3rd Annual Fire Kidd Thread - Volume 2 (Horst Interview pg 14)

[sidney lanier]

I don't buy the undercoached-superstar-on-a bad-team narrative being peddled here. Before you mentally send Giannis to the Island of Misfit Superstars to join Anthony Davis and Wolves-era Kevin Garnett, think about the trajectory of his development.

He came out almost as much of a project as Thon is now -- not a high school phenom like Garnett or a #1 can't-miss prospect like AD. Giannis has played at an All-Star level for about a year and a half. His ramp-up time was much greater. Unlike AD or KG, his own development has been one of the major factors affecting the herky-jerky development of the team around him.

Nobody likes wasted potential. I feel for a guy like the long-suffering Anthony Davis, who deserves better. As for Giannis, who is far more a work in progress on a team that is also a work in progress, the future is bright.

[bigkurty]

Going to copy this over from the last thread and leave this here to remind some people of just a few of the reasons we need to fire kidd:

Liggins and GP2 over Sterling
The Defense
Lineups and rotations
Has like two out of time out plays
Plays Giannis in 4th of blow outs on the front end of back to backs
Scored a 480 on SAT
Doesn’t understand basic math
End of game dumbass decisions
Promotes midrange shots over threes
Team does not improve year after year
He can’t make half time adjustments
He can’t make in game adjustments
His best move as a coach was spilling water
His personnel meddling has led to atrocious trades and draft picks (MCW over Lakers pick, Vasquez, last three first round picks)
No one smart covering or in the league thinks he is good
In articles defending him, they spend the first 1000 words talking about how trash he is
He doesn’t defend his players with the refs
Energy and effort never seem to improve
Zero player development if you remove Giannis
Minute management
The offense would be trash if you removed Giannis
We asked for years to tank to get an MVP caliber guy, now we stumble into one and we are still stuck in mediocrity
8th seed ftw

[Brewhoopfan]

I don't buy the undercoached-superstar-on-a bad-team narrative being peddled here. Before you mentally send Giannis to the Island of Misfit Superstars to join Anthony Davis and Wolves-era Kevin Garnett, think about the trajectory of his development.

He came out almost as much of a project as Thon is now -- not a high school phenom like Garnett or a #1 can't-miss prospect like AD. Giannis has played at an All-Star level for about a year and a half. His ramp-up time was much greater. Unlike AD or KG, his own development has been one of the major factors affecting the herky-jerky development of the team around him.

Nobody likes wasted potential. I feel for a guy like the long-suffering Anthony Davis, who deserves better. As for Giannis, who is far more a work in progress on a team that is also a work in progress, the future is bright.

He is "The Freak" for a reason. Simply through maximizing his physical gifts (working his tail off), he has turned himself into a true impact player - a superstar. I don't think Kidd has done him any favors in understanding the game on both ends. Particularly on defense, he relies mostly on instincts (which are good), but often still gets lost defensively. Unfortunately, he can't head to the gym after games and get better at this. He needs a good coach.

[mke_design]

I don't buy the undercoached-superstar-on-a bad-team narrative being peddled here. Before you mentally send Giannis to the Island of Misfit Superstars to join Anthony Davis and Wolves-era Kevin Garnett, think about the trajectory of his development.

He came out almost as much of a project as Thon is now -- not a high school phenom like Garnett or a #1 can't-miss prospect like AD. Giannis has played at an All-Star level for about a year and a half. His ramp-up time was much greater. Unlike AD or KG, his own development has been one of the major factors affecting the herky-jerky development of the team around him.

Nobody likes wasted potential. I feel for a guy like the long-suffering Anthony Davis, who deserves better. As for Giannis, who is far more a work in progress on a team that is also a work in progress, the future is bright.

I think the real question I have for you is, why do you think Jason Kidd is a good coach?


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[BuckFan25226]

I get wanting Kidd fired, and I would be absolutely fine with it. However the issue I see reading this board comes down to 2 things. Please correct me if I'm off on this, I don't have near the time to analyze who says what about each topic. But here it is....

1.) We all clearly realize and agree this roster is severely flawed outside of a few players.

2.) Kidd's rotations are mind boggling sometimes, and our defense and the scheme can be infuriating to watch.


HOWEVER, the general consensus I gather is everyone appears to be bitching non stop about our roster(i.e Thon, GP2, Kilpatrick, Liggins, Terry, Henson, DJ, Mirza, Vaughn). Rightfully so. Just typing that out was painful in & of itself.

on the other hand, I continue to read Kidd is a horrible coach and he must be fired.

