GT #41: Jazz @ Wizards - Wed Jan 10th - 7 PM

[payitforward]

Its just not possible that we trade Wall ...anytime soon.
The good news is he is drawing fouls, converting at the rim, playing better defense than he has the last couple years, and is hitting the 3 ball... Fact is, only FT shooting and long 2's are the only percentages that are down. I have faith his FT's will climb a little, and couldnt care less about his long 2's as long as he takes less of them.

Really? Lets see...

Per 40 minutes:
Offensive rebounds are down from last year.
Defensive rebounds are down from last year.
Points are down from last year.
Steals are down from last year.
2 pt. % is down from last year.
FT% is down -- way down! -- from last year.
eFG% is down from last year.
TS% is down from last year.
Even FTs are slightly down from last year.

In other words, no he is not "drawing fouls" -- if by that you mean more than, or even as much as, last year. No, he's not "converting at the rim," if by that you mean he's scoring better from 2-point range, & no, "FT shooting and long 2's are the only percentages that are down" is not correct.

But, 3pt. % is up from last year, so I guess we are supposed to concentrate on that, pay no attention to everything else or to his overall effectiveness, b/c "having faith" will take care of those problems.

Only... please explain: why? Why should we we ignore the bad stuff? Why should we not care if his shooting effectiveness -- never a strong point -- is down? Why are the few exceptions to this set of downward changes more important than the overall unquestionable downward change in his play?

[payitforward]

...as for building around those three, (i.e. Beal, Porter & Oubre) no thanks because honestly, I don't think they are good enough to build around.

I'd rather tank then be mediocre (maybe) with those three.

We've built around Wall for almost 8 years now, & we are mediocre right now. We've been to the playoffs 3 times & never gotten out of the 2d round.

Our strength of schedule has been below average, but there are 8 teams out of 30 with better records than ours & another 4 within 1 game of us.

What would make you think John Wall is "good enough to build around?"

If "good enough" means that he is a key player, the kind of guy whose presence means you can become a championship contender, then nothing I've seen makes me think he's "good enough to build around."

Don't get me wrong. John Wall is a very good player; he's having an off year so far, but he is a very good player all the same.

Still, last year was his best year, & he wasn't as good as Chris Paul. He wasn't as good as James Harden. He wasn't as good as Russell Westbrook. He wasn't as good as Mike Conley. He wasn't as good as Isaiah Thomas. He wasn't as good as Kyle Lowry. He wasn't as good as Steph Curry.

I guess that would put him in the top 25% of NBA starting point guards. In his best year. Does that make him someone you can build a championship team around?

Why? Because you say so? Excuse me, but who are you?

[CobraCommander]

Is it really?

You have been crapping on Wall non stop.

And I don't mean normal criticism either.

Honestly, if I didn't know anything about the NBA and I was just reading your posts about John, I'd think he was a 2nd-string point guard...maybe.

It all came into clear focus during the playoffs last season.

When Wall was carrying us during the Hawks series (while others were M.I.A) you were mighty quiet. It was noticeable. But interestingly enough, when John had his struggles against Boston you got mighty talkative all of a sudden.

It's a pattern with you and I don't think I'm the only one who has noticed.

It's like you're literally WAITING for John to make a mistake (missed shot, bad pass etc) just so you can point it out.

And why it stands out is you have a habit of defending others players mistakes/poor play.

Its interesting that people are concerned about John's impending contract when I'm actually more concerned with the 106m we gave Otto.

I was one of the biggest Otto fans on this board when he was coming out of college (took some heat for it too) but I just can't fathom paying this kind of money to someone this passive.

Yes, he's a great shooter etc, when actually he SHOOTS ..which he seems reluctant to do.

And before you use the "Wall needs to pass him the ball more" line , well Otto had his opportunity to step up in John's absence and I wasn't particularly impressed.

I don't want to move any of the BIG 3 but if I HAD to Otto would be the guy.

That just isn’t true. I was praising Wall after game 6 of the hawks series which was the best game of his career. I praise Wall when he plays like he is capable of playing, which isn’t often in the last two years because of his awful defensive effort.

I don’t even know what to say to the rest of that post. Trade Otto? Our best player who is 24? The one that isn’t signed to a Supermax?

