Moderators: bwgood77, lilfishi22, Qwigglez
Saberestar wrote:I don't want to watch Knight playing for the Suns again. Never.
He can be on the roster like Luol Deng on the Lakers... but on the court? No.Please.No.
lilfishi22 wrote:bwgood77 wrote:lilfishi22 wrote:IMO that's the best time for the Suns to get in. Sixers training staff isn't exactly known as having a great reputation and them giving up on Fultz doesn't necessarily mean he's a write-off. Phoenix happens to have the best medical staff in sports and if they sign off on Fultz, even if proper rehab takes time, I'd be all over a Fultz trade.
It's a lot of hypotheticals and extremely far fetched, but IF they got to this conclusion and decided to trade him for something we deemed reasonable and in a physical our training staff thought his shoulder was not a lost cause, sure. Though I don't see us having anything they'd want. I think they would want shooting, preferably a guard that is a good shooter (and obviously not Knight) and would not really have the need for picks or frontcourt players or particularly players who were not good shooters.
I agree. Just saying I'd take a chance if for some crazy reason they don't have interest in trying to rehab his shoulder
bwgood77 wrote:lilfishi22 wrote:bwgood77 wrote:
It's a lot of hypotheticals and extremely far fetched, but IF they got to this conclusion and decided to trade him for something we deemed reasonable and in a physical our training staff thought his shoulder was not a lost cause, sure. Though I don't see us having anything they'd want. I think they would want shooting, preferably a guard that is a good shooter (and obviously not Knight) and would not really have the need for picks or frontcourt players or particularly players who were not good shooters.
I agree. Just saying I'd take a chance if for some crazy reason they don't have interest in trying to rehab his shoulder
Yeah, and as mentioned in the other thread, I think his shoulder might be pretty much healed, but his shot is broken and it might be mental, so that makes gauging trade value even more tricky. And Colangelo will be more vested than anyone to make it work after giving up the #3 pick and a likely second top 5 or so pick this year or next to move up and take him. He could have saved that second pick and taken Tatum...to dump him any time in the next couple of years would be catastrophic...they are already roasting him in Philly.
GimmeDat wrote:This is pretty random and maybe this is completely against where you guys are in terms of direction, but would you do Knight and one of Bender or Chriss for Mirotic? Perhaps if a 3rd team was involved?
Where do you guys sit on Bender/Chriss? I know Bender's come along very slowly because he was so raw but is starting to show some progress, whereas Chriss had a strong rookie season but has regressed this season and his long term outlook might be a bit bleaker due to his poor IQ/feel/awareness.
Djedefre wrote:sunsbum wrote:I think if there was anytime to use a future pick of our own to move up in the draft I would do it this year. I don't see us in the lottery much longer.
Then i don't know what to say to you.
You've seen the game against Rockets, it's so obvious that we're incompetent, even against the team that's having not so good streak lately and missing it's star (mvp level) player. On top of that (for like 10000th time), we played one of the easiest schedules in the league, and are still just 4.5 games behind the worst team in the league.
We can see some progress from the majority of our youngsters , there's no denying that and it thrills me for sure, but let's just not get ahead of ourselves. We still lack elite coaching, shooting, defensive culture etc. We may not be the very bottom of this league, but certainly not a PO team, which you're suggesting with the second sentence.
That's not to say we won't have the need to use our assets and trade up, we very well may have to do so in order to get unique prospects such as Young/Bamba/Ayton/Doncic/Porter or do a trade for a disgruntled player or a star from an imploding team if the opportunity strikes.
GimmeDat wrote:This is pretty random and maybe this is completely against where you guys are in terms of direction, but would you do Knight and one of Bender or Chriss for Mirotic? Perhaps if a 3rd team was involved?
Where do you guys sit on Bender/Chriss? I know Bender's come along very slowly because he was so raw but is starting to show some progress, whereas Chriss had a strong rookie season but has regressed this season and his long term outlook might be a bit bleaker due to his poor IQ/feel/awareness.
sunsbum wrote:
Bazz is ready to bust out. I'm telling ya. Blazers can't afford to keep him.
Qwigglez wrote:I think all of this talk about Booker leaving sometime during his next contract has gotten too far ahead of itself. But given the theme my interpretation of what lilfishi is basically trying to say is, let's not get to the point where Booker wants to force his way out. Everyone on the tank brigade wants us to lose games while simultaneously build our youth and expect growth. We got a top 4 pick from the past two drafts and yet still want another. What happens if we get to 2020 and we take a step back? Bender, Quese, Jackson don't live up to lofty expectations, we ended up drafting the next Vesley, Tyrus Thomas, and MKG. It takes the rookie we draft in 2018 to make a huge leap in his 4th season, it'll be 2022 by then, Booker will be into his 3rd year into his max contract. He now demands a trade as he's been patient for almost 7 seasons. Is this what everyone wants? Let's try and emulate the success of the Wolves and Sixers yet don't see the tremendous amount of luck it took to get into that position.
