line is we have to trade him now or we'll lose him for nothing in the offseason.

Bluntly this is correct.



..

We aren't getting anything for him regardless. His value is as an expiring contract that could help the numbers work in a larger deal. Nobody is going to give up anything meaningful to acquire him as he probably isn't going to help your team win games before walking into free agency in the summer.

Perhaps we could get a second round pick for him from a team that wants to get an up close look at him before the summer, but that hardly seems beneficial to us. I'd rather hang onto him and see how things play out.

Nobody will trade for Mario. I mean, when they can just sign him in the offseason.

[fendilim]

Was he a developmental pick? Yes
Has he had an opportunity? Yes
Was it a perfect opportunity? No
Has he developed as much as expected? No
Should Orlando attempt to resign Mario? Yes, if the price is right

Another thing to keep in mind is that Mario does have relationships with the guys on this team. The majority of his friends in this country are likely on this team. That could possibly play a role when and if he decides to sign with another nba team. Also a fresh relationship with management and increased opportunity / success these year could also tilt the scales towards a resigning with the magic. We can only guess at conversations between management and Mario, for all we know it could have been a "Mario the option decline is simply a business decision, but we really want to keep you here, we still believe in your future with the magic and have every intention of resigning you in the off season".

If more minutes clear in the rotation through deadline trades, it could also help him define a role and future in Orlando. Fact is he is likely buried on the bench for any contending nba team.

I would recommend starting Mario at SF for the remaining of the season. In the offseason having a cost/potential conversation and having the intent of resigning Mario if the price is right.

Only way I see Mario re-signing is, we have the best offer for him financially, AND we move one of our wings by the trade deadline to show him about the intent to play him heavily next year.

As it stands right now, I doubt it. He has been used primarily at the 3 and the 4. 3 and 4 are played by Isaac and AG.

[drsd]

Nobody will trade for Mario. I mean, when they can just sign him in the offseason.

If a team say a rental of Hezoja as a path to win a title this year, then he would be tradeable. Other than that, he is only tradeable as an expiring contract.


..

[MartinsIzAfraud]

listened to PRR Locked on Magic podcast and he mentioned that WeltHam probably agreed with Hez's agent early on in season to not accept offer as a good faith thing. Wasn't Welt/Ham's pick and Mario needs to go elsewhere to try and salvage his career. If it weren't for the injuries he would be receiving a ton of DNP CD's..

Expecting a future 2nd rounder for mario, anything else is a blessing.

[bobbeaver]

nope, im pretty sure I remember him being ripped last year about his practice habits. or that he was just as lost in practice as he looked in the games

Trust me on this. Those criticizms came from unnamed sources from ppl on here. If anything him being lost in games n on group practices refered most of all to his not knowing team D. This doesnt say anything about his work ethic. I mean think about it. u saying him playing D quite well now came from thin air?

I dont know you, dont know who you know or pretend to know.

What kind of a dumbass respons is that. You just need to be able to read. To either my post or this forum. And two ppl are telling u the same thing. You defenitively didnt read my post.

[tiderulz]

Trust me on this. Those criticizms came from unnamed sources from ppl on here. If anything him being lost in games n on group practices refered most of all to his not knowing team D. This doesnt say anything about his work ethic. I mean think about it. u saying him playing D quite well now came from thin air?

I dont know you, dont know who you know or pretend to know.

What kind of a dumbass respons is that. You just need to be able to read. To either my post or this forum. And two ppl are telling u the same thing. You defenitively didnt read my post.

you are the one that said "trust me on this" why should i trust you when i dont know you , nor know you know.

[Instincts]

I agree with you that Isaac/AG are prob the 3/4 of the future, though some would argue Isaac/AG are the 4/5 of the future. Regardless we still have plenty of room for a young small forward at the right price, not saying it happens, only that Mario has attachments to Orlando which could be nurtured if management chooses to do so.

Was he a developmental pick? Yes
Has he had an opportunity? Yes
Was it a perfect opportunity? No
Has he developed as much as expected? No
Should Orlando attempt to resign Mario? Yes, if the price is right

Another thing to keep in mind is that Mario does have relationships with the guys on this team. The majority of his friends in this country are likely on this team. That could possibly play a role when and if he decides to sign with another nba team. Also a fresh relationship with management and increased opportunity / success these year could also tilt the scales towards a resigning with the magic. We can only guess at conversations between management and Mario, for all we know it could have been a "Mario the option decline is simply a business decision, but we really want to keep you here, we still believe in your future with the magic and have every intention of resigning you in the off season".

