3rd Annual Fire Kidd Thread - Volume 2 (Horst Interview pg 14)

[Je K]

The roster is definitely flawed but so is every single NBA teams' roster outside of Golden State and maybe a few others. It's the coaching staff's job to to play to a flawed team's strengths while minimizing its weaknesses. It's clear that Kidd and his staff have not found a way to do this. The forced trap scheme built to make the defense scramble only serves to confuse the players and tire them out (HENCE A LACK OF ENERGY AND EFFORT). We have the talent (especially in the starting lineup) to switch everything, simplifying the defense for our players who clearly cannot execute the trap scheme. On offense, it appears that when we do run actual sets, they are ineffective and usually just turn into Giannis bailing us out. The impact of roster weaknesses are minimized by good coaching. It doesn't seem that Kidd does much to minimize our weaknesses and instead, he actually magnifies them. That's bad coaching.

[sidney lanier]

He (Giannis) came out almost as much of a project as Thon is now

Watch on YouTube

[thomchatt3rton]

Good point. There are constant and endless complaints about the talent (quote unquote) on the roster, but somehow when people sum our problems up into one idea, it's not the roster, it's Kidd that's public enemy #1. Interesting tension there.

I mean, who do you think is responsible for most these roster moves? Horst and lame duck Hammond? I'd bet not.

Kidd's mysterious and very possibly malignant influence on FO decisions is a legit complaint. But I think it's worth remembering that the exact nature and extent of his influence isn't really known to us (nor has his influence seemed to have remained static).

I'm not saying you're wrong, but how do you know who is to blame for which roster move? Thon, for example, seemed to me to be Hammond's guy. I might be wrong, but DJ seemed like Horst's guy (that's 2 first round picks in a row- a not-insignificant chunk of the roster btw). Who's responsible for the Bledsoe trade in your opinion? I mean, I don't know.

I think as we criticize Kidd, we owe it to ourselves to be more discriminating with our critiques than this.

[VooDoo7]

Funny how the people who point out tons of actual real and relevant reasons why Kidd is a bad coach are the ones who cant look at things objectively in your eye Sid.

You mean like the alleged 480 SAT score and the "fact" that no smart people support him? Is that the "real and relevant" world you live in?

Kurty literally just posted a huge list of reasons Kidd is a bad coach. And when you are asked why you think he's a good coach, all you can muster up is "I already said, go back in this thread and read it".

And this is why people call you a troll.

[DingleJerry]

Funny how the people who point out tons of actual real and relevant reasons why Kidd is a bad coach are the ones who cant look at things objectively in your eye Sid.

You mean like the alleged 480 SAT score and the "fact" that no smart people support him? Is that the "real and relevant" world you live in?

So after all this, those are your two takeaways for basketball reasons on why Kidd is a bad coach,really? Legit bball things are hammered on repeatedly. it's not just hyperbole stuff like this

[sidney lanier]

Funny how the people who point out tons of actual real and relevant reasons why Kidd is a bad coach are the ones who cant look at things objectively in your eye Sid.

You mean like the alleged 480 SAT score and the "fact" that no smart people support him? Is that the "real and relevant" world you live in?

Kurty literally just posted a huge list of reasons Kidd is a bad coach. And when you are asked why you think he's a good coach, all you can muster up is "I already said, go back in this thread and read it".

And this is why people call you a troll.

The inarticulate will always play the troll card when they think they're losing an argument. I'd go back and find the detailed posts I made if I had the time and knew how to search this damn site. But I've made long posts on this subject so often, and with so little response from those to whom the matter of Kidd is settled, that I'm not wasting my time doing it again.

[bigkurty]

The Inarticulate

[sidney lanier]

Funny how the people who point out tons of actual real and relevant reasons why Kidd is a bad coach are the ones who cant look at things objectively in your eye Sid.

You mean like the alleged 480 SAT score and the "fact" that no smart people support him? Is that the "real and relevant" world you live in?

Say you remove those two things,do you agree with the rest of the list then? Cause that is still a ton of reasons

I just don't buy the importance of criticisms of Kidd that are transient and transactional in nature. I don't care whether his rotations are goofy in January 2017 or January 2018, because I don't see them as germane to the only thing that matters, which is progress toward contender status.

