3rd Annual Fire Kidd Thread - Volume 2 (Horst Interview pg 14)

[sidney lanier]

yep. i dont take issue with his development of players. im just countering the "hes a good developer argument" because its absurd.

we know with a fair amount of certainty hes responsible for vaughn being picked, and i actually dont even dislike vaughn as a player. i dislike the way hes been handled. we are talking about a guy that played more minutes at 19yo in his rookie year, than any other year in his career. on top of that, we never provided him any consistent role in either the dleague/gleague, or in the nba.

i also believe that he finds some success elsewhere as a rotation guard.

You never responded to my challenge to supply evidence on the likelihood of post-Kidd improvement (after I supplied evidence to the contrary).

Now that I see your evidentiary standard, don't bother.

here, go nuts. - https://englishhhs.wikispaces.com/file/view/coaches.pdf

i dont know the results, i dont care. i know kidd sucks, and we cant do worse.

furthermore, i dont care about our results this season.its more important -that we fire him- than -when we fire him-.

I found that one myself yesterday and was going to cite it, but I was too lazy to read the whole thing and see what it said.

I still am, but kudos to you for doing the research. And I'm holding you to "we can't do worse" when the next coach comes along.

[econniption]

Best hope is that HE decides he wants to do something else.

Probably not going to happen while he's making $6 million/year. Doubt he can make that doing anything else.

He gets fired he gets paid for doing nothing but sitting on a beach in Cabo


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True, I'm sure he'd rather do that. But that implies that the owners would fire him and would be okay with eating that money. Maybe (and hopefully) they will be.

[DingleJerry]

The owners have to be rolling in the money right now (even more than usual) though don't they? With the stock market boom and the new tax laws. That 12ish mil or whatever is left should be nothing right now.

Who knows. Their business was hedge funds which looked in some instances to capitalize on distressed assets. There business fortunes could be way up or way down.

I would guess though that the four year ledger (May 15, 2014 to May 15, 2018) may show as challenged on a cash flow basis given the amount of investments they've made in the organization overall and the arena costs. The new arena cash flow doesn't start until next fall.

I'd agree in guessing that the team has been in the red since they took over. I'd also guess they're not seeing the expected demand they were hoping for on season tickets for the new arena. Generally speaking, I suppose they're smart to operate it as its own entity so how well they might be doing in other areas should/could be irrelevant. And obviously for 3 billionaires 12 mil is a drop in the bucket no matter what, but I was just kind of guessing that they could say "hey we all just saved X amount with the new tax rules plus the stock market went up 27% last year, let's blow 12 of that and move on from Kidd here."

I actually heard a friend of a friend type story where one of them was giving their kid 25 mil for a wedding present so...I guess I'm just saying I sure hope Kidd's contract isn't a hangup.

[Ron Swanson]

If anything the owners should want to build as much excitement as possible for the inaugural season at the new arena, and that's going to be awfully difficult if/when half the fan base is fed up with Kidd and staff like we're already seeing in the Facebook comments sections. A "fresh, new voice" at head coach and direction spearheaded by your 23-year old superstar is an easier sell.

[DingleJerry]

If anything the owners should want to build as much excitement as possible for the inaugural season at the new arena, and that's going to be awfully difficult if/when half the fan base is fed up with Kidd and staff like we're already seeing in the Facebook comments sections. A "fresh, new voice" at head coach and direction spearheaded by your 23-year old superstar is an easier sell.

And a first round loss looks inevitable right now and it would likely happen whoever is the coach. Getting to the 2nd round giving LBJ hell and winning 2 games would drum up some excitement too.

essentially you're looking at 1st round loss no matter who the coach is (barring Giannis injury), so I'd gamble that the shakeup might do better. If it doesn't, you're losing in the same spot anyway.

[Treebeard]

There's the whole catch-22 of all coach firings... Unless he voluntarily quits; there's the dance between eating dead money for firing him outright, or the lengthy disruption of coach/agent wangling for extension vs retaining him as a lame-duck till end of contract. Either way, it ends badly. So, if you want him gone - cut bait and fire him.

[buckboy]

Which happens first? Kidd fired or this thread goes another 100 pages?

Last thread lasted 2 months, 7 days. That gives Kidd until St. Patrick's Day. No chance he's fired by then.

[M-C-G]

If anything the owners should want to build as much excitement as possible for the inaugural season at the new arena, and that's going to be awfully difficult if/when half the fan base is fed up with Kidd and staff like we're already seeing in the Facebook comments sections. A "fresh, new voice" at head coach and direction spearheaded by your 23-year old superstar is an easier sell.