If more minutes clear in the rotation through deadline trades, it could also help him define a role and future in Orlando. Fact is he is likely buried on the bench for any contending nba team.

I would recommend starting Mario at SF for the remaining of the season. In the offseason having a cost/potential conversation and having the intent of resigning Mario if the price is right.

Only way I see Mario re-signing is, we have the best offer for him financially, AND we move one of our wings by the trade deadline to show him about the intent to play him heavily next year.

As it stands right now, I doubt it. He has been used primarily at the 3 and the 4. 3 and 4 are played by Isaac and AG.

[fendilim]

listened to PRR Locked on Magic podcast and he mentioned that WeltHam probably agreed with Hez's agent early on in season to not accept offer as a good faith thing. Wasn't Welt/Ham's pick and Mario needs to go elsewhere to try and salvage his career. If it weren't for the injuries he would be receiving a ton of DNP CD's..

Expecting a future 2nd rounder for mario, anything else is a blessing.

A 2nd rounder would even be a blessing, the Sixers had to give up a 2nd rounder and Stauskas alongside Jahlil just to get Trevor Booker.

[BadMofoPimp]

Well, the team flat out sucks so I am sure playing on this squad is hurting his "advanced stats." Regardless, he is looking better of late.

That's not how advanced stats work though lol. For instance, Vucevic's advanced stats are very good despite the team being bad.. so that would mean you'd have to be willing to admit that Vucevic's stats don't matter if you want to say that Simmons bad stats mean nothing

Also I'm talking about Simmons, not Mario. And he's been terrible lately. Simmons last 5 games before injury: 1-8, 3-13, 4-10, 3-12, 1-3. Has a 88/88 assist/turnover total for the season .. even Gordon who many says doesn't pass has a positive ast/to ratio.

Depends on what "Advanced Stats" people choose to evaluate from. If it is +/- for example, then a guy off the bench playing a couple minutes a game can get lucky to have great metrics.

[BadMofoPimp]

Advanced stats compared to his usage. He's top 3 in usage on the team and bottom 5 in most advanced stats on the team. A 0.23 winshare/48 (good for 13th on the team), 100 ORTG/113 DRTG, ESPN's Real Plus-Minus has him all the way down at 452 of 467 players and he averages the most minutes on the entire last page of players (aka the league's most inefficient) with 28.9 minutes. The next highest players getting that many minutes while playing that ineffectively are Derrick Rose and De'Aaron Fox who is a rookie. It's just ugly stuff relative to his minutes and usage. I wouldn't be as vocal about it if we weren't acting like he deserved 30-35 minutes a game, but apparently we do.

Well, the team flat out sucks so I am sure playing on this squad is hurting his "advanced stats." Regardless, he is looking better of late.

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/devin_booker_vs_kevin_martin.htm

So, Devin can chuck without having to play defense. Pay him the MAX!

Watch on YouTube

[prizm]

Yeah, I agree. Simply don't get the fascination with new FO. Yes, we now have experienced, proven management to counter unlucky strike we had hiring youngest GM in the league. But we should be alert as all they proven so far is capability of building mediocre teams, even when landing superstar in draft. Draft flatten out and Mario issue exemplifies that.

We didn't brought Jerry West or Danny Ainge here, we've so far seen some bad asset management coupled with good FA signing in Simmons.

That 25th pick could had been used for kuzma...

to play behind AG?

Yea... but he'd prob be a scrub under Vogel...any rookie turns a scrub under that dude since minutes are hardly seen unless injuries goes down... so forget I even mentioned it

[ChosenSavior]

Watch on YouTube

[tiderulz]

listened to PRR Locked on Magic podcast and he mentioned that WeltHam probably agreed with Hez's agent early on in season to not accept offer as a good faith thing. Wasn't Welt/Ham's pick and Mario needs to go elsewhere to try and salvage his career. If it weren't for the injuries he would be receiving a ton of DNP CD's..

Expecting a future 2nd rounder for mario, anything else is a blessing.

A 2nd rounder would even be a blessing, the Sixers had to give up a 2nd rounder and Stauskas alongside Jahlil just to get Trevor Booker.

that 2nd was to get Brooklyn to take Stauskas. Stauskas is/was not an asset

[ChosenSavior]

Watch on YouTube

[ladovina]

There is one thing missing... Eddy's take on curret evolving situation.

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