GT: Pistons (21-18) vs Nets (15-25) - Wednesday, 1/10/18, 7:30pm

[MrDollarBills]

I see it took all of what... a week.... for people to turn on Okafor?

after people bashing kenny and marks for not playing him right away?

predictable.

this game is a throw away. nothing worked no energy, etc....

dudes were on here bitching for weeks about him not playing and as predicted, they turn on him immediately after 3-4 games. it's embarrassing to read this stuff.

[MGrand15]

I see it took all of what... a week.... for people to turn on Okafor?

after people bashing kenny and marks for not playing him right away?

predictable.

this game is a throw away. nothing worked no energy, etc....

dudes were on here bitching for weeks about him not playing and as predicted, they turn on him immediately after 3-4 games. it's embarrassing to read this stuff.

Or we can ask basic questions about his potential and how much the team is invested in him based on what we've seen from him.

We don't have to wait for Kenny to comment on Okafor's day to day progress.

Or - this might be a wild comment - the people bringing up Okafor questions weren't excited about him to begin with.

[MrDollarBills]

I see it took all of what... a week.... for people to turn on Okafor?

after people bashing kenny and marks for not playing him right away?

predictable.

this game is a throw away. nothing worked no energy, etc....

dudes were on here bitching for weeks about him not playing and as predicted, they turn on him immediately after 3-4 games. it's embarrassing to read this stuff.

Or we can ask basic questions about his potential and how much the team is invested in him based on what we've seen from him.

We don't have to wait for Kenny to comment on Okafor's day to day progress.

Or - this might be a wild comment - the people bringing up Okafor questions weren't excited about him to begin with.

Well, no one said you had to wait for Kenny to do anything or that you can't question what his potential is. Also, no one said that you couldn't be skeptical of him either.

I'm just laughing at how people wanted him rushed onto the floor and within a week it's time to give up on him

[CalamityX12]

didn't see the game, see the box score, thats a big plus for development i'm sure.

I guess it be pointless to ask how our young guns did....

what happened with Rental? what did he do or didn't?

[TheBrooklynKidd]

the thing is, your tune changes depending on what a player does per game it seems like. you wanted to trade dinwiddie because he had some struggles for a few games, which should be expected from young PGs, especially one who is really only in his 2nd year of having a stable role on an NBA team. then all of a sudden when that potential rears its ugly head, and you say this after the Minnesota game:



i'm supposed to take your comments about Rondae seriously when you were quiet AF about him before that and for most of the season? he's one of the most improved players in the league FFS.

This is why I said what I said, not to dis or insult you personally, but just pointing out that you wait until something bad happens to make claims such as "trade dinwiddie!" or "RHJ is a bench player". i can't take your hot takes seriously bro, you talk a lot of crazy **** when things go wrong but when it doesn't you save the above quote?

You say that he gets destroyed every game against bigger players? You also said that he's like the smallest PF in the league. how many games has he really been destroyed in dude? definitely not last game. seems like the games he gets "destroyed" in are the games when the Nets as a whole play like trash. do you want to correlate that to just RHJ versus his bigger opponent? because RHJ has faced some pretty big dudes and we've came away with W's.

by the way, every single one of the people who repeated the claim of RHJ being a bench player has shut up. like they are literally silent about that issue on here. wouldn't shock me if by March if you join that list.

You should be less angry and get off your high horse. You act like you’ve never had a hot take or criticized someone and come to appreciate them. Luckily I’m not petty enough to go back and look for your comments.

Anyways back to the topic of RHJ. I said that he would be better either guarding 3s or coming off the bench if we can’t find a bigger 4 that can shoot. His size is an issue. if you don’t remember last game, Valunciunas was tearing us up and while that’s also a problem with our C position I think that the fact that we’re starting a dude who’s 6’5 without shoes at PF contributes to the problem. There’s just no one to challenge these guys at the rim outside of Jarrett Allen.

Our lack of size is our biggest issue. I like Rondae a lot as a player and just because I think he should be used differently doesn’t mean I think he sucks. I think he’s definitely a starter quality player but plenty of starter quality players come off the bench for fit reasons. I just don’t think we should be expecting him to guard bigger dudes night in and night out.