Sure you gave him credit. Just like you said you wanted to trade John for CP3 & Capela but everyone “laughed at you” for the thought of that idea, correct? You’re hilarious.

I remember you blaming Brooks for OTTO shooting like crap & getting burned by Taurean Prince during the Hawks series. You know you blame John when he makes even the tiniest of mistake, but go missing when Otto makes mistakes/shoots like crap. You was the same with Beal, but it seems you have started faulting him for his own shortcomings this season. I’m not Wall “fanboy” or “stan” because I will also call out his faults, but never to the lengths of you do & I will actually point out all the great things he does unlike you. You just have an unhealthy obsession with faulting the dude for everything & it’s really sad on your part.

Let’s not forget that Brad has said some stupid s*** just like John so he’s not blameless. The “Cavs avoided us in the playoffs” & “Best team in the East” comments. I’d even go as far to say that Brad has been more wreckless with his mouth than John has this season. John might not be the best of leader, but Brad damn sure isn’t either.

Interesting....i watched the game, logged off, went to sleep, saw Stephen A Smith RIP the Beal and the wiz, came back to this thread and found that the Trade Wall Debate was reignited after he had 35, 6 and 11- a ton of turn overs and the wiz lost the game when Beal was classically unclutch. Interesting indeed.

I think NATP4 is like most of us, frustrated. I like most of us, feel like NATP4 is giving too much blame to Wall and not giving equivalent blame to the other MAXED players on the squad. I dont understand NatP4s motives but he has at least been consistent about his disdain for Walls game. I unlike most of you *I suspect*, dont feel like trading Wall or Beal is the answer. I dont think we will get better in my lifetime by getting rid of our best player and only allstar in the last 4 years OR trading our only player that is even REMOTELY TRENDING TOWARDS ever being an AllStar unless we got equivalent trade value back...and that NEVER/Rarely happens in the NBA. To make it seem like Walls contract is bad seems idiotic when without him we are barely a playoff team. The market demands that we pay Wall Max, just like it did for Beal and Otto. If the wiz start being the bullets of the years without Gil or Wall...I’m not watching because there are too many other things to do in my life then watch a team REBUILD FOR TEN YEARs...(see redskins attendance and fan interest for evidence). I’m not gonna try to wave the Pom poms for wall because that was one of the ugliest 35, 6 and 11s ever posted. I’m not gonna wave the Pom poms for beal either....HE ISNT CLUTCH and isnt as good as Wall- not yet. I’m not gonna wave the Pom poms for Otto at all. I think Otto is getting a major pass because he is seen as a good citizen and a glue guy...but OTTO is on a MAX contract just like wall and beal and should be held to the same standard we held wall and beal to when they got their deals. A max deal in my mind means we are paying you as much as the market will allow because you are the best that the market has to offer (this ain’t MBA stuff...its eco/biz 101) and for that I demand the best that the MARKET has to offer. JW, Brad and Otto have fell far short of that as a core. This isnt about one player...this is about the unit. The coaching the players and the front office. Its not all doom and gloom but I dont think this squad gets any better unless the either get a more dynamic coach or ADD a significant player without losing Wall or Beal.

You are not gonna compete in this league without awesome talent or awesome coaching...the wiz dont have enough of either.

You cant fix any one thing with this team and think we will be anything other than mediocre.

BTW- this feels like a L but its actually a W-

The fact that SAS is calling out the wizards for under achieving is news because if the nation didn’t see the true potential with the wiz then they would look at us like all the other teams in mid markets with crappy teams. There is potential here...which is better than being in a TRUE perpetual rebuilding process like Orlando post Shaq... we gotta hope that EG goes and gets us some talent before the deadline, Wall gets healthy, Brad gets clutch, Otto plays to the level of his contract (F everyone that says contract doesn’t matter about OTTO while at the same time trying to trade JW for having a MAX deal...hypocrisy!!!!!) and that Brooks steps up his coaching.

My first question would be...do we need a new coach? Someone that actually pushes proper defensive play. The true difference between the Celtics/good teams and the Wiz...defensive scheme?

[Wizardspride]

...as for building around those three, (i.e. Beal, Porter & Oubre) no thanks because honestly, I don't think they are good enough to build around.

I'd rather tank then be mediocre (maybe) with those three.

