What's the problem with Mike Malone?

[mcmurphy]

Last year it took until mid-December to understand that the duo Nurkic-Jokic did not work and that Jokic had to play as a center.
This year the same story.

Jokic ON court +7.4 (per 100 possessions) - 1077 mins
Jokic OFF court -5.3 (per 100 possessions) - 954 mins

Jokic ON court - Lyles ON court +12.9 (per 100 possessions) - 247 mins
Jokic ON court - Millsap ON court +9.6 (per 100 possessions) - 325 mins
Jokic ON court - Faried ON court +6.42 (per 100 possessions) - 166 mins
Jokic ON court - Plumlee ON court +4.56 (per 100 possessions) - 252 mins

Jokic OFF court - Plumlee OFF court -9.22 (per 100 possessions) - 359 mins
Jokic OFF court - Plumlee ON court -2.97 (per 100 possessions) - 595 mins


It's clear to me that:

1) Denver is better with Jokic ON court
2) Denver is better with a classical PF (Millsap-Lyles or Faried)
3) Denver is abominable without a center in lineup (-9.22 NetRtg)
4) Denver without Jokic is better with Plumlee ON court

Why for Malone it's so hard to understand?

[MidMountain]

Most of these stats rely on very low sample size, less than 4 games worth of minutes. They can vary widely based upon a single game.
1) Foul trouble is usually the reason Jokic sits. I’m sure Malone would play him 48 minutes if possible.
2) This is true when Jokic is on the court. Plumlee/Faried is not a good pairing.
3 &4) The bulk of the small ball minutes were when Jokic was out and there was no choice. Malone uses small ball lineups sparingly, lately in an attempt to kickstart a stalled offense.


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[mcmurphy]

1) Foul trouble is usually the reason Jokic sits. I’m sure Malone would play him 48 minutes if possible.

Sorry, but this year the reason of foul trouble is a bullsxxt.
Average 2.5 PF/g 30.8 mpg and only 2 of 35 games had more of 4 fouls.

KAT 3.4 PF/g 35.7 mpg ( 8 of 44 games had more of 4 fouls)
DMC 3.7 PF/g 35.7 mpg (16 of 41 games had more of 4 fouls)
Embiid (??!!!) 3.5 PF/g 31.2 mpg (7 of 30 games had more 4 fouls)

2) This is true when Jokic is on the court. Plumlee/Faried is not a good pairing.

Jokic and Faried is a good pairing.
Without Jokic there are no good lineups just less worse.

[NuggetsWY]

1) Foul trouble is usually the reason Jokic sits. I’m sure Malone would play him 48 minutes if possible.

Sorry, but this year the reason of foul trouble is a bullsxxt.
Average 2.5 PF/g 30.8 mpg and only 2 of 35 games had more of 4 fouls.

KAT 3.4 PF/g 35.7 mpg ( 8 of 44 games had more of 4 fouls)
DMC 3.7 PF/g 35.7 mpg (16 of 41 games had more of 4 fouls)
Embiid (??!!!) 3.5 PF/g 31.2 mpg (7 of 30 games had more 4 fouls)

2) This is true when Jokic is on the court. Plumlee/Faried is not a good pairing.

Jokic and Faried is a good pairing.
Without Jokic there are no good lineups just less worse.

It seems Malone just likes to play mind-games with his younger players - not just Jokic.

[Acountant_Z]

Malone suffers from tunnel vision. He is trying to build another Warriors team. Nothing will change his mind.
Problem he has is Murray is not Curry, and Jokic is the polar opposite of Green.
This team as currently constructed cannot succeed. It either needs a new coach or new personnel.

New personnel almost certainly means trading Jokic. It is the only way you could bring in quality that could make Malone's vision work. You all can get indignant as much as you like but that is the bottom line.

If you bring in a new coach, he will bench/trade Murray and look for a real point guard. Murray is not one, he is a terrific young talent but his vision is limited to the hoop and he is incapable of involving other players.

These are the choices, there cannot be half measures unless you want this up and down team that is in constant flux and stuck at .500 or so.