I tend to agree with this guy:

But despite all the microlevel flak Kidd gets for his in-game decision-making, the Bucks actually profile as a well-coached team when you zoom out to 20,000 feet, with a style that accentuates their strengths and hides their weaknesses as best it can. That's impressive, considering five years ago Kidd was an integral role player on the New York Knicks, and, at 44 years old, is still learning on the job with a team that's yet to actualize the entirety of its potential for reasons outside any one individual's control.

[KidA24]

Good point. There are constant and endless complaints about the talent (quote unquote) on the roster, but somehow when people sum our problems up into one idea, it's not the roster, it's Kidd that's public enemy #1. Interesting tension there.

Let's compare the Bucks roster to the Spurs.

Here's there top 12, by total minutes played, Kawhi falls in at #14, fyi.
Aldridge
Patty Mills
Pau Gasol
Kyle Anderson
Bryn Forbes
Danny Green
Dejounte Murray (he of a .421 eFG%)
Rudy Gay
Manu Ginobili
Davis Bertans
Brandon Paul
Tony Parker

Now, tell me, Aldridge or Pau would start for the Bucks in place of Henson, but would anyone else?

Do you think John Henson would be asked to initiate the offense in San Antonio?

While not having all-stars at every position makes it more difficult, the offensive and defensive schemes consistently put players in positions they are unable to succeed in, and prioritizes the absolute wrong things.

[VooDoo7]

You mean like the alleged 480 SAT score and the "fact" that no smart people support him? Is that the "real and relevant" world you live in?

Kurty literally just posted a huge list of reasons Kidd is a bad coach. And when you are asked why you think he's a good coach, all you can muster up is "I already said, go back in this thread and read it".

And this is why people call you a troll.

The inarticulate will always play the troll card when they think they're losing an argument. I'd go back and find the detailed posts I made if I had the time and knew how to search this damn site. But I've made long posts on this subject so often, and with so little response from those to whom the matter of Kidd is settled, that I'm not wasting my time doing it again.

Well you've spent enough time already this morning typing out multiple posts. Why don't you take 2 quick minutes and just give us a list of why Kidd is a good coach.

[VooDoo7]

:lol: The Inarticulate

It has to be frustrating for him to continually get knocked off his high horse by us dumb dumbs.

[Fresh_Prince12]

Good point. There are constant and endless complaints about the talent (quote unquote) on the roster, but somehow when people sum our problems up into one idea, it's not the roster, it's Kidd that's public enemy #1. Interesting tension there.

Let's compare the Bucks roster to the Spurs.

Here's there top 12, by total minutes played, Kawhi falls in at #14, fyi.
Aldridge
Patty Mills
Pau Gasol
Kyle Anderson
Bryn Forbes
Danny Green
Dejounte Murray (he of a .421 eFG%)
Rudy Gay
Manu Ginobili
Davis Bertans
Brandon Paul
Tony Parker

Now, tell me, Aldridge or Pau would start for the Bucks in place of Henson, but would anyone else?

Do you think John Henson would be asked to initiate the offense in San Antonio?

While not having all-stars at every position makes it more difficult, the offensive and defensive schemes consistently put players in positions they are unable to succeed in, and prioritizes the absolute wrong things.

The roster is definitely flawed but so is every single NBA teams' roster outside of Golden State and maybe a few others. It's the coaching staff's job to to play to a flawed team's strengths while minimizing its weaknesses. It's clear that Kidd and his staff have not found a way to do this. The forced trap scheme built to make the defense scramble only serves to confuse the players and tire them out (HENCE A LACK OF ENERGY AND EFFORT). We have the talent (especially in the starting lineup) to switch everything, simplifying the defense for our players who clearly cannot execute the trap scheme. On offense, it appears that when we do run actual sets, they are ineffective and usually just turn into Giannis bailing us out. The impact of roster weaknesses are minimized by good coaching. It doesn't seem that Kidd does much to minimize our weaknesses and instead, he actually magnifies them. That's bad coaching.

These two post deserves more and 1s.

[KidA24]

But despite all the microlevel flak Kidd gets for his in-game decision-making, the Bucks actually profile as a well-coached team when you zoom out to 20,000 feet, with a style that accentuates their strengths and hides their weaknesses as best it can. That's impressive, considering five years ago Kidd was an integral role player on the New York Knicks, and, at 44 years old, is still learning on the job with a team that's yet to actualize the entirety of its potential for reasons outside any one individual's control.

What strengths does it accentuate?
What weaknesses does it hide?