We've built around Wall for almost 8 years now, & we are mediocre right now. We've been to the playoffs 3 times & never gotten out of the 2d round.

Our strength of schedule has been below average, but there are 8 teams out of 30 with better records than ours & another 4 within 1 game of us.

What would make you think John Wall is "good enough to build around?"

If "good enough" means that he is a key player, the kind of guy whose presence means you can become a championship contender, then nothing I've seen makes me think he's "good enough to build around."

Don't get me wrong. John Wall is a very good player; he's having an off year so far, but he is a very good player all the same.

Still, last year was his best year, & he wasn't as good as Chris Paul. He wasn't as good as James Harden. He wasn't as good as Russell Westbrook. He wasn't as good as Mike Conley. He wasn't as good as Isaiah Thomas. He wasn't as good as Kyle Lowry. He wasn't as good as Steph Curry.

]I guess that would put him in the top 25% of NBA starting point guards. In his best year. Does that make him someone you can build a championship team around?

Why? Because you say so? Excuse me, but who are you?

Who am I?

I'm Wizardspride/Randy , a poster with an opinion on a message board.

Nothing more, nothing less.

[trast66]

Having been a fan for over 40 years, I'll take john, Brad, and Otto and be very happy. Really good players, and seem to stay out of trouble. This years team currently has the 10th highest winning percentage in franchise history!

I do think they could be even better, but its not going to happen with Ted/Ernie/Brooks in charge. No accountability or standard of excellence set from top. If we had Pop or Stevens we would be a fairly consistent ECF participant with John/Brad/Otto and filler. if we had Morey our filler would actually be good and complementary to John/Brad/Otto. With decent management might even sneak in a championship one year like the Mavericks did.

90% of casual NBA fans would have drafted John/Brad/Otto when we picked so no credit to Ted/Ernie for drafting them.

[TheBabyMaker]

just go read other teams boards, they don’t even want Walls awful contract.

Bet Wall would look great in a Cleveland Jersey right now. Hell He may look good in a NYN jersey.

[TheBabyMaker]

just go read other teams boards, they don’t even want Walls awful contract.

Bet Wall would look great in a Cleveland Jersey right now. Hell He may look good in a NYN jersey.

but keep your hate for Wall alive. Hes the only reason anyone watches the Wizards.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Having been a fan for over 40 years, I'll take john, Brad, and Otto and be very happy. Really good players, and seem to stay out of trouble. This years team currently has the 10th highest winning percentage in franchise history!

I do think they could be even better, but its not going to happen with Ted/Ernie/Brooks in charge. No accountability or standard of excellence set from top. If we had Pop or Stevens we would be a fairly consistent ECF participant with John/Brad/Otto and filler. if we had Morey our filler would actually be good and complementary to John/Brad/Otto. With decent management might even sneak in a championship one year like the Mavericks did.

90% of casual NBA fans would have drafted John/Brad/Otto when we picked so no credit to Ted/Ernie for drafting them.

[pcbothwel]

Its just not possible that we trade Wall ...anytime soon.
The good news is he is drawing fouls, converting at the rim, playing better defense than he has the last couple years, and is hitting the 3 ball... Fact is, only FT shooting and long 2's are the only percentages that are down. I have faith his FT's will climb a little, and couldnt care less about his long 2's as long as he takes less of them.

Really? Lets see...

Per 40 minutes:
Offensive rebounds are down from last year.
Defensive rebounds are down from last year.
Points are down from last year.
Steals are down from last year.
2 pt. % is down from last year.
FT% is down -- way down! -- from last year.
eFG% is down from last year.
TS% is down from last year.
Even FTs are slightly down from last year.

In other words, no he is not "drawing fouls" -- if by that you mean more than, or even as much as, last year. No, he's not "converting at the rim," if by that you mean he's scoring better from 2-point range, & no, "FT shooting and long 2's are the only percentages that are down" is not correct.

But, 3pt. % is up from last year, so I guess we are supposed to concentrate on that, pay no attention to everything else or to his overall effectiveness, b/c "having faith" will take care of those problems.

Only... please explain: why? Why should we we ignore the bad stuff? Why should we not care if his shooting effectiveness -- never a strong point -- is down? Why are the few exceptions to this set of downward changes more important than the overall unquestionable downward change in his play?