[skywalker33]

1) Foul trouble is usually the reason Jokic sits. I’m sure Malone would play him 48 minutes if possible.

Sorry, but this year the reason of foul trouble is a bullsxxt.
Average 2.5 PF/g 30.8 mpg and only 2 of 35 games had more of 4 fouls.

KAT 3.4 PF/g 35.7 mpg ( 8 of 44 games had more of 4 fouls)
DMC 3.7 PF/g 35.7 mpg (16 of 41 games had more of 4 fouls)
Embiid (??!!!) 3.5 PF/g 31.2 mpg (7 of 30 games had more 4 fouls)

2) This is true when Jokic is on the court. Plumlee/Faried is not a good pairing.

Jokic and Faried is a good pairing.
Without Jokic there are no good lineups just less worse.

It seems Malone just likes to play mind-games with his younger players - not just Jokic.

Gotta ask, do you truly believe that ??

[psimanic1]

He wants his "system" to succeed so badly that even if you give him Lebron, Harden, Paul, Davis all in one team, he wouldnt play to their strenghts but to his "system"...its like he thinks that if he plays to players strenght noone would say he did something good

[NuggetsWY]

Sorry, but this year the reason of foul trouble is a bullsxxt.
Average 2.5 PF/g 30.8 mpg and only 2 of 35 games had more of 4 fouls.

KAT 3.4 PF/g 35.7 mpg ( 8 of 44 games had more of 4 fouls)
DMC 3.7 PF/g 35.7 mpg (16 of 41 games had more of 4 fouls)
Embiid (??!!!) 3.5 PF/g 31.2 mpg (7 of 30 games had more 4 fouls)

Jokic and Faried is a good pairing.
Without Jokic there are no good lineups just less worse.

It seems Malone just likes to play mind-games with his younger players - not just Jokic.

Gotta ask, do you truly believe that ??

Yes, I do believe that. He tried it a little in the first couple of years and the veterans expressed themselves. That included when Gallinari outright disagreed when Malone said, "No veteran leadership" - and Gallinari walked. Chandler has made it clear he doesn't want to be on the Nuggets. Barton is preparing to walk.

He yanked both Jokic & Murray from games - and is still doing it. Once in a while, Murray still gets a 22 minute game. You don't see him doing that with Barton. He gives Beasley 25 minutes and then doesn't play him for five games. Where's Mudiay? Do you really believe he's got a severe injury? Why isn't Hernangomez playing at all? He called Craig up and played him very inconsistent minutes.

Yes, I believe the Nuggets are all about Malone and his exerting control.

[MidMountain]

Malone suffers from tunnel vision. He is trying to build another Warriors team. Nothing will change his mind.
Problem he has is Murray is not Curry, and Jokic is the polar opposite of Green.
This team as currently constructed cannot succeed. It either needs a new coach or new personnel.

New personnel almost certainly means trading Jokic. It is the only way you could bring in quality that could make Malone's vision work. You all can get indignant as much as you like but that is the bottom line.

If you bring in a new coach, he will bench/trade Murray and look for a real point guard. Murray is not one, he is a terrific young talent but his vision is limited to the hoop and he is incapable of involving other players.

These are the choices, there cannot be half measures unless you want this up and down team that is in constant flux and stuck at .500 or so.

I attribute the up and down play to the youth of our core, not the coach. Trading those players now would be a terrible idea.


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[THE J0KER]

He wants his "system" to succeed so badly that even if you give him Lebron, Harden, Paul, Davis all in one team, he wouldnt play to their strenghts but to his "system"...its like he thinks that if he plays to players strenght noone would say he did something good

But he is the same coach which runs different system last season in Denver (after Dec 15), and also system which he runs during his time in Sacramento is also different.

So I agree with OP, this is a big mystery why Malone gave up from a system which gives very good results last season (since Dec 15th) and repeating the same mistake (Jokic at PF) day by day. I can understand if he trying to do something new when Millsap is there, but when he is injured there are no reasons to use from last season wrong Jokic-Nurkic system from before December 15 instead of superior with Jokic at point-center which we use after Dec 15 last season.

