3rd Annual Fire Kidd Thread - Volume 2 (Horst Interview pg 14)

[fansinceforever]

Why don't individual players get credit for their commitment to getting better, skill they already attained before coming here and work ethic?

Kidd is responsible for Brogdon's development? it was clear from day 1 that Brogdon was trustworthy and could score the ball.

Kidd isn't solely responsible for anybody's development. As in he can't make something out of nothing. But if a player has talent, Kidd has proven he will be able to bring it out of them. Brogdon, Giannis, etc. all deserve credit for their role in becoming the players they are today.

fair, although Giannis would've gotten to where he is on any team. Do our last 3 first round picks have talent?

[FlagsFlyForever]

Why don't individual players get credit for their commitment to getting better, skill they already attained before coming here and work ethic?

Kidd is responsible for Brogdon's development? it was clear from day 1 that Brogdon was trustworthy and could score the ball.

Kidd isn't solely responsible for anybody's development. As in he can't make something out of nothing. But if a player has talent, Kidd has proven he will be able to bring it out of them. Brogdon, Giannis, etc. all deserve credit for their role in becoming the players they are today.

fair, although Giannis would've gotten to where he is on any team. Do our last 3 first round picks have talent?

The question is do you think these players would be any good playing for another coach? In my opinion, no. I think they were terrible draft picks which is consistent with what I thought when they were drafted. But others may disagree.

[ackypoo]

Kidd isn't solely responsible for anybody's development. As in he can't make something out of nothing. But if a player has talent, Kidd has proven he will be able to bring it out of them. Brogdon, Giannis, etc. all deserve credit for their role in becoming the players they are today.

fair, although Giannis would've gotten to where he is on any team. Do our last 3 first round picks have talent?

The question is do you think these players would be any good playing for another coach? In my opinion, no. I think they were terrible draft picks which is consistent with what I thought when they were drafted. But others may disagree.

of course, because it supports your argument.

[paulpressey25]

Here is a link to the WSSP podcast from the show yesterday where they were talking about Kidd.

http://www.1057fmthefan.com/media/audio-channel/2pm-are-bucks-wasting-giannis

I found the segment entertaining. The most enjoyable part was when Ramie said he was having a hard time on twitter keeping track of his tweet replies since everyone coming at him had the #firekidd avatar.

On the substance, those guys spent more time discussing the topic of whether or not Kidd helped Giannis. I'm less interested in that one because we're already long past that bus stop. I think Kidd did help Giannis become a man. But now it's time to get Giannis a coach that has structure and a GM that gets him help.

[Black_Dragon]

Where do the Bucks rank on the 'Most frustrated fanbase that have a right to be frustrated because they should have a better record' rankings?

Top 5 have to be MKE, OKC, Portland, Washington, New Orleans?? in no particular order.

[DingleJerry]

I don't think saying that a player also failing after leaving here necessarily proves they had no talent, or at least is not directly correlated. Basically if their most formative development years were botched, it's not surprising that they can't fix themselves as soon as they go somewhere else. Especially when they're now older and less of a priority for a new team. Now, that also doesn't mean they'd have for sure developed better elsewhere either. You really don't know when it comes to these borderline developmental type of guys.

[Ron Swanson]

Here is a link to the WSSP podcast from the show yesterday where they were talking about Kidd.

http://www.1057fmthefan.com/media/audio-channel/2pm-are-bucks-wasting-giannis

I found the segment entertaining. The most enjoyable part was when Ramie said he was having a hard time on twitter keeping track of his tweet replies since everyone coming at him had the #firekidd avatar.

On the substance, those guys spent more time discussing the topic of whether or not Kidd helped Giannis. I'm less interested in that one because we're already long past that bus stop. I think Kidd did help Giannis become a man. But now it's time to get Giannis a coach that has structure and a GM that gets him help.

This. Let's concede for a moment that it's true. That Kidd was instrumental in how Giannis developed into the player that he is today. How that has any bearing on whether or not he's the coach that can take you to the next level seems to be a question that's ignored by the local radio schlubs.

The guy that gets you to the precipice isn't always the guy that puts you over the edge. You don't get Larry Brown to coach a young, rebuilding team. And you don't get Sam Hinkie to be the GM of an older roster looking to contend in a 2-3 year window. Coaches and GM's have their specialities, strengths, and weaknesses just like players do.