Recently he’s had issues with Marcus Morris, Aaron Gordon and now Tobias Harris. He’s also had issues with LMA, Davis etc. now those guys are stars and everyone struggles but Rondae’s lack of height and general strength hurts this team against bigs that can score. It also hurts us in the rim protection department as well.

My criticisms of RHJ are very specific and completely justified. Im not hating or calling him a “bench player”

Dude you wait until someone is struggling to come out and say these things but then double back immediatly when the player bounces back, it's hilarious. You did this same exact thing with Dinwiddie and sure, I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong. I also don't toss players under the bus after a bad game and use that as a reason to cap their potential, say that they are bench players, or say that they should be traded for little value in return.

Yeah i'll give you some news here buddy take a look at the game logs for Aaron Gordon, Harris, LMA, Davis etc and you'll see that every other PF in the league has had issues versus those dudes. Guys that are bigger than RHJ. What's their excuse?

I find it funny how you want to say RHJ had issues versus Marcus Morris but you didn't have anything to say when he dropped 22 and 12 versus that same player back on New Years Eve. But again, you pick and choose when to throw this stuff out there so not surprising.

Anyway, i respectfully disagree, you're trying to frame some dishonest narrative that RHJ gets destroyed every game when that's a flat out lie, but I'll leave that opinion to be left in its own space to be dissected as the season continues. Also, once you start to confuse someone contesting your opinion as "anger", it's not worth going further because it is clear that you are taking disagreement personally.

I call it anger cause you gotta feel some type of way to write multiple paragraphs and go back through other threads looking for comments.

It’s not a flat out lie. He struggles against dudes that are bigger than him and it’s obvious. There’s nothing wrong with that, plenty of people do. He struggles defending the rim in general Because he can’t get up high enough to contest shots.

It doesn’t matter what he does offensively at the postion. I didn’t criticize him on that end did I? All I said was hey I don’t really see him as the PF of the future cause he struggles guarding bigs and you lost your mind

Also I haven’t doubled back on anything. Dinwiddie is still super flawed. I had legitimate reasons to trade him and then his Minnesota game showed me something I didn’t think he was capable of. There’s nothing wrong with changing your mind about trading someone after an incredible game saving performance.

I don’t know why everyone is so sensitive about a criticism that you can say about most guys in the NBA. RHJ isn’t some flawless defensive player, he struggles against dudes that are taller than him and have 20-30 pounds on him like everyone in the NBA does. The difference is that we’re asking him to do that every single night.

And this team does get destroyed by bigs. Literally all the time. Why can’t you admit that maybe just maybe our “big men”, including RHJ, are part of the problem?

Also this isn’t something new. I’ve talked about this teams need for size at the forward positions multiple times. A lot of the dudes I’ve talked about trading for: Hernangomez, Lyles, Mirotic etc. were suggested with the goal of trying to get RHJ some help out there and a bigger body to help against bigger guys but also fit with him on the offensive end.

[TheBrooklynKidd]

So who are these guys. Get some evidence to back up your opinion. I’ve given you stats to show that RHJ has either been as good or better than his opponent in 6 out of the last 7 games. Where is your evidence? Or are you just pulling your argument out of your ass?

Griffin, Aldridge, Gordon, Porzingis, Davis, Love, Millsap and that’s just the guys who are exclusively Power Forwards off the top of my head. There are plenty of combo bigs and combo forwards who are bigger than him as well and a bunch of young up and coming scorers.

Do I need to continue?

Brilliant. Lets break down some of these matchups since RHJ moved to the starting power forward spot on March 1 last year (I'll put his opponents per game numbers in brackets for comparison).

RHJ v Blake Griffin:
RHJ has not started at pf in a game against Blake Griffin, ever.