I ended up going back and skimmed the 2017-18 win prediction thread. Most people were in the 42 to 47 win range. We are on pace for 43 wins, with Jabari coming back, and assuming we stay relatively healthy, I still believe we will win 44-47 games. Pretty much right where most of the posters in that thread thought.

[DingleJerry]

I wouldn't call the roster drastically or fatally flawed. You're starting lineup is good and seemingly fits well. And if I recall it checks out as one of the best units in the league.

you then have a solid backup in Brogdon to cover both G positions. Can also move Snell down to cover the backup 3 minutes. So, essentially your top 6 is darn good, including a top 5 player and two 3rd tier stars just below ASG level.

All they are is a backup big short, I can't believe it's been two months and they haven't gotten someone in to take Thon's mins. And as of now you need another 3/4 combo backup since Jabari isn't available, but once he is that area is basically covered too. big pic you're missing two backups in a big and a 3/4 combo backup so that Middleton doesn't have to play the 4 (this is Mirza's spot but injured). I guess I'm just saying it's not fatally flawed or horribly constructed, the top 6 fit together very well if used properly. Even as is they should be more around the 4/5 seed and not the 8.

I of course see the depth issue but if you look around the league there is plenty of holes in rosters that teams work around, almost no roster is perfect outside of GSW. For the love of god, just get a full size backup big in and see how much it helps. And I think they've just been knowingly biting hte bullet on the 3/4 backup situation since they know Jabari is back soon. Personally, I wouldn't have like 11 backups Gs (when you already have solid guys in front of them) and would have found a bigger wing type backup but now we're 2-3 weeks from Jabari so the point is moot now. Get a full size big and Jabari back and then I don't think you can say the roster is really flawed at all. You're solidly 8 deep with a good G, wing, and big backups. And then Delly, Thon, Brown after that. No excuses at that point.

[Chapter29]

Thon Delly Snell line ups need to stop being a thing.

Delly shouldn't see the court. Thon shouldn't see the court but there we are super thin so maybe.

[M-C-G]

Thon Delly Snell line ups need to stop being a thing.

Delly shouldn't see the court. Thon shouldn't see the court but there we are super thin so maybe.

If Thon is going to see the court, they need to stop p,aging him inside where he gums everything up. Put him in the corner he draws just enough attention and has been hitting that three but we have completely abandoned it. Just like that Henson and Giannis high low thing in favor of Delly jamming a pass to Brogdon on the cut over and over and over.


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[yannisk]

I get wanting Kidd fired, and I would be absolutely fine with it. However the issue I see reading this board comes down to 2 things. Please correct me if I'm off on this, I don't have near the time to analyze who says what about each topic. But here it is....

1.) We all clearly realize and agree this roster is severely flawed outside of a few players.

2.) Kidd's rotations are mind boggling sometimes, and our defense and the scheme can be infuriating to watch.


HOWEVER, the general consensus I gather is everyone appears to be bitching non stop about our roster(i.e Thon, GP2, Kilpatrick, Liggins, Terry, Henson, DJ, Mirza, Vaughn). Rightfully so. Just typing that out was painful in & of itself.

on the other hand, I continue to read Kidd is a horrible coach and he must be fired.

I ended up going back and skimmed the 2017-18 win prediction thread. Most people were in the 42 to 47 win range. We are on pace for 43 wins, with Jabari coming back, and assuming we stay relatively healthy, I still believe we will win 44-47 games. Pretty much right where most of the posters in that thread thought.

Forget record and roster for a moment, we play bad basketball. Watch a team with a good coach and then watch the Bucks

Now regarding record and expectations

Expectations are not in vacuum, there are an extrapolation of where we were last year (Kidd was coach last year too and the roster was similar). So the low result of last year carry on as a baseline for this year
Nobody was expecting Giannis to make such a big jump in production again (29ppg)
We got Bledsoe for the supposingly bad fit Monroe
Our record is actually flattering, we have the SRS of a much worse team (20th)

on top of us in the standings are teams that don't look that talented but play better basketball
we are flirting of losing the playoffs with an mvp candidate and two amost all-star guys

The roster has admittedly limitations, not enough quality frontcourt players and many limited backcourt players at the end of the bench. But I believe players are not put in the best position to succeed. I don't want to go on for each case but Delly appears a scrub while he had a role and almost got a ring in his previous team, last year Henson, Monroe, PLumlee were alternating between first team and DNP, Vaughn will play a game (often good) and never plays again for 3 months etc

[Chapter29]

Thon Delly Snell line ups need to stop being a thing.