But I must confess that there is some deeper problem with Denver which I have no idea how to explain. Since the start of this season, I notice the irrationally big difference of Nuggets performances in 3rd quarter compared to all other quarters.

Average 1st Quarter Margin: -1.3 (#25)
Average 2nd Quarter Margin: -0.7 (#20)
Average 3rd Quarter Margin: +3.8 (#2)
Average 4th Quarter Margin: -0.4 (#21)
(Only teams with over +3.5 differential at some particular quarter are Houston in 1st, Toronto in 2nd, GSW and Denver in 3rd.)

And when I looking at our average and advanced stats from 2017-18 Denver 3rd quarters, literally everything working well, including Jokic-Plumlee PF-C duo!?!? How on Earth we are almost the worst NBA team in 1st quarters but 2nd best in 3rd quarters when lineup schedule (players/minutes) for 1st and 3rd quarter are almost identical?!? Are we team with worst preparations before matches, but then suddenly we fixing all mistakes after halftime, or what?!? I have no idea to explain it.

[skywalker33]

Yes, I do believe that. He tried it a little in the first couple of years and the veterans expressed themselves. That included when Gallinari outright disagreed when Malone said, "No veteran leadership" - and Gallinari walked. Chandler has made it clear he doesn't want to be on the Nuggets. Barton is preparing to walk.

He yanked both Jokic & Murray from games - and is still doing it. Once in a while, Murray still gets a 22 minute game. You don't see him doing that with Barton. He gives Beasley 25 minutes and then doesn't play him for five games. Where's Mudiay? Do you really believe he's got a severe injury? Why isn't Hernangomez playing at all? He called Craig up and played him very inconsistent minutes.

Yes, I believe the Nuggets are all about Malone and his exerting control.

You and I remember things a bit differently, when Gallo disagreed, I thought Malone was right, I never saw a lot of leadership from Gallo, would he even know what it looks like ?? Chandler was whining about his PT, I'm hoping he does opt out and Barton wants to try free agency, who can blame him after he signed that 3yr $10M contract which he clearly outplayed.

As for Jokic and Murray, "yank" seems to be a perspective thing, they still get their minutes in most every game, I see it as pulling them to regain their focus, they are still young players. As for Barton, we'll agree that Malone leaves him in way too long in many games he should be pulled. Beasley is deep in the bench playing behind BOTH Barton and Harris, he gets mins when needed. I'd bet he'd get more mins if Barton was traded.

I am with you on Mudiay and Hernangomez, at least with Juancho, we should see what he can bring, I am losing faith in MUdiay though.

[NuggetsWY]

You and I remember things a bit differently, when Gallo disagreed, I thought Malone was right, I never saw a lot of leadership from Gallo, would he even know what it looks like ?? Chandler was whining about his PT, I'm hoping he does opt out and Barton wants to try free agency, who can blame him after he signed that 3yr $10M contract which he clearly outplayed.

As for Jokic and Murray, "yank" seems to be a perspective thing, they still get their minutes in most every game, I see it as pulling them to regain their focus, they are still young players. As for Barton, we'll agree that Malone leaves him in way too long in many games he should be pulled. Beasley is deep in the bench playing behind BOTH Barton and Harris, he gets mins when needed. I'd bet he'd get more mins if Barton was traded.

I am with you on Mudiay and Hernangomez, at least with Juancho, we should see what he can bring, I am losing faith in MUdiay though.

Yeah, I'm losing faith in Mudiay but I still wonder if that's on Malone not knowing how to teach/'use him. In the last few games he played, he was starting to look more like another spot-up shooter. If he tried to play more like Murray as a shooting-PG or even just a backup SG, would he do better?

I don't think we remember things differently when Gallinari disagreed with Malone. I also agreed with Malone - I just didn't agree with how he handled it. It reminded me of a press conference when he was in Sacramento and he said something like he didn't have good players and they had too many turnovers. I'm beginning to wonder if his system doesn't work and results in more turnovers simply because NBA players are taller, longer, faster than the way they used to be. Maybe he's living in the past.

[Powder Blue]

I think I just had a little revelation about why the criticisms we all make about Malone aren’t echoed to the same degree by the people that cover the team.