RHJ v LaMarcus Aldridge (23ppg, 9rpg)
12/26/2017: RHJ - 13, 6 and 3, Aldridge - 20, 9 and 2

RHJ v Aaron Gordon (19ppg, 8rpg)
04/01/2017: RHJ - 2, 6, 3, Gordon - 22, 15, 5
04/06/2017: RHJ - 6, 5, 4, Gordon - 21, 5, 2
10/24/2017: RHJ - 18, 5, 2, Gordon - 41, 14, 2 (RHJ +10, Gordon +7)
01/01/2018: RHJ - 13, 7, 1, Gordon - 20, 12 (both players scored 4 points in the 4th quarter)

RHJ v Porzingis (24ppg, 7rpg)
03/12/2017: RHJ - 14, 11, Porzingis - 19, 10, 4 (RHJ 6/8 shooting, Zinger 7/16)
10/27/2017: RHJ - 6, 3, Porzingis 30, 9
12/14/2017: RHJ - 25, 7, 3, 4, 2, Porzingis - 13, 2, 4 (Zinger got hurt and played 18 minutes)

RHJ vs Anthony Davis (26ppg, 10rpg)
12/27/2017: RHJ - 15, 7, 4, Davis - 33, 11, 2

RHJ v Kevin Love (19ppg, 10rpg)
10/25/2017: RHJ - 19, 6, 2, Love - 15, 12 (RHJ 5/12 shooting, Love 4/13)
11/22/2017: RHJ - 20, 6, 2, Love - 18, 10, 3 (RHJ 8/11 shooting, Love 7/17)

RHJ v Paul Millsap (15ppg, 6rpg)
03/08/2017: RHJ - 6, 2, 3, Millsap - 24, 4, 3
04/02/2017: RHJ - 11, 5, 2, Millsap - 14, 4, 2 (RHJ 4/8 shooting, Millsap 4/14 *Millsap did not start but played 26 minutes)
10/29/2017: RHJ - 18, 6, 1, Millsap - 13, 11, 5 (RHJ 8/12 shooting, Millsap 5/14)

So there you have it. He has never started opposite Griffin so how can you possibly say he can't handle him, you're just guessing there. Aldridge was better. He has struggled against Gordon in the past although he probably held him to a draw in their last match up. He has been slightly better than Zinger once, well outplayed once and held him to a draw the 3rd time. Davis wiped the floor with him. He has been better than Kevin Love both times they have played and has been better than Millsap 2 out of their 3 match ups.

Of the 30 starting power forwards in the league, you named 7 who he cannot handle because he is too small. Head to head he has never played one of them, has outplayed 2 of them, held Zinger the unicorn to a draw and only been significantly outplayed by LMA, AD and Aaron Gordon. How is he too small to be a starting PF again?

You just listed a bunch of good offensive games, a couple of average ones and a bunch of Dominant ones all against your supposedly flawless RHJ. And it’s not only 7 like I said there’s plenty of other dudes I didn’t mention off the top of my head and plenty of up and comers. Are really gonna go through and list the raw numbers from every matchup as opposed to looking at stats.nba.com or basketballreference and seeing that his defensive stats lag behind many of his peers?

Not to mention the fact that you didn’t address my center point or team defense point. Both are parts of the game where he’s been struggling. Mainly because he can’t consistently and effectively contest shots when people can just rise over him and push him around.

Also I don’t understand why you keep trying to bring up his offense. My whole point was that he struggles guarding these guys. Whether or not he’s able to score on them is irrelevant to my very specific criticism. I’m a big fan of him at the 4 on the offensive end but on defense I truly think we need to pair him with a bigger forward if spacing allows. He shouldn’t have to struggle to guard guys who are taller and heavier than him every game. It’s really not unreasonable to suggest we get him help to guard the bigger 4s and you’re proving my argument by listing these dudes. I don’t understand why this is so offensive to you.

[Prokorov]

The stats don’t back up your all-nba claim and neither does the eye test.

We get killed by big men for multiple reasons including the fact that the team is undersized. The team is undersized cause we’re playing a barely 6’7 guy at PF.

All I’m saying is that he’s part of the problem and we need to add a taller guy at one of the forward positions. IMO RHJ remains a PF on the offensive end, we just need another guy with length on the team to help him out on the defensive end.

Centers kill us... not PFs. He has been unreal defensively. by far the best defense he has played in his young career. our centers have been straight up trash. in fact, Acy and RHJ have been our 2 best defensive centers when they have played their. Allen looks great btu still allows tons of layups... needs some more experience and bulk.

he is not part of the problem, he is one of the few guys who is part o the solution. he may be the best defensive PF in the NBA by this time next year. He isnt far off draymond... basically just some bulk

[Prokorov]

The stats don’t back up your all-nba claim and neither does the eye test.