What is your deal man? Why do you always have to have such hostility towards everyone. I didnt respond to your message. Your condescending attitude gets old.
But fine, lets dig in.

Hitting the 3 ball

- Wall is shooting more 3's and converting them at a higher rate. Not only that, but his 3PTr is far higher than last year (25% vs 19%)

Drawing fouls

- Wall is attempting the same amount of FT's as last year per possession/per minute... But he is taking less FGA, so his FTr has climbed from 36% to 39%

Converting at the rim

- Wall is shooting 64% from 0-3 feet, up from 59% last year

You stated a lot of redundant info:

Offensive rebounds are down from last year.
Defensive rebounds are down from last year.
Points are down from last year.
Steals are down from last year.
2 pt. % is down from last year.
FT% is down -- way down! -- from last year.
eFG% is down from last year.
TS% is down from last year.

Yes, his rebounds are slightly down... but he is a PG.. Not really important
His steals are down, but his blocks are up... its about a wash
You then go on to list points, 2pt%, eFG%, FT%, and TS...
But I already told you his 2pt% was down with long 2's and his FT% is down. So if he is taking less shots, then that would explain why points, TS, and eFG% are down.

You provided nothing to the discussion. My post was about positive signs, not that he was better than last year.
If he was converting less at the rim, getting less FT's, and shooting worse from 3... all while shooting MUCH better from 16-20 feet and rebounding more, I would be disillusioned as those are not strong trends.

Thats said... no need to be a D. You can say "Im looking at the numbers, but have a hard time seeing what you see. Explain" ...

Instead, you chose "pay no attention to everything else or to his overall effectiveness, b/c "having faith" will take care of those problems."

[TheBabyMaker]

...as for building around those three, (i.e. Beal, Porter & Oubre) no thanks because honestly, I don't think they are good enough to build around.

I'd rather tank then be mediocre (maybe) with those three.

We've built around Wall for almost 8 years now, & we are mediocre right now. We've been to the playoffs 3 times & never gotten out of the 2d round.

Our strength of schedule has been below average, but there are 8 teams out of 30 with better records than ours & another 4 within 1 game of us.

What would make you think John Wall is "good enough to build around?"

If "good enough" means that he is a key player, the kind of guy whose presence means you can become a championship contender, then nothing I've seen makes me think he's "good enough to build around."

Don't get me wrong. John Wall is a very good player; he's having an off year so far, but he is a very good player all the same.

Still, last year was his best year, & he wasn't as good as Chris Paul. He wasn't as good as James Harden. He wasn't as good as Russell Westbrook. He wasn't as good as Mike Conley. He wasn't as good as Isaiah Thomas. He wasn't as good as Kyle Lowry. He wasn't as good as Steph Curry.

I guess that would put him in the top 25% of NBA starting point guards. In his best year. Does that make him someone you can build a championship team around?

Why? Because you say so? Excuse me, but who are you?

Ed Tepscott.?

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

Having been a fan for over 40 years, I'll take john, Brad, and Otto and be very happy. Really good players, and seem to stay out of trouble. This years team currently has the 10th highest winning percentage in franchise history!

I do think they could be even better, but its not going to happen with Ted/Ernie/Brooks in charge. No accountability or standard of excellence set from top. If we had Pop or Stevens we would be a fairly consistent ECF participant with John/Brad/Otto and filler. if we had Morey our filler would actually be good and complementary to John/Brad/Otto. With decent management might even sneak in a championship one year like the Mavericks did.

90% of casual NBA fans would have drafted John/Brad/Otto when we picked so no credit to Ted/Ernie for drafting them.

Excellent post.

[Dat2U]

Its just not possible that we trade Wall ...anytime soon.
The good news is he is drawing fouls, converting at the rim, playing better defense than he has the last couple years, and is hitting the 3 ball... Fact is, only FT shooting and long 2's are the only percentages that are down. I have faith his FT's will climb a little, and couldnt care less about his long 2's as long as he takes less of them.

Really? Lets see...

Per 40 minutes:
Offensive rebounds are down from last year.
Defensive rebounds are down from last year.
Points are down from last year.
Steals are down from last year.
2 pt. % is down from last year.
FT% is down -- way down! -- from last year.
eFG% is down from last year.
TS% is down from last year.
Even FTs are slightly down from last year.