I rarely take to FB to express my dissatisfaction with the team, but this last week, I went there. And bless our Greek fans, because there are a ton of them that take to FB and lay into this organization and Kidd.

I even got a like from a Fotis, I am assuming it was the same one as on here.

[Ron Swanson]

I never go on FB for sports discussion but it's actually a pretty accurate gauge of the general fanbase. The NBA is light years ahead of the NFL, MLB, and NHL in regards to social media, partly because of the average age demographic. But the casual fan is finally "getting it" with Kidd.

[DingleJerry]

I don't have FB. But saw three cousins around the holidays who I rarely see. All are beyond normal level of passive fan but probably a notch below me, maybe one is about the equivalent of me on it. I didn't initiate or lead the convo and they all said the same stuff we're all saying here. Bash the D scheme and how little ball and player movement there is on O. Pretty easy for me to jump in then of course. Sure, your guy who just knows Giannis but doesn't really watch doesn't know the difference, but people who actually watch are probably 80-90% on the fire wagon. And it's not just your derp packer fan level of demanding firing just because we're used to winning and general negativity like all fan bases are, most can easily back it up with basketball reasons to why.

[crkone]

Read on Twitter

Interesting thread here. Basically says more data is needed to determine how well a 3ptr is contested. Stats use distance right now but they don't say anything about the quality of the contest, i.e. hands up or not, or speed of the closeout. Film is the key.

[Beorn]

The mood here is mostly anti-Kidd among people who follow the NBA and see the team half a dozen times per season or more. We are usually vocal when expressing our opinions (and not always in a good way), so it's not a surprise that Greek people have been roasting Kidd on FB. He wouldn't have lasted a full season in any of our top clubs with the **** he has been producing

[M-C-G]

The mood here is mostly anti-Kidd among people who follow the NBA and see the team half a dozen times per season or more. We are usually vocal when expressing our opinions (and not always in a good way), so it's not a surprise that Greek people have been roasting Kidd on FB. He wouldn't have lasted a full season in any of our top clubs with the **** he has been producing

I’m good with it.


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[FlagsFlyForever]

and rashad vaughn, and damien inglis, and johnny obryant, and thon maker, and dj wilson. these guys are a hair away from multiple all star games because kidd developed them.

We can never have a serious discussion about Jason Kidd because there are people who literally refuse to say a single good thing about him. Take another look at the players you listed in order to argue against Kidd's player development ability. Vaughn, Maker, and Wilson have spent their entire careers on the Bucks. Are you going to tell me they would be good players on another team? Inglis, JOB, and MCW all left the Bucks and have done what exactly?

we will never know whether or not kidd damaged the players that left or failed to develop the players that stayed and failed.

thats the point. you dont get to give him credit for being a good developer of talent when we have just as many failures as successes, hell, more failures. you dont get to say those players just simply had talent, and kidd developed talent in giannis.

you do not get to say that.

I just want to be clear about what you're saying. You accept that no player has left Jason Kidd and made something of himself under another coach and you're implying that it's because Kidd "damaged" these players? Look at the players who left the Bucks. You're going to say Damien Inglis' name like he really could've been somebody if only Kidd never coached him? Or MCW like he hasn't been terrible for four different teams?

Look at the success stories of Kidd's tenure. Giannis, Jabari, Middleton, Brogdon, Snell all exceeded expectations under Kidd. Even Brandon Knight played the best ball of his career under Jason Kidd. And you're going to suggest that he could've damaged players.

[ackypoo]

We can never have a serious discussion about Jason Kidd because there are people who literally refuse to say a single good thing about him. Take another look at the players you listed in order to argue against Kidd's player development ability. Vaughn, Maker, and Wilson have spent their entire careers on the Bucks. Are you going to tell me they would be good players on another team? Inglis, JOB, and MCW all left the Bucks and have done what exactly?

we will never know whether or not kidd damaged the players that left or failed to develop the players that stayed and failed.

thats the point. you dont get to give him credit for being a good developer of talent when we have just as many failures as successes, hell, more failures. you dont get to say those players just simply had talent, and kidd developed talent in giannis.

you do not get to say that.

I just want to be clear about what you're saying. You accept that no player has left Jason Kidd and made something of himself under another coach and you're implying that it's because Kidd "damaged" these players? Look at the players who left the Bucks. You're going to say Damien Inglis' name like he really could've been somebody if only Kidd never coached him? Or MCW like he hasn't been terrible for four different teams?

