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Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4

Moderators: bwgood77, lilfishi22, Qwigglez

What direction would you like the front office to take?

Keep developing young guys and keep first rounders
74
73%
Trade our 18 first/Jackson and whatever else for best player available
11
11%
Trade whatever it takes for vet PG and maybe also vet PF
9
9%
Trade vets for expiring contracts and 2nd rounders
7
7%
 
Total votes: 101

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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#1861 » by lilfishi22 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:12 am

bwgood77 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:You didn't read what I wrote. I said guys can be locked up but that doesn't mean they can't force their way out. Players and agents these days have more power than they ever had.

Booker will sign his max deal but that doesn't mean he can't force his way out for any number of reasons. To say a guys on a contract so they'll be content playing on a crap team is ridiculous. Morris has his own situation and Bledsoe had his. The only comparison I made, if you've read what I wrote, is that they both had years on their deals yet they forced McD's hand and got traded.


I read what you wrote. Those guys wanted out for specific personal circumstances related to money/family. Different scenario. I just think it's pathetic fans are worried about that while a guy is on a rookie contract...barely more than halfway through it and will almost certainly accept a max deal and seems very happy. People just make things up to get worried about.

Sometimes it almost seems like the same people who think our team is on the cusp are the ones afraid Booker will leave because it's not good enough. Not talking about anyone specifically, but it feels that way sometimes.

Then you didn't get the point of my post. It's got nothing to do with Booker's, Bledsoe's or Kieff's individual situation and differences. I was highlighting the fact that players and agents these days have more mobility than they ever had. I'm not saying Booker will leave because he's unhappy, I'm saying he could force a trade even if he's locked into a contract. As I've mentioned, it's naive to think that just because a guy is getting paid and Booker will get paid (if not from us then another team), that somehow all troubles are gone and he's a happy camper. There's personal and internal issues that have broken teams up before. I don't want that to happen and for that not to happen is to not assume things. McD assumed Bledsoe would be content being sat. McD assumed Dragic would never say anything to the public (neither did most of the public). McD assumed Kieff would be sty professional after trading away his brother. There's a million different variations.

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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#1862 » by ATTL » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:18 am

NavLDO wrote:
ATTL wrote:
Spoiler:
NavLDO wrote:
I think you are overlooking what kemba could do for us. I TOTALLY agree with you on your stance with picking up any PG that would strap us financially and be 'old', but Kemba would only be 28 next season, and IMO, if we could get him to sign with us long term after this contract was up, we'd get 6-8 good years out of him. Just look at these guys this season (top link), remembering that THIS season is an anomaly for Tyreke Evans (which when you see by opening the 2nd link, which is their entire careers, is plain as day, is by and far his best season ever...) But Walker is at the top of every meaningful category in both. Not to mention, he was an All-Star last year, and that is what we are looking for, right?

http://bkref.com/tiny/kQvkI

http://bkref.com/tiny/WMttk

Kemba is not in the same league as these other scrubs being discussed; if we can get Kemba, I say we do whatever we can to get him, up to and including taking on Batum's ridiculously bad contract.

Charlotte is a hot mess, and they have no way to get out from under it so long as they have Batum and Howard. One draft pick this year is not going to do it. We, however, can absorb Batum, IF we get our All-Star PG of the future in the process.

Again, go look at Kemba's numbers...22/6/3.5, with a .850 FT% on 5 Att/gm. He's avg'd 1.4 Stls/gm over his career, an ORtg of 113 over his last 2 seasons plus this one, and he's on pace for another 9-ish WS season. The dude is ALMOST exactly what we need; he'd be perfect if he was a couple years younger, but being 27 right now is so much better than a 31 YO Hill or Dragic at a higher cost for less performance.

So, the only thing we'd be missing is that stud Center, but if we were able to maintain Len, and draft one in the late lotto...which is easy since there are 10 1st Rd talents EASY in this class, I think we'd be in a great spot to compete, and yes, I do mean next season with, remember, potentially another 112 games for our young'ns to develop before the playoffs next year.

So, by virtue of taking on Batum, that's a huge 'price' right there, so I don't think we'd have to give up a whole heck of a lot, but enough to get them 'rolling' on their next rebuild.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ydxngrwo + Mia '18 1st and MIL 1st

No idea what pieces would be best for them, but figure JJ's a new start for them over MKG, and Chriss as well, so we can concentrate on Bender.