Delly shouldn't see the court. Thon shouldn't see the court but there we are super thin so maybe.

If Thon is going to see the court, they need to stop p,aging him inside where he gums everything up. Put him in the corner he draws just enough attention and has been hitting that three but we have completely abandoned it. Just like that Henson and Giannis high low thing in favor of Delly jamming a pass to Brogdon on the cut over and over and over.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yep. I'd stick him in that corner and force that 3 ball a little bit.

[thomchatt3rton]

I get wanting Kidd fired, and I would be absolutely fine with it. However the issue I see reading this board comes down to 2 things. Please correct me if I'm off on this, I don't have near the time to analyze who says what about each topic. But here it is....

1.) We all clearly realize and agree this roster is severely flawed outside of a few players.

2.) Kidd's rotations are mind boggling sometimes, and our defense and the scheme can be infuriating to watch.


HOWEVER, the general consensus I gather is everyone appears to be bitching non stop about our roster(i.e Thon, GP2, Kilpatrick, Liggins, Terry, Henson, DJ, Mirza, Vaughn). Rightfully so. Just typing that out was painful in & of itself.

on the other hand, I continue to read Kidd is a horrible coach and he must be fired.

I ended up going back and skimmed the 2017-18 win prediction thread. Most people were in the 42 to 47 win range. We are on pace for 43 wins, with Jabari coming back, and assuming we stay relatively healthy, I still believe we will win 44-47 games. Pretty much right where most of the posters in that thread thought.

Good point. There are constant and endless complaints about the talent (quote unquote) on the roster, but somehow when people sum our problems up into one idea, it's not the roster, it's Kidd that's public enemy #1. Interesting tension there.

Also- very good point about the preseason prediction. Good to be reminded of that and be given that perspective (also it illustrates how people felt about the quality of this roster before #firekidd became such a dominant ideology). Expectations shift over time and frustration fuels those shifts. Good to be reminded.

These are points worth thinking about for anyone. Not as any kind of refutation to #firekidd, but maybe they might have a refining effect.

[jr lucosa]

Good point. There are constant and endless complaints about the talent (quote unquote) on the roster, but somehow when people sum our problems up into one idea, it's not the roster, it's Kidd that's public enemy #1. Interesting tension there.

I mean, who do you think is responsible for most these roster moves? Horst and lame duck Hammond? I'd bet not.

[sidney lanier]

I don't buy the undercoached-superstar-on-a bad-team narrative being peddled here. Before you mentally send Giannis to the Island of Misfit Superstars to join Anthony Davis and Wolves-era Kevin Garnett, think about the trajectory of his development.

He came out almost as much of a project as Thon is now -- not a high school phenom like Garnett or a #1 can't-miss prospect like AD. Giannis has played at an All-Star level for about a year and a half. His ramp-up time was much greater. Unlike AD or KG, his own development has been one of the major factors affecting the herky-jerky development of the team around him.

Nobody likes wasted potential. I feel for a guy like the long-suffering Anthony Davis, who deserves better. As for Giannis, who is far more a work in progress on a team that is also a work in progress, the future is bright.

I think the real question I have for you is, why do you think Jason Kidd is a good coach?


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Funny how often I'm asked to justify my position. I've done it several times in this thread, and many times in others, and in detail. Go back and look if you're interested.

These Fire Kidd threads are becoming a little repetitive. Kidd haters have entrenched positions, and confirmation bias prevents them from looking at things objectively, which leaves nothing but the same old points repeated over and over, and posters re-posting their own list of indictments against Kidd.

As things become ossified like this, discussion is no longer discussion -- just religious disputation with adherents of the Gospel of Anti-Kidd. At least us heretics only get attacked as misguided and not burned at the stake, which is something.

[BuckFan25226]

I get wanting Kidd fired, and I would be absolutely fine with it. However the issue I see reading this board comes down to 2 things. Please correct me if I'm off on this, I don't have near the time to analyze who says what about each topic. But here it is....

1.) We all clearly realize and agree this roster is severely flawed outside of a few players.