We get killed by big men for multiple reasons including the fact that the team is undersized. The team is undersized cause we’re playing a barely 6’7 guy at PF.

All I’m saying is that he’s part of the problem and we need to add a taller guy at one of the forward positions. IMO RHJ remains a PF on the offensive end, we just need another guy with length on the team to help him out on the defensive end.

RHJ is a top defender in his position. He also is a top scorer in the post. I think he's top 5 last I checked offensively in the post.

He's really not the problem.

He’s not a top defender at his position though.

I never said he was the whole problem I said he was part of the problem and everyone loses their minds because apparently people can’t take criticisms of their players. It’s really not absurd to suggest that a 6’7 220 guy struggles to guard bigs in the NBA.

1) he doesnt struggle to defend bigs. he is borderline elite at it

2) there are few "bigs" in general. the avg PF is 6'8" in todays league

3) he has actually played better at C then PF although its a super small sample

your irrational hate of RHJ needs to be curbed

[Prokorov]

He’s not a top defender at his position though.

I never said he was the whole problem I said he was part of the problem and everyone loses their minds because apparently people can’t take criticisms of their players. It’s really not absurd to suggest that a 6’7 220 guy struggles to guard bigs in the NBA.

Kelly Olynyk is big. Taj Gibson is big. Serge Ibaka is big. I thought he only struggled to guard scoring bigs?

When you nitpick comments made to other people about me not being specific enough it shows that you’re mad

this is the pot calling the kettle black.

your jsut mad cause your statement got thrown back in your face. who are all these "big" PFs dominating RHJ?

[Prokorov]

stay angry bro.

There’s been plenty of times this season where bigger players have gone at him and he’s struggled. Especially when he gets switched onto Centers or is forced to be a help defender at the rim. I said that he struggled against scoring PFs. Listing Kelly Olynyk, Ibaka and Taj Gibson doesn’t prove anything.

So what you’re saying is, power forwards who are good at scoring against almost everyone are also good at scoring against our 3rd year guy. Cool story, bro.

I’m saying that he struggles guarding talented offensive players who are bigger than him like lots of guys in the NBA do.

Why is that so ridiculous?

1) because its false.

2) because its false.

[Prokorov]

When you nitpick comments made to other people about me not being specific enough it shows that you’re mad

I just find the enormous number of holes in your argument funny.

But there’s no holes. You just got mad cause I didn’t specifically say “scoring” before “bigs” in a conversation with another person

He is mad because you are being a giant passive aggressive troll

[TheBrooklynKidd]

The stats don’t back up your all-nba claim and neither does the eye test.

We get killed by big men for multiple reasons including the fact that the team is undersized. The team is undersized cause we’re playing a barely 6’7 guy at PF.

All I’m saying is that he’s part of the problem and we need to add a taller guy at one of the forward positions. IMO RHJ remains a PF on the offensive end, we just need another guy with length on the team to help him out on the defensive end.

Centers kill us... not PFs. He has been unreal defensively. by far the best defense he has played in his young career. our centers have been straight up trash. in fact, Acy and RHJ have been our 2 best defensive centers when they have played their. Allen looks great btu still allows tons of layups... needs some more experience and bulk.

he is not part of the problem, he is one of the few guys who is part o the solution. he may be the best defensive PF in the NBA by this time next year. He isnt far off draymond... basically just some bulk

I think we’re gonna have to agree to disagree man. Guarding big men is a team effort but mainly handled by the 4 and the 5. We can’t just blame the centers when we’re clearly undersized and RHJ is the main reason for that.

I really hope he can bulk up. Contrary to what people think I love RHJs game and I know he’s by far our best defensive player. I just don’t feel comfortable on the defensive end if he’s the 2nd biggest guy on the court. I’d like to pair him with a stretch forward who’s 6’10 or bigger to counteract his lack of rim protection and shooting. Like the Warriors did with Durant and Draymond.