Look at the success stories of Kidd's tenure. Giannis, Jabari, Middleton, Brogdon, Snell all exceeded expectations under Kidd. Even Brandon Knight played the best ball of his career under Jason Kidd. And you're going to suggest that he could've damaged players.

no. youre unclear on what i am saying. readings not your strong suit.

look at the failure stories of kidds tenure. vaughn, tyler ennis, mcw, job, wolters, jared cunningham, terrence jones, thon maker, gary payton, axel toupane, and dj wilson.

[FlagsFlyForever]

we will never know whether or not kidd damaged the players that left or failed to develop the players that stayed and failed.

thats the point. you dont get to give him credit for being a good developer of talent when we have just as many failures as successes, hell, more failures. you dont get to say those players just simply had talent, and kidd developed talent in giannis.

you do not get to say that.

I just want to be clear about what you're saying. You accept that no player has left Jason Kidd and made something of himself under another coach and you're implying that it's because Kidd "damaged" these players? Look at the players who left the Bucks. You're going to say Damien Inglis' name like he really could've been somebody if only Kidd never coached him? Or MCW like he hasn't been terrible for four different teams?

Look at the success stories of Kidd's tenure. Giannis, Jabari, Middleton, Brogdon, Snell all exceeded expectations under Kidd. Even Brandon Knight played the best ball of his career under Jason Kidd. And you're going to suggest that he could've damaged players.

no. youre unclear on what i am saying. readings not your strong suit.

look at the failure stories of kidds tenure. vaughn, tyler ennis, mcw, job, wolters, jared cunningham, terrence jones, thon maker, gary payton, axel toupane, and dj wilson.

I am talking to a guy who views Axel Toupane as a Jason Kidd failure story.

[ackypoo]

I just want to be clear about what you're saying. You accept that no player has left Jason Kidd and made something of himself under another coach and you're implying that it's because Kidd "damaged" these players? Look at the players who left the Bucks. You're going to say Damien Inglis' name like he really could've been somebody if only Kidd never coached him? Or MCW like he hasn't been terrible for four different teams?

Look at the success stories of Kidd's tenure. Giannis, Jabari, Middleton, Brogdon, Snell all exceeded expectations under Kidd. Even Brandon Knight played the best ball of his career under Jason Kidd. And you're going to suggest that he could've damaged players.

no. youre unclear on what i am saying. readings not your strong suit.

look at the failure stories of kidds tenure. vaughn, tyler ennis, mcw, job, wolters, jared cunningham, terrence jones, thon maker, gary payton, axel toupane, and dj wilson.

I am talking to a guy who views Axel Toupane as a Jason Kidd failure story.

sure, if thats what it takes for you to understand that its just as crazy as viewing giannis/middleton/whoever as a kidd success story.

[fansinceforever]

Why don't individual players get credit for their commitment to getting better, skill they already attained before coming here and work ethic?

Kidd is responsible for Brogdon's development? it was clear from day 1 that Brogdon was trustworthy and could score the ball.

[Pachinko_]

Brogdon is exactly the same player he was in Virginia, for years. The guy doesn't need teaching by anybody.

Jabari, FFS, has exactly one problem: he does not understand team basketball, which is the #1 job of a coach to teach. I'm not gonna blame this on Kidd because if a player doesnt get it he doesnt get it. But at the same time I'm not gonna credit Kidd for the fact that Jabari is a really good one on one offensive player. Jabari had that coming into the NBA, he was the #2 pick for a reason. But he did look then like he never had a coach in his life and he looked exactly the same 2 years later.

Giannis coming into the NBA was (for years) a PG who could shoot. Tonnes of youtubes on that. Again, I'm not gonna blame Kidd for the fact that his shooting got **** a little bit because it was clear that Giannis focused on other things. But I'm also not gonna credit Kidd that giannis became a physical monster, or for the handles and vision that he already had.

I'm not blaming Kidd for individual players (who all have individual development coaches anyway), I'm blaming him for the defensive scheme and the stagnated offense. If that's not a coach's job then I don't know what is.

[FlagsFlyForever]

Why don't individual players get credit for their commitment to getting better, skill they already attained before coming here and work ethic?

Kidd is responsible for Brogdon's development? it was clear from day 1 that Brogdon was trustworthy and could score the ball.

Kidd isn't solely responsible for anybody's development. As in he can't make something out of nothing. But if a player has talent, Kidd has proven he will be able to bring it out of them. Brogdon, Giannis, etc. all deserve credit for their role in becoming the players they are today.