Kemba / Booker / Warren / Bender / Len or Chimeze Metu

Gives them their pick, a guaranteed top 5, so, at worst, I'll say Trae Young, so their rebuild COULD be short, then they get the Mia 1st pick. The Mil 1st will likely be 2020, so, at worst, they COULD trot out...

Young / Lamb / JJ / Chriss / Howard

That's not bad, and if I were them, I'd jump all over that deal...


I'd rather trade up for Trae this summer and keep cap flexible to sign a big.


I have absolutely no issue with that, either, but I believe Trae Young is now firmly entrenched as a top 6 pick (that could change, of course). I would love it if we could take any number of assets not names Booker, Warren/JJ, or Bender/Chriss, and trade up to a point where we could select either Doncic or Young, all the while saving our cap space for, preferably, Boogie, actually. I now he has his issues, but with him, and the rest our core...wow...instant contender next year, IMO. I'll pretend we pick Doncic, and in order to do so, we had to trade Warren and Bender.

Doncic / Booker / JJ / Chriss / Boogie

BK / Daniels / Reed / then...some mix of Peters, Dudley, Sauce, Chandler


I would include our '19 first with light protection to move up in addition to our pick this year, Milwaukee and some 2nds. I'd hope that would be enough to not need to include TJ in that trade.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#1863 » by NavLDO » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:22 am

Waylay13 wrote:
NavLDO wrote:
Waylay13 wrote:
I would say that our #1 priority is to build a championship team. Right now the best path to get there appears to include Booker but it is also important to remember with is that he wants a max 150 million deal that he cant get form anyone else besides the Suns and he cant get it till after next year. So odds are he isnt going anywhere for a while.


Yes, absolutely, because without Booker, we're starting all over. We've taken the 'build through the draft' route, and IMO, we've squeezed all we can out via that way. I know many want us to 'tank' 'just one more year', because once we get 'X player' we'll be set.

Well, rewind 12 months, insert Josh Jackson's name into that statement. Because that was mantra around here. Well, we did that. Now, that JJ hasn't come in and propelled us to instant glory, here we are again; we need to tank just once more and get Doncic, Young, Ayton, Bamba, whoever.

Then, when THAT rookie doesn't provide instant success, we'll see the phrase come out again...'We need to tank one more year; all we need is x player, and we'll be set!"


Point is, I think we are closer than we think,and what I just showed is a worst case scenario...


First of all you ever think any player is going to come in and make impact in their first season you are crazy. I was and still am one of the biggest supporters for selecting JJ in the draft. Really I am getting what I expected out of him. I have seen him provide us with some good defense and some times where his all around play has shined but I didn't expect that he would suddenly turn this team into a playoff team.

The path the Suns should be taking is that you collect resources (young players, draft picks, caproom, etc) and then you take time let them develop and build a long term team. We are seeing last years rookies get better and even seeing improvement from Len this year. what you dont do is give away all of resources just to get back into the playoffs and then find out you dont have the enough talent to stay there.


That's a great idea. I agree. Problem is, we've been drafting in the lottery since 2011, with Markieff Morris. Then came Marshall...then Len, Warren, Booker, Bender, Chriss, JJ, and now, whoever we select in '18. That will be enough to fill a 9-man rotation. Problem is, we hit with Kieff, but upset him. We probably hit with Len, but failed to develop him properly. we got 'lucky' with Booker, and depending how you look at Warren, him too...but you can't keep tanking every year, picking players in the lottery, so you have 2 players at each position before you decide to finally decide to act, because as we've seen, that's not going to work...because now two of those players are gone, and a 3rd is on his way out the door.

We have 3 extra 1st Rd picks, 2 x Starting-level (we hope) SFs + 2 x Starting-level (we also hope) PFs. We cannot properly develop, IMO, a #4 overall selection SF, so long as we have a SF that is putting up 19/5.6 numbers and a PER of nearly 19. We also cannot properly develop our #4 overall selection PF, so long as our #8 overall selection PF from the same draft is starting every game.

But here's a novel idea, we use the 3 picks and 2 players, which are 5 assets, and attempt to turn them into a starting Center and a starting PG within the next 8 months. Then we can have starter-level players at ALL of our positions, instead of only 3, with the 4th being manned by a 35 YO with no future, and the other being manned by a 5'10" PG who gets destroyed on a nightly basis.

Then, we can still get a draft pick in 2019, hopefully in the upper teens because we made the playoffs, and we continue to develop in that regard.

So when I say that JJ has not become an instant success, it is not me you have to worry about...far from it. IMO, a player needs at least 3 years before they can be relied upon to be an effective starter, as we've seen with both Booker and Warren. Sure, they were good, but they both needed a couple of years to truly master and hone their skills.