In other words, no he is not "drawing fouls" -- if by that you mean more than, or even as much as, last year. No, he's not "converting at the rim," if by that you mean he's scoring better from 2-point range, & no, "FT shooting and long 2's are the only percentages that are down" is not correct.

But, 3pt. % is up from last year, so I guess we are supposed to concentrate on that, pay no attention to everything else or to his overall effectiveness, b/c "having faith" will take care of those problems.

Only... please explain: why? Why should we we ignore the bad stuff? Why should we not care if his shooting effectiveness -- never a strong point -- is down? Why are the few exceptions to this set of downward changes more important than the overall unquestionable downward change in his play?

You realize were not even at the halfway point of the season yet?

Before we doom Wall to the beginning of a long steep decline lets allow the season to play out.

The way this board is going, Nat will have you guys talking about buying Wall out and handing the keys of the team over to Sato.

This team has an obvious motivation problem with some terrible bad habits but despite all the flaws, its still arguably the 2nd most talented team in the East at the moment... with a veteran core that's still young.

[Dat2U]

Can Beal get traded too?

Or Otto too for that matter.

I have no interest in building around Bradley/Otto.

If you trade John, well then just really blow it up and trade those two as well.

Why? Neither of them are going to make 40 million, neither of them are 27 years old. Neither of them have intangible issues. You could make the argument that removing Wall would solve the leadership issues immediately.

Build around Oubre Porter and Beal and the return for Wall plus the savings on that outrageously horrible super max contract

Removing Wall would save the leadership issues? Did you watch the team without Wall? They weren't exactly leading by example in Wall's absense. This is a rudderless ship with or without Wall. Dumping Wall and every other worthless salary in the books so your boy Ernie can then blow it on some scrub is probably one of the worst suggestions made here in recent memory. Its like this board is stuck on stupid and your leading the damn parade.

[payitforward]

...as for building around those three, (i.e. Beal, Porter & Oubre) no thanks because honestly, I don't think they are good enough to build around.

I'd rather tank then be mediocre (maybe) with those three.

We've built around Wall for almost 8 years now, & we are mediocre right now. We've been to the playoffs 3 times & never gotten out of the 2d round.

Our strength of schedule has been below average, but there are 8 teams out of 30 with better records than ours & another 4 within 1 game of us.

What would make you think John Wall is "good enough to build around?"

If "good enough" means that he is a key player, the kind of guy whose presence means you can become a championship contender, then nothing I've seen makes me think he's "good enough to build around."

Don't get me wrong. John Wall is a very good player; he's having an off year so far, but he is a very good player all the same.

Still, last year was his best year, & he wasn't as good as Chris Paul. He wasn't as good as James Harden. He wasn't as good as Russell Westbrook. He wasn't as good as Mike Conley. He wasn't as good as Isaiah Thomas. He wasn't as good as Kyle Lowry. He wasn't as good as Steph Curry.

]I guess that would put him in the top 25% of NBA starting point guards. In his best year. Does that make him someone you can build a championship team around?

Why? Because you say so? Excuse me, but who are you?

Who am I?

I'm Wizardspride/Randy , a poster with an opinion on a message board.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Ditto -- sorry for my tone. Stupid sometimes...

[DCZards]

just go read other teams boards, they don’t even want Walls awful contract.

To quote your own post from the previous page: "What a stupid thing to say"

Somehow I don't think NBA owners and GMs are making personnel decisions based on what's being said on message boards

[payitforward]

Its just not possible that we trade Wall ...anytime soon.
The good news is he is drawing fouls, converting at the rim, playing better defense than he has the last couple years, and is hitting the 3 ball... Fact is, only FT shooting and long 2's are the only percentages that are down. I have faith his FT's will climb a little, and couldnt care less about his long 2's as long as he takes less of them.

Really? Lets see...

Per 40 minutes:
Offensive rebounds are down from last year.
Defensive rebounds are down from last year.
Points are down from last year.
Steals are down from last year.
2 pt. % is down from last year.
FT% is down -- way down! -- from last year.
eFG% is down from last year.
TS% is down from last year.
Even FTs are slightly down from last year.