The people that cover and write about the Nuggets need interest in the Nuggets to build back up, much like KSE does. If they start writing what the OP clearly showed as a defiecency of Malone it’s negative press on the team and that would drop interest in the team and the various blogs that cover the Nuggets. Criticism equals less interest equal less clicks, it’s bad for business.

Criticism of Vance Joseph isn’t bad business like criticism of Michael Malone, because Broncos interests high good times and bad. I also think for whatever reason there are too many different Nuggets blogs, all jockey to promote optimism about the Nuggets and drive their content.

I think it’s possible to be optimistic about the Nuggets, but pessimistic Malone is the long-term answer as the coach

[The Rebel]

I think I just had a little revelation about why the criticisms we all make about Malone aren’t echoed to the same degree by the people that cover the team.

The people that cover and write about the Nuggets need interest in the Nuggets to build back up, much like KSE does. If they start writing what the OP clearly showed as a defiecency of Malone it’s negative press on the team and that would drop interest in the team and the various blogs that cover the Nuggets. Criticism equals less interest equal less clicks, it’s bad for business.

Criticism of Vance Joseph isn’t bad business like criticism of Michael Malone, because Broncos interests high good times and bad. I also think for whatever reason there are too many different Nuggets blogs, all jockey to promote optimism about the Nuggets and drive their content.

I think it’s possible to be optimistic about the Nuggets, but pessimistic Malone is the long-term answer as the coach

I agree with what you said, but the critisicm could actually be good for drawing interest. Right now the average casual fan is saying same old Nuggets. Everybody outside of the staunchest Malone fans can see that he is a detriment to this team with his schemes and rotations if they pay attention. Casual fans are being fed that he is a great coach, and believe it. Leading to them thinking our players are overrated and not worth attention. Hell you can even see it on discussion boards like this.

Pointing out how he is hurting the team will make people stop and start thinking and looking at the actual players on this team. They will see he is the problem and that these young guys have the chance to be something special. That will make people start watching and believing in the young guys, and quit pushing this idea that Malone is a good coach. He is a defensive assistant, not a head coach, and not someone who should be designing an offense or be demanding roster changes.

In fact I would contend that actually reporting the truth about the team would help generate interest quicker than anything. Constant praise for a team that is in their 5th year since they made the playoffs is not fooling anybody, either the talent is lacking or there is a problem with the coaching and roster composition. I don't think it is a talent issue, but,maybe I am wrong.

[NuggetsWY]

I think I just had a little revelation about why the criticisms we all make about Malone aren’t echoed to the same degree by the people that cover the team.

The people that cover and write about the Nuggets need interest in the Nuggets to build back up, much like KSE does. If they start writing what the OP clearly showed as a defiecency of Malone it’s negative press on the team and that would drop interest in the team and the various blogs that cover the Nuggets. Criticism equals less interest equal less clicks, it’s bad for business.

Criticism of Vance Joseph isn’t bad business like criticism of Michael Malone, because Broncos interests high good times and bad. I also think for whatever reason there are too many different Nuggets blogs, all jockey to promote optimism about the Nuggets and drive their content.

I think it’s possible to be optimistic about the Nuggets, but pessimistic Malone is the long-term answer as the coach

I agree with what you said, but the critisicm could actually be good for drawing interest. Right now the average casual fan is saying same old Nuggets. Everybody outside of the staunchest Malone fans can see that he is a detriment to this team with his schemes and rotations if they pay attention. Casual fans are being fed that he is a great coach, and believe it. Leading to them thinking our players are overrated and not worth attention. Hell you can even see it on discussion boards like this.

Pointing out how he is hurting the team will make people stop and start thinking and looking at the actual players on this team. They will see he is the problem and that these young guys have the chance to be something special. That will make people start watching and believing in the young guys, and quit pushing this idea that Malone is a good coach. He is a defensive assistant, not a head coach, and not someone who should be designing an offense or be demanding roster changes.

In fact I would contend that actually reporting the truth about the team would help generate interest quicker than anything. Constant praise for a team that is in their 5th year since they made the playoffs is not fooling anybody, either the talent is lacking or there is a problem with the coaching and roster composition. I don't think it is a talent issue, but,maybe I am wrong.