So, I'm really not the one you need to take issue with; it's those that think every rookie is going to come in and save the team, and then when they don't by game 10 of the season, they hop back on the 'tank train'. But at the same time, we need to be done. We've been to this 'train stop' once too many times for my liking, and many others...time to move on to a different track. We have plenty of assets to get us close to where we need to be. What you said about developing the talent, so on and so forth, is true, but when that is done, as is with Booker and Warren, we need to move on to stage 2, and continue to develop JJ and either PF we are going to stick, which will give us 3 solid young players.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#1864 » by Frank Lee » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:10 am

Back away from the keyboard son .. slowly .... slowly
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#1865 » by Waylay13 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:34 am

NavLDO wrote:But here's a novel idea, we use the 3 picks and 2 players, which are 5 assets, and attempt to turn them into a starting Center and a starting PG within the next 8 months. Then we can have starter-level players at ALL of our positions, instead of only 3, with the 4th being manned by a 35 YO with no future, and the other being manned by a 5'10" PG who gets destroyed on a nightly basis.


In other words you are saying dont worry about developing a young core of promising talent (like the 76ers or like Warriors did with Green, Curry and Thompson) but lets try to throw some of those assets to pick up a couple players that can come in and push us into the playoffs so we can tread water there and hope that what we have now is enough to keep us in the playoffs? The problem your view that we pick morris was that the idea was always just to get back into the playoffs. I want a real plan that will develop a championship team not another also ran team that is going to wash out in the first round of the playoffs. I look at the 76ers and Boston as patterns that we should follow of collecting assests and building around them without trying to rush.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#1866 » by bwgood77 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:57 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:You didn't read what I wrote. I said guys can be locked up but that doesn't mean they can't force their way out. Players and agents these days have more power than they ever had.

Booker will sign his max deal but that doesn't mean he can't force his way out for any number of reasons. To say a guys on a contract so they'll be content playing on a crap team is ridiculous. Morris has his own situation and Bledsoe had his. The only comparison I made, if you've read what I wrote, is that they both had years on their deals yet they forced McD's hand and got traded.


I read what you wrote. Those guys wanted out for specific personal circumstances related to money/family. Different scenario. I just think it's pathetic fans are worried about that while a guy is on a rookie contract...barely more than halfway through it and will almost certainly accept a max deal and seems very happy. People just make things up to get worried about.

Sometimes it almost seems like the same people who think our team is on the cusp are the ones afraid Booker will leave because it's not good enough. Not talking about anyone specifically, but it feels that way sometimes.

Then you didn't get the point of my post. It's got nothing to do with Booker's, Bledsoe's or Kieff's individual situation and differences. I was highlighting the fact that players and agents these days have more mobility than they ever had. I'm not saying Booker will leave because he's unhappy, I'm saying he could force a trade even if he's locked into a contract. As I've mentioned, it's naive to think that just because a guy is getting paid and Booker will get paid (if not from us then another team), that somehow all troubles are gone and he's a happy camper. There's personal and internal issues that have broken teams up before. I don't want that to happen and for that not to happen is to not assume things. McD assumed Bledsoe would be content being sat. McD assumed Dragic would never say anything to the public (neither did most of the public). McD assumed Kieff would be sty professional after trading away his brother. There's a million different variations.

Don't assume things


I guess from your point of view anyone can force a trade at any time. It might be risky for some players to do so. I think the only time a team will usually bend to a player wanting to be traded is when they risk losing him due to free agency, so that usually wouldn't happen until they are a free agent in a year or a year and a half. Two years at the most. I can't think of any situations really where a guy tried to do so before that, and usually the only guys that get moved are superstars in such scenarios are superstars. And lately those stars have ended up netting pretty good trade packages outside of maybe Cousins.

I guess I'm not sure your point...sure he could pout and say he's sitting early or something if we are not as good as he would like, I don't see Booker being that type of guy.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#1867 » by jredsaz » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:41 am

[url]
Read on Twitter
[/url]

Apparently the Clips offered Blake to The Wolves for Towns. Obviously thats a no go. What would you give up for Blake?
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#1868 » by Cutter » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:43 am

I'm not sure why, but I really like Charles Barkley. Maybe it's because he has a IDGAF attitude!
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#1869 » by ATTL » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:57 am

jredsaz wrote:[url]
Read on Twitter
[/url]

Apparently the Clips offered Blake to The Wolves for Towns. Obviously thats a no go. What would you give up for Blake?