In other words, no he is not "drawing fouls" -- if by that you mean more than, or even as much as, last year. No, he's not "converting at the rim," if by that you mean he's scoring better from 2-point range, & no, "FT shooting and long 2's are the only percentages that are down" is not correct.

But, 3pt. % is up from last year, so I guess we are supposed to concentrate on that, pay no attention to everything else or to his overall effectiveness, b/c "having faith" will take care of those problems.

Only... please explain: why? Why should we we ignore the bad stuff? Why should we not care if his shooting effectiveness -- never a strong point -- is down? Why are the few exceptions to this set of downward changes more important than the overall unquestionable downward change in his play?

What is your deal man? Why do you always have to have such hostility towards everyone. I didnt respond to your message. Your condescending attitude gets old.
But fine, lets dig in.

Hitting the 3 ball

- Wall is shooting more 3's and converting them at a higher rate. Not only that, but his 3PTr is far higher than last year (25% vs 19%)

Drawing fouls

- Wall is attempting the same amount of FT's as last year per possession/per minute... But he is taking less FGA, so his FTr has climbed from 36% to 39%

Converting at the rim

- Wall is shooting 64% from 0-3 feet, up from 59% last year

You stated a lot of redundant info:

Offensive rebounds are down from last year.
Defensive rebounds are down from last year.
Points are down from last year.
Steals are down from last year.
2 pt. % is down from last year.
FT% is down -- way down! -- from last year.
eFG% is down from last year.
TS% is down from last year.

Yes, his rebounds are slightly down... but he is a PG.. Not really important
His steals are down, but his blocks are up... its about a wash
You then go on to list points, 2pt%, eFG%, FT%, and TS...
But I already told you his 2pt% was down with long 2's and his FT% is down. So if he is taking less shots, then that would explain why points, TS, and eFG% are down.

You provided nothing to the discussion. My post was about positive signs, not that he was better than last year.
If he was converting less at the rim, getting less FT's, and shooting worse from 3... all while shooting MUCH better from 16-20 feet and rebounding more, I would be disillusioned as those are not strong trends.

Thats said... no need to be a D. You can say "Im looking at the numbers, but have a hard time seeing what you see. Explain" ...

Instead, you chose "pay no attention to everything else or to his overall effectiveness, b/c "having faith" will take care of those problems."

You're right; my tone was pointlessly negative -- give me a pass, & I'll try harder.

I'm frustrated by this team right now. No point in letting it get to me.

That said, everything every player does is important; a guard's rebounds are just as important as a Center's rebounds, even though you don't expect him to get as many. Whatever player gets 1 less rebound, the team has 1 less rebound, which has the same small negative effect on outcome.

[Wizardspride]

We've built around Wall for almost 8 years now, & we are mediocre right now. We've been to the playoffs 3 times & never gotten out of the 2d round.

Our strength of schedule has been below average, but there are 8 teams out of 30 with better records than ours & another 4 within 1 game of us.

What would make you think John Wall is "good enough to build around?"

If "good enough" means that he is a key player, the kind of guy whose presence means you can become a championship contender, then nothing I've seen makes me think he's "good enough to build around."

Don't get me wrong. John Wall is a very good player; he's having an off year so far, but he is a very good player all the same.

Still, last year was his best year, & he wasn't as good as Chris Paul. He wasn't as good as James Harden. He wasn't as good as Russell Westbrook. He wasn't as good as Mike Conley. He wasn't as good as Isaiah Thomas. He wasn't as good as Kyle Lowry. He wasn't as good as Steph Curry.

]I guess that would put him in the top 25% of NBA starting point guards. In his best year. Does that make him someone you can build a championship team around?

Why? Because you say so? Excuse me, but who are you?

Who am I?

I'm Wizardspride/Randy , a poster with an opinion on a message board.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Ditto -- sorry for my tone. Stupid sometimes...

Don't worry about it. I think we're all just a little frustrated with the situation.

On the bright side, we could be the Lakers dealing with Lavar Ball.

[80sballboy]

Read on Twitter

[TheBabyMaker]

The Wizards remind me of my EX wife and two old girlfriends. Forget them the next day.

[zero2hero]

Ernie "Too Cool For School" Grunfield mailing it in for the past 15 years as our GM