[TheBrooklynKidd]

Kelly Olynyk is big. Taj Gibson is big. Serge Ibaka is big. I thought he only struggled to guard scoring bigs?

When you nitpick comments made to other people about me not being specific enough it shows that you’re mad

this is the pot calling the kettle black.

your jsut mad cause your statement got thrown back in your face. who are all these "big" PFs dominating RHJ?

Lol he just listed them look at it he tried to pull up box scores to refute my point but ended up proving it

[TheBrooklynKidd]

I just find the enormous number of holes in your argument funny.

But there’s no holes. You just got mad cause I didn’t specifically say “scoring” before “bigs” in a conversation with another person

He is mad because you are being a giant passive aggressive troll

ok bro whatever you say

[Prokorov]

I see it took all of what... a week.... for people to turn on Okafor?

after people bashing kenny and marks for not playing him right away?

predictable.

this game is a throw away. nothing worked no energy, etc....

dudes were on here bitching for weeks about him not playing and as predicted, they turn on him immediately after 3-4 games. it's embarrassing to read this stuff.

Or we can ask basic questions about his potential and how much the team is invested in him based on what we've seen from him.

We don't have to wait for Kenny to comment on Okafor's day to day progress.

Or - this might be a wild comment - the people bringing up Okafor questions weren't excited about him to begin with.

I know you werent high on the okafor train.... but the same people who were killing atkinson for not playing him are now saying the trade was a failure or okafor sucks.

[Prokorov]

I think we’re gonna have to agree to disagree man. Guarding big men is a team effort but mainly handled by the 4 and the 5. We can’t just blame the centers when we’re clearly undersized and RHJ is the main reason for that.

it is a team effort. unfortunetly our Centers have been horrible. RHJ has been lights out. even though he is a midget

I really hope he can bulk up. Contrary to what people think I love RHJs game and I know he’s by far our best defensive player. I just don’t feel comfortable on the defensive end if he’s the 2nd biggest guy on the court. I’d like to pair him with a stretch forward who’s 6’10 or bigger to counteract his lack of rim protection and shooting. Like the Warriors did with Durant and Draymond.

im not sure why you dont feel comfortable given he is one of the best defensive PFs in the league and if he struggles its with quickness not size. he is much better defending bigs then smalls

Draymond was elite defensively long before durant was a warrior.

[TheBrooklynKidd]

I think we’re gonna have to agree to disagree man. Guarding big men is a team effort but mainly handled by the 4 and the 5. We can’t just blame the centers when we’re clearly undersized and RHJ is the main reason for that.

it is a team effort. unfortunetly our Centers have been horrible. RHJ has been lights out. even though he is a midget

I really hope he can bulk up. Contrary to what people think I love RHJs game and I know he’s by far our best defensive player. I just don’t feel comfortable on the defensive end if he’s the 2nd biggest guy on the court. I’d like to pair him with a stretch forward who’s 6’10 or bigger to counteract his lack of rim protection and shooting. Like the Warriors did with Durant and Draymond.

im not sure why you dont feel comfortable given he is one of the best defensive PFs in the league and if he struggles its with quickness not size. he is much better defending bigs then smalls

Draymond was elite defensively long before durant was a warrior.

It’s a team effort guarding big men and Rondae as our main big man is a huge part of that effort. Unfortunately we’ve been struggling and I don’t think it’s ridiculous to suggest there’s multiple problems here, one of them being RHJs size.

He’s not elite defensively. If he was elite defensively he’d have elite defensive statistics like Draymond.

And Rondae has been lights out and incredibly impressive on the offensive end but I’ve actually been a little disappointed with his defense.

I don’t feel comfortable because he can’t challenge the rim or switch onto Centers like you need your PF to do. Bigger players shoot over him constantly and he plays a position where everyone is bigger than him.

[MGrand15]

I think there's a real debate on whether Rondae can be a starter on a championship level team since he's not a classic stretch 4 or rim protector. But I think a lot of that depends on team make up and his improvement going forward. I think he brings more than enough to the table to make up for his weaknesses. I'll worry about it when were in the conference finals.

Not concerned about his defense at all though. He's playing next to a lot of weak defensive centers and inexperienced guards.