[Giannisland 34]

If Kidd is getting credit for Giannis and/or Brogdon’s development. Or Snell’s/ Parker’s for that matter. This being his greatest trait as a coach as well. Then the developement and use/bringing up of Vaughn, MCW, Thon, Wilson are also on Kidd. Vaughn has showed improvement through the years but got his most playing time as a 19y/o rookie. Thon has been playing out of position since the beginning. He’s a PF until he develops physically. Not hard to see he’s physically out matched. So how’s that helping him grow and develope? I’d think it’s doing the opposite. Wilson is terrible and whoever pushed to pick him shouldn’t have anymore say in personal decisions. And MCW. Where’s his development? Wasn’t he a Kidd clone? Hand picked by Kidd? Besides what was given up to get MCW. How big of a failure in player developement needs to be pointed out to say Kidd is not good at developement overall? Or if developement is his greatest trait as a coach shouldn’t there be better/more developement from more/all players? And not this many failures? Or at least the positives should out weigh the failures. Right?

[DingleJerry]

I keep seeing this Thon is a 4 over and over and I just don't get it. He's 7'1 and has no ball skills and coordination to do anything that a modern 4 does. He also couldn't cover on the perimiter at all, which is where modern 4s play. Just because he's too weak to cover a 5 doesn't mean he's a 4, it just means he's a crappy 5.

[Giannisland 34]

So when Vaughn leaves after the season or gets thrown in on a trade. And turns into a solid bench/ rotational player. Would Kidd get credit for his development or credit for not seeing and using him correctly? Or holding back his development? Because this coming and going to happen.

[Giannisland 34]

I keep seeing this Thon is a 4 over and over and I just don't get it. He's 7'1 and has no ball skills and coordination to do anything that a modern 4 does. Just because he's too weak to cover a 5 doesn't mean he's a 4, it just means he's a crappy 5.

What Does Thon have that a modern center has? Height? Are you saying he’s to tall to be a useful 4? Because we both agree he’s not strong enough to play the 5 regularly it seems. How much have we seen Thon of the floor as the 4, with normal center? We’ve seen both amazing ball skills and coordination in his rookie year. Where did that go? Why hasn’t it developed more this year?

[DingleJerry]

I keep seeing this Thon is a 4 over and over and I just don't get it. He's 7'1 and has no ball skills and coordination to do anything that a modern 4 does. Just because he's too weak to cover a 5 doesn't mean he's a 4, it just means he's a crappy 5.

What Does Thon have that a modern center has? Height? Are you saying he’s to tall to be a useful 4? Because we both agree he’s not strong enough to play the 5 regularly it seems. How much have we seen Thon of the floor as the 4, with normal center? We’ve seen both amazing ball skills and coordination in his rookie year. Where did that go? Why hasn’t it developed more this year?

The only NBA skill he has at this point is being 7'1. that should be useful as a 5 and for rim protection, which usually comes at the 5 because the other spots are on the wing.

I have seen no ball skills whatsoever and no coordination whatsoever. He has no quick twitch lateral quickness. He couldn't dribble with anyone near him and struggles to even catch the ball. I don't know what you're watching, sorry.

[paulpressey25]

This. Let's concede for a moment that it's true. That Kidd was instrumental in how Giannis developed into the player that he is today. How that has any bearing on whether or not he's the coach that can take you to the next level seems to be a question that's ignored by the local radio schlubs.

Agreed. That said the local radio guys believe that if they do talk Bucks, their audience will want to hear "newsmakers" like Jason Kidd, Jason Terry, Jim Paschke, etc. And the station now has access to those guys courtesy of their marketing deal. So they can't **** all over them every hour on the air. It is what it is. So we've got this outpost, twitter and Locked on Bucks podcast to talk about the real issues with the team.

[sidney lanier]

The only NBA skill he has at this point is being 7'1. that should be useful as a 5 and for rim protection, which usually comes at the 5 because the other spots are on the wing.

I have seen no ball skills whatsoever and no coordination whatsoever. He has no quick twitch lateral quickness. He couldn't dribble with anyone near him and struggles to even catch the ball. I don't know what you're watching, sorry.

Gfycat Video - Click to Play

I'd make him one to nine to beat anyone on this board in a three-point-shooting contest. I think he's viable now as a park-in-the-corner catch-and-shoot stretch four along the lines of Kevin Love. He'll never have nifty moves, but he can shoot standing still, which in today's NBA can sometimes be enough.

On defense he does try to box out and sometimes succeeds. His rebounding is improving, and he'll block a shot now and then.

Thon is an odd mix of latent talents. Maybe he'll turn into Manute Bol and that's it. Maybe he'll be a Joe Smith-type midrange jump shooter, with a shot nobody can block. Maybe he'll always suck the way he sucks now.