Furthermore, Booker will be into his 4th season while this 2018 draftee will be... well a rookie. Booker had developed as rapidly as HOF'ers, are we expecting this rookie to contribute in his first season or even 2nd? As we've seen with our past two drafts, it may take longer, maybe much longer, twice as long. So in their 4th season, Booker will be in his 7th.
Frank Lee wrote:The question really becomes how long will we suck ??????
We are close to a decade of irrelevancy
jredsaz wrote:Cutter wrote:You are never winning a championship if Blake Griffin is your number 1 option.
Agreed. But what if he is your second or third?
NavLDO wrote:jredsaz wrote:Cutter wrote:You are never winning a championship if Blake Griffin is your number 1 option.
Agreed. But what if he is your second or third?
That's the thing, though. Who's to say 'what' # he is? See, if he came to the Suns this year, he's instantly be #1, due to his credibility. However, looking at his numbers, I'd pit him #2, at best, and if he continues to decline as he's showing this season, he's "#3" by next season..."#4" by the season after, and we are paying him, by that point, $34M, so he's still paid as a #1, but playing as a #3 or 4...that's bad business.
IMO, whoever ends up with Blake by the end of this season is stuck with him, and in a bad spot...
oddity wrote:NavLDO wrote:oddity wrote:
And I thought I was a blind optimist at times...
You all should know, by now, especially when I throw up (yeah, that's about right...vomit) 10 trade scenarios, I'm not really looking at the best trade value on either side; I'm just trying to get close. Add/Subtract whatever is needed, but also understand that Philly has a history (with other GMs, mind you) of trading solid pieces for peanuts...Evan Turner so they could reach the salary floor, dump the guy a few days later after they met the requirement, and a 2nd Rd pick. Why? Because he was not going to be the star they were hoping for, but he was still a pretty decent player in the right system.
Then, again, look at the 3 young promising players PLUS a first they traded for Bynum. The dude never suited up, and he was being upgraded by the Lakers by Howard, or so they thought. I know, hindsight, yada yada, but, they traded 3 players and a 1st for 'ridden hard and put away wet' 24 YO who had only played in 68% of available games at that point:
Anyway, add the '21 Mia pick, or ooh, our '18 2nd...they love 2nd Rd picks! Who cares. My point is, Bender would be more useful to them than Fultz will be; take pick status, hype, etc., ALL away, and look at their roster, and who is going to be more helpful to their cause both this year and in the future? A 3rd PG (They already have Simmons, of course, and a pretty darn good bench PG, and actually, he's ideal for them, in McConnell)? Or a guy who can defend anywhere from 2-4...maybe 5, depending, and is shooting the 3 at a clip of 39% from the PF position, but could just as easily play the SF position, depending upon their needs. That's what I was looking at.
If we offered what I offered, and McD explained it the way I just did (though I doubt GMs tell other GMs how to use players on THEI team), but regardless, if McD 'upsold' Bender's versatility and pointed out McConnell's ability as a bench PG, and them already having Simmons, I bet he could put a pkg together that would work for both sides. Remember, Fultz is helping them ZILCH this year, and they have designs on getting to the postseason; Bender would be a 'plus' addition to their roster and help them achieve their goal this year and in years future...
Your Bender vs Fultz argument is riddled w holes. Ben Simmons is a great weapon but mostly inside the paint; the Sixers clearly need more outside scoring. Fultz can provide this, if healthy, and be a far greater perimeter threat than Bender can. Bender's offensive arsenal is so unbelievably minuscule, with no pullups or stepbacks, and a very inconsistent turnaround. Equally large a problem is Bender's ball handling being too poor to break anyone down on the perimeter. Sure he may become a better catch and shoot threat than Fultz, but he will never have the offensive versatility off the bounce that Fultz displays.
Do the Sixers REALLY care enough to make the playoffs this year?? I highly doubt they were confident in making the playoffs before their great start to the season, let alone actually doing anything once they get to the postseason. They were focused on the future, and now you're postulating they would forget all about that in HALF A SEASON, give up on their prized rookie in his first year, and settle for a worse option in Bender when they already have a loaded front line. And who knows if JJ Reddick is going to stay or not. I just cannot believe any Sixers management thinking of Bender as better than Fultz, either individually or as a team fit, unless those injury concerns bare some serious fruit.