Doubt much will happen - the ownership, GM, head coach is like a string of good-old-boy buddies.

[youngthegiant]

I'm done with him,If missing the playoff is the only way we fire Malone. Then it needs to happen. Two years in a row, he has limited the effectiveness of his best player.

[Powder Blue]

I think I just had a little revelation about why the criticisms we all make about Malone aren’t echoed to the same degree by the people that cover the team.

The people that cover and write about the Nuggets need interest in the Nuggets to build back up, much like KSE does. If they start writing what the OP clearly showed as a defiecency of Malone it’s negative press on the team and that would drop interest in the team and the various blogs that cover the Nuggets. Criticism equals less interest equal less clicks, it’s bad for business.

Criticism of Vance Joseph isn’t bad business like criticism of Michael Malone, because Broncos interests high good times and bad. I also think for whatever reason there are too many different Nuggets blogs, all jockey to promote optimism about the Nuggets and drive their content.

I think it’s possible to be optimistic about the Nuggets, but pessimistic Malone is the long-term answer as the coach

I agree with what you said, but the critisicm could actually be good for drawing interest. Right now the average casual fan is saying same old Nuggets. Everybody outside of the staunchest Malone fans can see that he is a detriment to this team with his schemes and rotations if they pay attention. Casual fans are being fed that he is a great coach, and believe it. Leading to them thinking our players are overrated and not worth attention. Hell you can even see it on discussion boards like this.

Pointing out how he is hurting the team will make people stop and start thinking and looking at the actual players on this team. They will see he is the problem and that these young guys have the chance to be something special. That will make people start watching and believing in the young guys, and quit pushing this idea that Malone is a good coach. He is a defensive assistant, not a head coach, and not someone who should be designing an offense or be demanding roster changes.

In fact I would contend that actually reporting the truth about the team would help generate interest quicker than anything. Constant praise for a team that is in their 5th year since they made the playoffs is not fooling anybody, either the talent is lacking or there is a problem with the coaching and roster composition. I don't think it is a talent issue, but,maybe I am wrong.

I get what you're saying as well. I don't think that most of the folks covering the Nuggets could run with a message that Malone is hurting the team and still maintain the access that they have to the team. That message might rock the boat so instead, they feed us Nuggets speak maintaining that positive slant KSE prefers. Whatever the reasoning what we're all seeing as shortfalls from Malone isn't be echoed by the media.

Casual fans eat up the "missing their best player" excuse after every loss. Drives me nuts. As does the "oh it was a B2B or 3rd in 4 nights....Everyone else gets those too. Tired legs and bad rotations are 2 different things.

[The Rebel]

I think I just had a little revelation about why the criticisms we all make about Malone aren’t echoed to the same degree by the people that cover the team.

The people that cover and write about the Nuggets need interest in the Nuggets to build back up, much like KSE does. If they start writing what the OP clearly showed as a defiecency of Malone it’s negative press on the team and that would drop interest in the team and the various blogs that cover the Nuggets. Criticism equals less interest equal less clicks, it’s bad for business.

Criticism of Vance Joseph isn’t bad business like criticism of Michael Malone, because Broncos interests high good times and bad. I also think for whatever reason there are too many different Nuggets blogs, all jockey to promote optimism about the Nuggets and drive their content.

I think it’s possible to be optimistic about the Nuggets, but pessimistic Malone is the long-term answer as the coach

I agree with what you said, but the critisicm could actually be good for drawing interest. Right now the average casual fan is saying same old Nuggets. Everybody outside of the staunchest Malone fans can see that he is a detriment to this team with his schemes and rotations if they pay attention. Casual fans are being fed that he is a great coach, and believe it. Leading to them thinking our players are overrated and not worth attention. Hell you can even see it on discussion boards like this.

Pointing out how he is hurting the team will make people stop and start thinking and looking at the actual players on this team. They will see he is the problem and that these young guys have the chance to be something special. That will make people start watching and believing in the young guys, and quit pushing this idea that Malone is a good coach. He is a defensive assistant, not a head coach, and not someone who should be designing an offense or be demanding roster changes.