Monroe and the cap space we would have used to sign him.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#1870 » by RaisingArizona » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:58 am

Cutter wrote:I'm not sure why, but I really like Charles Barkley. Maybe it's because he has a IDGAF attitude!

Any TRUE Suns fan loves the guy.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#1871 » by Cutter » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:12 am

I still like PJ Tucker.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#1872 » by Kerrsed » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:31 pm

All i can say about that Clipper trade offer is they better have also been including Jordan with Griffin, along with a quite a few unprotected 1st round picks.

Like why would the wolves trade one of the best young bigs in the game for a seemingly always-injured-toward-the-end-of-season Griffin? And thats coming from me, a Blake Griffin fan!

Now i doubt that the Clippers offered that much, but damn, it just shows how out of touch with things they are. I mean i still would love to get Griffin here, but knowing the Clippers, they would ask for Booker (Along with his 1st born son).

**EDIT** after reading the actual article, wow, lol I almost forgot about the major major difference in pay. Griffin at $30M and KAT at $6M. That means the Wolves would have been forced to part ways with Butler or Teague Or Dieng, along with another player like Wiggins, and that would be just to cover Griffins salary ALONE!

But it is interesting to note that the Clippers are open to trading Griffin after just re-inking him (And depending on who you believe, stealing him away from us). They have made exploratory calls and he cant be traded until tomorrow, the 14th.

I do wonder if we still have any interest in him?

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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#1873 » by Saberestar » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:03 pm

The Clippers would trade Griffin for Booker. Not less.
No way they trade him for a package of low pieces. That is why they wanted Towns.

I do not see news in all of that. These offers are probably being made everyday....something like Cleveland offering Kevin Love for Anteto. "Do you want to trade with us Milwaukee?"
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#1874 » by BobbieL » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:03 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:As this team moves into more of the win now phase of the rebuild I really hope they learn from the mistakes of the D'Antoni era and never stop developing young players. I truly believe that their constant trading of draft picks and refusal to develop young players cost them a championship. Had they hit on just one of those picks they gave away it could have been the guy that put them over the top. Smart teams are always trying to add young cheap controllable talent. Heck look at the crazy stacked Warriors team they have bought early second round picks that got them Bell and McCaw.

Now I'm not saying you can't trade any picks if there's some opportunist deal available for a veteran but you shouldn't go to that well too often or you get yourself in trouble.


I agree. The Suns the one year had picks 17 and 18 - which turned out to be Sergio Rodriguez and Rajon Rondo - when the Suns needed a back up PG. What did Sarver and Mike D'A do - they traded those two picks for $3m each along with Brian Grant as the Celtics took his contract - $2m/

What did Mike D than do a few weeks later, sign Marcus Banks for 21/5. Now, even keeping one of those guys was a 4 year like 6m contract - so cap certainty

I am still ticked the Suns let Bell pass them by. Nothing against Reed but Bell and Josh Jackson seemed like perfect two players to add for defense, rebounding hustle

So yes, keep your picks. The Suns have 6 first rounders between 18 and 21 (not counting Milwaukee as I have no idea what that will be). So, maybe 2 of those picks can be traded - at most three but not the Suns 20018 or the Heat 2021. Along with the I think three second rounders this year (though I think the Suns should keep their own or at least use them on stash guys). But yes, keep the young cheap players churning your roster.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#1875 » by BobbieL » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:05 pm

ATTL wrote:
NavLDO wrote:
ATTL wrote:
Spoiler:


I'd rather trade up for Trae this summer and keep cap flexible to sign a big.


I have absolutely no issue with that, either, but I believe Trae Young is now firmly entrenched as a top 6 pick (that could change, of course). I would love it if we could take any number of assets not names Booker, Warren/JJ, or Bender/Chriss, and trade up to a point where we could select either Doncic or Young, all the while saving our cap space for, preferably, Boogie, actually. I now he has his issues, but with him, and the rest our core...wow...instant contender next year, IMO. I'll pretend we pick Doncic, and in order to do so, we had to trade Warren and Bender.

Doncic / Booker / JJ / Chriss / Boogie

BK / Daniels / Reed / then...some mix of Peters, Dudley, Sauce, Chandler


I would include our '19 first with light protection to move up in addition to our pick this year, Milwaukee and some 2nds. I'd hope that would be enough to not need to include TJ in that trade.