There is a line between thinking realistically and wishfully, and I try to avoid the later as best as I can. If I say things as preposterous as Bender being more valuable than Fultz enough, I may start believing it, and lose my grip on reality. We are terrible for a reason. Our record is as it is for a reason. Bender is written off by nearly everyone outside of the phoenix area for a reason. PERHAPS Bender can be a very good player one day, but he is still far too raw and uncomfortable on the floor to inspire confidence that he WILL BE. We cannot keep artificially inflating our mediocre players' values in our heads via hope; it only makes the brutal reality that much harder to witness.
NavLDO wrote:oddity wrote:NavLDO wrote:
You all should know, by now, especially when I throw up (yeah, that's about right...vomit) 10 trade scenarios, I'm not really looking at the best trade value on either side; I'm just trying to get close. Add/Subtract whatever is needed, but also understand that Philly has a history (with other GMs, mind you) of trading solid pieces for peanuts...Evan Turner so they could reach the salary floor, dump the guy a few days later after they met the requirement, and a 2nd Rd pick. Why? Because he was not going to be the star they were hoping for, but he was still a pretty decent player in the right system.
Then, again, look at the 3 young promising players PLUS a first they traded for Bynum. The dude never suited up, and he was being upgraded by the Lakers by Howard, or so they thought. I know, hindsight, yada yada, but, they traded 3 players and a 1st for 'ridden hard and put away wet' 24 YO who had only played in 68% of available games at that point:
Anyway, add the '21 Mia pick, or ooh, our '18 2nd...they love 2nd Rd picks! Who cares. My point is, Bender would be more useful to them than Fultz will be; take pick status, hype, etc., ALL away, and look at their roster, and who is going to be more helpful to their cause both this year and in the future? A 3rd PG (They already have Simmons, of course, and a pretty darn good bench PG, and actually, he's ideal for them, in McConnell)? Or a guy who can defend anywhere from 2-4...maybe 5, depending, and is shooting the 3 at a clip of 39% from the PF position, but could just as easily play the SF position, depending upon their needs. That's what I was looking at.
If we offered what I offered, and McD explained it the way I just did (though I doubt GMs tell other GMs how to use players on THEI team), but regardless, if McD 'upsold' Bender's versatility and pointed out McConnell's ability as a bench PG, and them already having Simmons, I bet he could put a pkg together that would work for both sides. Remember, Fultz is helping them ZILCH this year, and they have designs on getting to the postseason; Bender would be a 'plus' addition to their roster and help them achieve their goal this year and in years future...
Your Bender vs Fultz argument is riddled w holes. Ben Simmons is a great weapon but mostly inside the paint; the Sixers clearly need more outside scoring. Fultz can provide this, if healthy, and be a far greater perimeter threat than Bender can. Bender's offensive arsenal is so unbelievably minuscule, with no pullups or stepbacks, and a very inconsistent turnaround. Equally large a problem is Bender's ball handling being too poor to break anyone down on the perimeter. Sure he may become a better catch and shoot threat than Fultz, but he will never have the offensive versatility off the bounce that Fultz displays.
Do the Sixers REALLY care enough to make the playoffs this year?? I highly doubt they were confident in making the playoffs before their great start to the season, let alone actually doing anything once they get to the postseason. They were focused on the future, and now you're postulating they would forget all about that in HALF A SEASON, give up on their prized rookie in his first year, and settle for a worse option in Bender when they already have a loaded front line. And who knows if JJ Reddick is going to stay or not. I just cannot believe any Sixers management thinking of Bender as better than Fultz, either individually or as a team fit, unless those injury concerns bare some serious fruit.
There is a line between thinking realistically and wishfully, and I try to avoid the later as best as I can. If I say things as preposterous as Bender being more valuable than Fultz enough, I may start believing it, and lose my grip on reality. We are terrible for a reason. Our record is as it is for a reason. Bender is written off by nearly everyone outside of the phoenix area for a reason. PERHAPS Bender can be a very good player one day, but he is still far too raw and uncomfortable on the floor to inspire confidence that he WILL BE. We cannot keep artificially inflating our mediocre players' values in our heads via hope; it only makes the brutal reality that much harder to witness.
True. You make some good points, but up to last night, Bender had been making some great strides in his game. He went #4 for a lot of reasons that he just hasn't actualized yet. And if the Sixers really have no desire to get into the Playoffs, then you're point holds water. But something is going on with Fultz, so my thought process was that they might be hiding something as well as to why he's not playing, and maybe that might help our scenario some.
But on a larger scale, it's really hard to know where these guys are at in their development...Bender, Chriss, and JJ. their development is, to steal your phrase, 'riddled with holes'. To me, until we our long-term solution as our Floor General (I believe we are on #4 so far this season), and until they are allowed to develop as starters...with starters, playing starter minutes, it's impossible to know how or what the become, which is why I am such a big fan in trading either Chriss or Bender, and trading Warren or JJ, so we can progress toward the final solution...whatever that might be. This floundering around with no game-plan is both ridiculous and harmful to their development, IMO.