In fact I would contend that actually reporting the truth about the team would help generate interest quicker than anything. Constant praise for a team that is in their 5th year since they made the playoffs is not fooling anybody, either the talent is lacking or there is a problem with the coaching and roster composition. I don't think it is a talent issue, but,maybe I am wrong.

I get what you're saying as well. I don't think that most of the folks covering the Nuggets could run with a message that Malone is hurting the team and still maintain the access that they have to the team. That message might rock the boat so instead, they feed us Nuggets speak maintaining that positive slant KSE prefers. Whatever the reasoning what we're all seeing as shortfalls from Malone isn't be echoed by the media.

Casual fans eat up the "missing their best player" excuse after every loss. Drives me nuts. As does the "oh it was a B2B or 3rd in 4 nights....Everyone else gets those too. Tired legs and bad rotations are 2 different things.

I agree that is KSE's thoughts on it, but I think the excuses have run out. This is the 5th year since they lost Ujiri and Karl, it is the 5th year of constant injury excuses, young team, and all the other crap they have been feeding people for 5 years. The excuses are running out and the Nuggets are starting to lose all relevance again. This young talent and being a almost playoff team deserve to be have real attention brought to them, they deserve to have a coach that can use their talents, and they deserve to get criticized like any other professional athlete. I am tired of the super nice Nuggets, I want to see a basketball team that puts winning above ass kissing, I want to see players do what they do best, and I want to enjoy watching the games again. This team is not what Malone envisions, and he is going to destroy it if he refuses to play to their strengths, and i hate watching knowing what this team could be in a couple of years.

[Powder Blue]

I agree with what you said, but the critisicm could actually be good for drawing interest. Right now the average casual fan is saying same old Nuggets. Everybody outside of the staunchest Malone fans can see that he is a detriment to this team with his schemes and rotations if they pay attention. Casual fans are being fed that he is a great coach, and believe it. Leading to them thinking our players are overrated and not worth attention. Hell you can even see it on discussion boards like this.

Pointing out how he is hurting the team will make people stop and start thinking and looking at the actual players on this team. They will see he is the problem and that these young guys have the chance to be something special. That will make people start watching and believing in the young guys, and quit pushing this idea that Malone is a good coach. He is a defensive assistant, not a head coach, and not someone who should be designing an offense or be demanding roster changes.

In fact I would contend that actually reporting the truth about the team would help generate interest quicker than anything. Constant praise for a team that is in their 5th year since they made the playoffs is not fooling anybody, either the talent is lacking or there is a problem with the coaching and roster composition. I don't think it is a talent issue, but,maybe I am wrong.

I get what you're saying as well. I don't think that most of the folks covering the Nuggets could run with a message that Malone is hurting the team and still maintain the access that they have to the team. That message might rock the boat so instead, they feed us Nuggets speak maintaining that positive slant KSE prefers. Whatever the reasoning what we're all seeing as shortfalls from Malone isn't be echoed by the media.

Casual fans eat up the "missing their best player" excuse after every loss. Drives me nuts. As does the "oh it was a B2B or 3rd in 4 nights....Everyone else gets those too. Tired legs and bad rotations are 2 different things.

I agree that is KSE's thoughts on it, but I think the excuses have run out. This is the 5th year since they lost Ujiri and Karl, it is the 5th year of constant injury excuses, young team, and all the other crap they have been feeding people for 5 years. The excuses are running out and the Nuggets are starting to lose all relevance again. This young talent and being a almost playoff team deserve to be have real attention brought to them, they deserve to have a coach that can use their talents, and they deserve to get criticized like any other professional athlete. I am tired of the super nice Nuggets, I want to see a basketball team that puts winning above ass kissing, I want to see players do what they do best, and I want to enjoy watching the games again. This team is not what Malone envisions, and he is going to destroy it if he refuses to play to their strengths, and i hate watching knowing what this team could be in a couple of years.

Amen brother!

[skywalker33]

So, is "being a moron with no coaching skills" considered a problem ??