Not sure what it will take to get Trae Young but I am on the bandwagon for that guy - even over Doncic, Bagley and Ayton. But the Suns are going to need to have a bad second half and get lucky with ping pong balls
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#1876 » by hollywood6964 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:21 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:You didn't read what I wrote. I said guys can be locked up but that doesn't mean they can't force their way out. Players and agents these days have more power than they ever had.

Booker will sign his max deal but that doesn't mean he can't force his way out for any number of reasons. To say a guys on a contract so they'll be content playing on a crap team is ridiculous. Morris has his own situation and Bledsoe had his. The only comparison I made, if you've read what I wrote, is that they both had years on their deals yet they forced McD's hand and got traded.


I read what you wrote. Those guys wanted out for specific personal circumstances related to money/family. Different scenario. I just think it's pathetic fans are worried about that while a guy is on a rookie contract...barely more than halfway through it and will almost certainly accept a max deal and seems very happy. People just make things up to get worried about.

Sometimes it almost seems like the same people who think our team is on the cusp are the ones afraid Booker will leave because it's not good enough. Not talking about anyone specifically, but it feels that way sometimes.

Then you didn't get the point of my post. It's got nothing to do with Booker's, Bledsoe's or Kieff's individual situation and differences. I was highlighting the fact that players and agents these days have more mobility than they ever had. I'm not saying Booker will leave because he's unhappy, I'm saying he could force a trade even if he's locked into a contract. As I've mentioned, it's naive to think that just because a guy is getting paid and Booker will get paid (if not from us then another team), that somehow all troubles are gone and he's a happy camper. There's personal and internal issues that have broken teams up before. I don't want that to happen and for that not to happen is to not assume things. McD assumed Bledsoe would be content being sat. McD assumed Dragic would never say anything to the public (neither did most of the public). McD assumed Kieff would be sty professional after trading away his brother. There's a million different variations.

Don't assume things


Exactly, it's the way it is in this league.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#1877 » by Qwigglez » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:46 pm

bwgood77 wrote:I guess from your point of view anyone can force a trade at any time. It might be risky for some players to do so. I think the only time a team will usually bend to a player wanting to be traded is when they risk losing him due to free agency, so that usually wouldn't happen until they are a free agent in a year or a year and a half. Two years at the most. I can't think of any situations really where a guy tried to do so before that, and usually the only guys that get moved are superstars in such scenarios are superstars. And lately those stars have ended up netting pretty good trade packages outside of maybe Cousins.

I guess I'm not sure your point...sure he could pout and say he's sitting early or something if we are not as good as he would like, I don't see Booker being that type of guy.


Didn't JJ ask for the Suns to not match the offer sheet of the Hawks? Forced us into a S&T to appease JJ. We seem to be the only team to bow down to such players requests.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#1878 » by Qwigglez » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:54 pm

Saberestar wrote:The Clippers would trade Griffin for Booker. Not less.
No way they trade him for a package of low pieces. That is why they wanted Towns.

I do not see news in all of that. These offers are probably being made everyday....something like Cleveland offering Kevin Love for Anteto. "Do you want to trade with us Milwaukee?"


I highly doubt it. Sure they can ask for Booker, KAT, KP, doesn't mean they will get it. Griffin's contract would cripple most teams that would trade for him. Playoff teams would destroy their rotation to even salary match. The teams on the outside looking in would give up too many young pieces that it wouldn't be worth it either.
I actually think the Suns would be the only team (maybe a couple more) to offer something somewhat substantial and it isn't even an incredible offer. We could offer an expiring contract, and Knight along with several picks. That's pretty much it. Anything else is too risky for us, and the Clippers likely wouldn't take that offer unless they were really desperate to trade him and wanted to start over.

Article is bogus anyway, that is the kind of offer that gets you immediately blocked, asking for KAT. My offer would likely get laughed at but they'd probably do it if we included Jackson and another young piece.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#1879 » by sunsbum » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:56 pm

I think if there was anytime to use a future pick of our own to move up in the draft I would do it this year. I don't see us in the lottery much longer.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#1880 » by jredsaz » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:00 pm

Saberestar wrote:The Clippers would trade Griffin for Booker. Not less.
No way they trade him for a package of low pieces. That is why they wanted Towns.

I do not see news in all of that. These offers are probably being made everyday....something like Cleveland offering Kevin Love for Anteto. "Do you want to trade with us Milwaukee?"


At this point I doubt they would - but like with Bledsoe, being rumored in trade scenarios can push a player to demand a trade. When you consider the possible changes this off season in the coaching staff there is a chance that he gets to force his way out. In that scenario the Clips will take less than Booker.

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