2.) Kidd's rotations are mind boggling sometimes, and our defense and the scheme can be infuriating to watch.


HOWEVER, the general consensus I gather is everyone appears to be bitching non stop about our roster(i.e Thon, GP2, Kilpatrick, Liggins, Terry, Henson, DJ, Mirza, Vaughn). Rightfully so. Just typing that out was painful in & of itself.

on the other hand, I continue to read Kidd is a horrible coach and he must be fired.

I ended up going back and skimmed the 2017-18 win prediction thread. Most people were in the 42 to 47 win range. We are on pace for 43 wins, with Jabari coming back, and assuming we stay relatively healthy, I still believe we will win 44-47 games. Pretty much right where most of the posters in that thread thought.

Forget record and roster for a moment, we play bad basketball. Watch a team with a good coach and then watch the Bucks

Now regarding record and expectations

Expectations are not in vacuum, there are an extrapolation of where we were last year (Kidd was coach last year too and the roster was similar). So the low result of last year carry on as a baseline for this year
Nobody was expecting Giannis to make such a big jump in production again (29ppg)
We got Bledsoe for the supposingly bad fit Monroe
Our record is actually flattering, we have the SRS of a much worse team (20th)

on top of us in the standings are teams that don't look that talented but play better basketball
we are flirting of losing the playoffs with an mvp candidate and two amost all-star guys

The roster has admittedly limitations, not enough quality frontcourt players and many limited backcourt players at the end of the bench. But I believe players are not put in the best position to succeed. I don't want to go on for each case but Delly appears a scrub while he had a role and almost got a ring in his previous team, last year Henson, Monroe, PLumlee were alternating between first team and DNP, Vaughn will play a game (often good) and never plays again for 3 months etc

I don't really disagree with any of what you're saying. However bad players generally play bad basketball. Thon isn't just a bad basketball player, he is a terrible basketball player. Liggins, GP2, Mirza, DJ, Vaughn, Kilpatrick, Mumford, Terry(At 40). These players are simply not good and equate to consistently bad basketball. These are not players that you will see in ANY NBA rotation that is competing for a Conference or NBA championship.

[bigkurty]

Funny how the people who point out tons of actual real and relevant reasons why Kidd is a bad coach are the ones who cant look at things objectively in your eye Sid.

[Prez]

Over halfway through the season and we have the point differential of a 37 win team, 21st in the league behind the Knicks/Hornets and just above the Mavs/Nets. 24th in DRTG. 20th in SRS. We're the 8th seed and lucky to even be there.

"Kidd haters" are the people who actually factor in the performance of this team and the way they play on both ends into their evaluation of Kidd.

[bigkurty]

I don't really disagree with any of what you're saying. However bad players generally play bad basketball. Thon isn't just a bad basketball player, he is a terrible basketball player. Liggins, GP2, Mirza, DJ, Vaughn, Kilpatrick, Mumford, Terry(At 40). These players are simply not good and equate to consistently bad basketball. These are not players that you will see in ANY NBA rotation that is competing for a Conference or NBA championship.

This is true. At the end of the day though you have two separate issues that both need to be fixed. We need better depth and we need a better coach. Both issues are bad but I don't want to use one issue as an excuse to let the other one slide especially when Kidd is the reason we have some of those players. Look at that list.

Liggins - Kidd wanted to keep over Green
GP2 - Kidds buddy's Kid
Mirza - represented by Kidds agent
DJ - selected by the secret trip to Cali crew which included Kidd and Thorn
Vaughn - Kidds pick
Kilpatric -15th guy, who really cares
Mumford - two way guy who really cares
Terry - Kidds buddy begging teams to allow him to get to a 20 year career

So yeah Kidd's finger prints are all over this roster construction

[sidney lanier]

Funny how the people who point out tons of actual real and relevant reasons why Kidd is a bad coach are the ones who cant look at things objectively in your eye Sid.

You mean like the alleged 480 SAT score and the "fact" that no smart people support him? Is that the "real and relevant" world you live in?

[VooDoo7]

He (Giannis) came out almost as much of a project as Thon is now

[bigkurty]

Funny how the people who point out tons of actual real and relevant reasons why Kidd is a bad coach are the ones who cant look at things objectively in your eye Sid.

You mean like the alleged 480 SAT score and the "fact" that no smart people support him? Is that the "real and relevant" world you live in?

Say you remove those two things,do you agree with the rest of the list then? Cause that is still a ton of reasons