I remain optimistic.

EDIT: One note on Manute Bol, who, like Thon was an ethnic Dinka. Bol is the only player in NBA history with more blocks than points.

[thonnisbeastley]

We can never have a serious discussion about Jason Kidd because there are people who literally refuse to say a single good thing about him. Take another look at the players you listed in order to argue against Kidd's player development ability. Vaughn, Maker, and Wilson have spent their entire careers on the Bucks. Are you going to tell me they would be good players on another team? Inglis, JOB, and MCW all left the Bucks and have done what exactly?

we will never know whether or not kidd damaged the players that left or failed to develop the players that stayed and failed.

thats the point. you dont get to give him credit for being a good developer of talent when we have just as many failures as successes, hell, more failures. you dont get to say those players just simply had talent, and kidd developed talent in giannis.

you do not get to say that.

I just want to be clear about what you're saying. You accept that no player has left Jason Kidd and made something of himself under another coach and you're implying that it's because Kidd "damaged" these players? Look at the players who left the Bucks. You're going to say Damien Inglis' name like he really could've been somebody if only Kidd never coached him? Or MCW like he hasn't been terrible for four different teams?

Look at the success stories of Kidd's tenure. Giannis, Jabari, Middleton, Brogdon, Snell all exceeded expectations under Kidd. Even Brandon Knight played the best ball of his career under Jason Kidd. And you're going to suggest that he could've damaged players.

To say that Giannis, Jabari, Middleton, Snell, and Brogdon are all success stories under Kidd is so backwards. So because Brogdon turned out to be a great player compared to where he was drafted is due to Kidd? Not because he is a 5 year college player with incredible size, intangibles, and maturity for his position? Kidd must've made him that mature and intelligent right out of the gate. Jabari who could have gone #1 in a stacked draft is only a success because of the guidance he received from Kidd? Not because he was an incredible talent right? Kidd really honed in his skills while he was hurt for a year and rehabbing with other coaches. Middleton has been much worse since coming back from injury, primarily because of the way Kidd uses him. Snell wasn't given a chance in Chicago, yet he fit in our system perfectly considering we had no 3 point shooters. Kidd must've saved his career. Giannis? Lol..it's well known how hard he works in the offseason. With other coaches. Kidd has nothing to do with that or with the fact that Giannis is a physical specimen never seen before.

Kidd definitely could have helped add some things to these players games over the years. No one is saying that is not a possibility. But look at all of the young busts as well that haven't improved at all while being here. Can't have it both ways.

The argument against Kidd isn't what has he done for each player individually in practice. The argument is that as a head coach, during the games, he is terrible. His rotations are terrible, his decision making is terrible, the way he uses players like Middleton is terrible, the fact that his assistants draw up every play and run the team for him is terrible, and his defensive system is the worst in the NBA. Hands down. This is what holds us back and what will continue to hold us back until Kidd is replaced with a competent coach who can manage a damn game and use our players to their strengths.

[M-C-G]

The argument against Kidd isn't what has he done for each player individually in practice. The argument is that as a head coach, during the games, he is terrible. His rotations are terrible, his decision making is terrible, .

Right which is why people are saying, okay concede the development portion, who cares at this point, we need a different type of coach to that can do those things to get us to the next level. Spending time debating an unanswerable question (who gets credit for Giannis) is a waste of time, so let's focus on what we need a coach to be able to do from here on out.

[DingleJerry]

The only NBA skill he has at this point is being 7'1. that should be useful as a 5 and for rim protection, which usually comes at the 5 because the other spots are on the wing.

I have seen no ball skills whatsoever and no coordination whatsoever. He has no quick twitch lateral quickness. He couldn't dribble with anyone near him and struggles to even catch the ball. I don't know what you're watching, sorry.

I'd make him one to nine to beat anyone on this board in a three-point-shooting contest. I think he's viable now as a park-in-the-corner catch-and-shoot stretch four along the lines of Kevin Love. He'll never have nifty moves, but he can shoot standing still, which in today's NBA can sometimes be enough.

On defense he does try to box out and sometimes succeeds. His rebounding is improving, and he'll block a shot now and then.

Thon is an odd mix of latent talents. Maybe he'll turn into Manute Bol and that's it. Maybe he'll be a Joe Smith-type midrange jump shooter, with a shot nobody can block. Maybe he'll always suck the way he sucks now.

I remain optimistic.