I'm all about keeping JJ and letting him develop; that's a great idea. Just convince Warren that he's going to be our 'spark' off the bench, and will split time between SF and small-ball PF to get his 30 MPG. If he's cool with that, great. If not, ask where he'd like to be traded, and we try to make that happen for him. Then trade (I'll say Bender this time...I go back and forth) and bring in a PG in that trade. Uh-oh...yep, another trade machine...
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y9v2r4bj
We help the Nets get out of Cap purgatory and take on Mozgov (yeah, I know, but it's a means to an end), we get Dinwiddie as our long-term future PG, and DeMarre Carroll as our bench SF to replace Warren. They get Warren, Bender, and the expiring Monroe to make the money. Picks can go eother direction, as needed, to make it fair; you or others decide. as you all know, I'm not the best at establishing trade value; I just make it work to accomplish the end goal.
So. We now have a our 'floor general' for years to come. Chriss plays 30 MPG at PF with starters, as does JJ, and we get to find out what we REALLY have in our young guys. If by next trade deadline, things aren't looking great, well, we adjust. Anyway, with this lineup, we end up with a lottery pick, and we pick, say Bamba slides to 6th.
Dinwiddie / Booker / JJ / Chriss / Bamba
Now we can develop our guys with a no-kidding plan of attack.
NavLDO wrote:Qwigglez wrote:I think all of this talk about Booker leaving sometime during his next contract has gotten too far ahead of itself. But given the theme my interpretation of what lilfishi is basically trying to say is, let's not get to the point where Booker wants to force his way out. Everyone on the tank brigade wants us to lose games while simultaneously build our youth and expect growth. We got a top 4 pick from the past two drafts and yet still want another. What happens if we get to 2020 and we take a step back? Bender, Quese, Jackson don't live up to lofty expectations, we ended up drafting the next Vesley, Tyrus Thomas, and MKG. It takes the rookie we draft in 2018 to make a huge leap in his 4th season, it'll be 2022 by then, Booker will be into his 3rd year into his max contract. He now demands a trade as he's been patient for almost 7 seasons. Is this what everyone wants? Let's try and emulate the success of the Wolves and Sixers yet don't see the tremendous amount of luck it took to get into that position.
Furthermore, Booker will be into his 4th season while this 2018 draftee will be... well a rookie. Booker had developed as rapidly as HOF'ers, are we expecting this rookie to contribute in his first season or even 2nd? As we've seen with our past two drafts, it may take longer, maybe much longer, twice as long. So in their 4th season, Booker will be in his 7th.
This is what get's me the most. As I alluded in the below thread, "that's what we want to emulate?"
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1643840&start=1880#p62131016
Not to mention...what success. They are a .500 team. Is that what everyone is calling success?
The Wolves?? Sure, they are successful. But ...
1) I'd rather not wait 14 seasons. That's just me. And...
2) I could list the utter ineptness of their drafting, but instead, I'll just list the link, since the list is too long...And...
3) We are following their blueprint, so I'm not quite sure what they are worried about...multiple HCs, failed draft picks...we're golden.
Bottom line, there's no difference to where the Wolves are today, to what we COULD be next season. (Our situation entered in parenthesis) The Wolves traded Lavine (Warren), Dunn (Bender), and the 7th Overall Pick (8th? 9th?) for a disgruntled All-Star (??) . They signed 32-YO and 29-YO 'very good players', and now, they are the 4th seed, I believe?
Awesome. We can do that as well. We have our KAT in Booker; we have our Wiggins in Chriss; we have our Dieng in Len, if we so choose. We also have JJ, and Miami's '18 Pick to build upon as well.
What we DON'T have is a 'Thibs' ; basically, a HC that players respect and want to come play for. I'm sure one exists out there, but I am not a HC 'knowledge guy', so maybe you all can put a bug in McD's ear. I'm not sure if Triano has that level of respect with players that Thibs had.
But alas, we lost last night, again, and Bender had a bad game, so I'm sure we are back to square one; we suck, our young players suck, and we must tank in order to ever have a chance to be successful. OK, fine, all our draft picks suck, so we should tank so we can get, like, a #4 overall pick, because this time, it will be different, just like JJ was going to come into the league a guns a blazin'...oops
Anyway, there's good arguments for both, and I would love to bring in a guy like Doncic or Young. But if we bring in Shai Gilgeous-Alexander instead, because our young talent was able to experience winning 10 more games, because we made adjustments at the trade deadline, then that is the direction I'd rather take, to be perfectly honest.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/shai-gilgeous-alexander-1.html
So, I'm not wrapped up in the hype of 'which' stud player we pick at which # in the draft, so long as he's helping fill the void at a position of need.