I'm optimistic too that if he can get consistent on the 3 pt shot that he can be a contributor, he's not dead yet to me. But why would you have him as a stretch 4 instead of stretch 5? Just to give him an excuse for not being able to rebound? How's he going to be able to guard modern 4s? The only 4s he'd have a shot at are the Ryan Andersons and Ilyasova type who are stationary. Most aren't like that anymore, they're basically wings.

so, to be a 4 on the Bucks who we also say Giannis shouldn't be the 5 regularly. We'd have to have a 5 out there (Henson), Giannis at 3, and thon at 4 huh. Just imagine how that would work together on O, horrible.

Long story short, the reason he was drafted is to be a stretch 5 to pair with Giannis so that the lane is open for Giannis. If we also need a 5 out there it defeats the point. You'd be miles ahead to play a 5, have Giannis at 4, and have a normal wing out there at the 3. If Thon can't rebound and protect the rim then you should just play a wing, that's the bottom line. That said, if the 3 ball becomes consistent he has a role and at least should be a contributor somehow rather than about the biggest negative in the NBA like he is now.

Also, I'd be confident with one month notice I'd beat him at a 3 pt contest, haha.

[Giannisland 34]

I keep seeing this Thon is a 4 over and over and I just don't get it. He's 7'1 and has no ball skills and coordination to do anything that a modern 4 does. Just because he's too weak to cover a 5 doesn't mean he's a 4, it just means he's a crappy 5.

What Does Thon have that a modern center has? Height? Are you saying he’s to tall to be a useful 4? Because we both agree he’s not strong enough to play the 5 regularly it seems. How much have we seen Thon of the floor as the 4, with normal center? We’ve seen both amazing ball skills and coordination in his rookie year. Where did that go? Why hasn’t it developed more this year?

The only NBA skill he has at this point is being 7'1. that should be useful as a 5 and for rim protection, which usually comes at the 5 because the other spots are on the wing.

I have seen no ball skills whatsoever and no coordination whatsoever. He has no quick twitch lateral quickness. He couldn't dribble with anyone near him and struggles to even catch the ball. I don't know what you're watching, sorry.

Going back to his rookie year again. He crossed over and made his defender fall down. That takes some balls skills and confidence. To be able to do that in the NBA. Plus the coordination to stay with Lowry to the baseline in the playoffs. Those are by far the two best examples of what his ball skills and coordination could be. But doesn’t seem like you’ve seen those because both were pretty amazing for a guy his size. So maybe your not watching everything or biased or you didn’t read everything fully on what I stated.

[DingleJerry]

What Does Thon have that a modern center has? Height? Are you saying he’s to tall to be a useful 4? Because we both agree he’s not strong enough to play the 5 regularly it seems. How much have we seen Thon of the floor as the 4, with normal center? We’ve seen both amazing ball skills and coordination in his rookie year. Where did that go? Why hasn’t it developed more this year?

The only NBA skill he has at this point is being 7'1. that should be useful as a 5 and for rim protection, which usually comes at the 5 because the other spots are on the wing.

I have seen no ball skills whatsoever and no coordination whatsoever. He has no quick twitch lateral quickness. He couldn't dribble with anyone near him and struggles to even catch the ball. I don't know what you're watching, sorry.

Going back to his rookie year again. He crossed over and made his defender fall down. That takes some balls skills and confidence. To be able to do that in the NBA. Plus the coordination to stay with Lowry to the baseline in the playoffs. Those are by far the two best examples of what his ball skills and coordination could be. But doesn’t seem like you’ve seen those because both were pretty amazing for a guy his size. So maybe your not watching everything or biased or you didn’t read everything fully on what I stated.

I know the plays you mentioned. But I also watch the whole NBA and know what everyone in this league can do so that's really not that big of a deal, and don't think pulling something off once is any big deal. Yea his D switching on Lowry had us all intrigued, that's for sure. And having a big who can adequately switch to a wing/G and hold his own is much different than being able to guard wings all the time. He needs to rebound and protect the rim or you might as well play a wing who will be able to gaurd wings better, dribble better, pass better, shoot better, move laterally better, etc. BTW, did you see what happens to him vs TOR this year and the last few games of that series last year?

Do you see him get the ball in our high elbow spot and get it literally taken from his hands multiple times this year? and that's being guarded by a big, not a wing with better quickness and hands. He gets completely lost when put in any screen action, that will be compounded the further from the hoop he goes.

[SirChurros]

Let's be real, Thon didn't make anyone fall over with his crossover. He stepped on Birdman's foot.