Weaknesses it accentuates:
Offensively:
- John Henson & Thon Maker elbow touches.
- Long 2-pointers
- Khris Middleton Isolations
-
Defensively:
- Constant switching puts players out of position for defensive rebounds
- Giannis guarding on the perimeter (he's much better closer to the basket, or guarding a non-threat and utilizing his amazing help-skills
- Blitzing the pick 'n roll against non-shooters (like Rubio)

[sidney lanier]

But despite all the microlevel flak Kidd gets for his in-game decision-making, the Bucks actually profile as a well-coached team when you zoom out to 20,000 feet, with a style that accentuates their strengths and hides their weaknesses as best it can. That's impressive, considering five years ago Kidd was an integral role player on the New York Knicks, and, at 44 years old, is still learning on the job with a team that's yet to actualize the entirety of its potential for reasons outside any one individual's control.

What strengths does it accentuate?
What weaknesses does it hide?

Weaknesses it accentuates:
Offensively:
- John Henson & Thon Maker elbow touches.
- Long 2-pointers
- Khris Middleton Isolations
-
Defensively:
- Constant switching puts players out of position for defensive rebounds
- Giannis guarding on the perimeter (he's much better closer to the basket, or guarding a non-threat and utilizing his amazing help-skills
- Blitzing the pick 'n roll against non-shooters (like Rubio)

Kidd knows what he has, which is a team filled with bad shooters and slow feet. What this guy is saying, I think, is that the way you hide the weakness of a bad-shooting team is to play defense in such a way as to maximize open court opportunities, switching and trapping. The tradeoffs this involves -- like giving up too many offensive rebounds -- have a cost, but maybe the cost is worth paying.

[sidney lanier]

:lol: The Inarticulate

It has to be frustrating for him to continually get knocked off his high horse by us dumb dumbs.

Be fair. I'm not the one who brings up SAT scores.

[VooDoo7]

:lol: The Inarticulate

It has to be frustrating for him to continually get knocked off his high horse by us dumb dumbs.

Be fair. I'm not the one who brings up SAT scores.

Sid, the SAT score is probably reason #47 why Kidd shouldn't be a head coach.

[thomchatt3rton]

Good point. There are constant and endless complaints about the talent (quote unquote) on the roster, but somehow when people sum our problems up into one idea, it's not the roster, it's Kidd that's public enemy #1. Interesting tension there.

Let's compare the Bucks roster to the Spurs.

Here's there top 12, by total minutes played, Kawhi falls in at #14, fyi.
Aldridge
Patty Mills
Pau Gasol
Kyle Anderson
Bryn Forbes
Danny Green
Dejounte Murray (he of a .421 eFG%)
Rudy Gay
Manu Ginobili
Davis Bertans
Brandon Paul
Tony Parker

Now, tell me, Aldridge or Pau would start for the Bucks in place of Henson, but would anyone else?

Do you think John Henson would be asked to initiate the offense in San Antonio?

While not having all-stars at every position makes it more difficult, the offensive and defensive schemes consistently put players in positions they are unable to succeed in, and prioritizes the absolute wrong things.

Im not trying to set up a dichotomy that its “roster or coaching” and we have to pick one (on the contrary it is other people who have made that dichotomy and picked one). I am arguing against the strict either/or dichotomy.

I get what you were saying-that San Antonio roster ain’t much on paper compared to their record. But there are a ton of guys there who would be upgrades to our roster (everyone would admit our talent is top-heavy, and that our problems are bench and center rotation, so I’m not sure why youre asking about starting lineup specifically in your comparison- seems to load the question a bit).

I’m not trying to absolve the coaching staff. Theyre culpable. I am more interested in refining or finetuning the arguments/discourse here on the board.


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[Je K]

I would argue that the team is shooting poorly because its shooters are being grossly misused. Snell is a very good spot up shooter who is shooting fewer than four 3s a game. In comparison, Eric Gordon is shooting nearly 10(!!!) 3s per game at a significantly worse clip while only playing 3 more minutes than Snell. In the same way, Middleton is consistently being used to create offense which is clearly not his strength. He's shown he can be a very effective shooter when he isn't forced to create his own shot. Instead, Kidd forces him into iso situations where he often takes very contested shots. Middleton is a great example of a player who would thrive in an offensive system allowing him into a more off-ball role instead of running the offense.

[yannisk]

Since none of the Kidd apologists present any argument why he is a good coach, I will play devil's advocate and I will defend Kidd while I am still firmly in the "fire Kidd" camp (or more precisely throw Kidd in the fire camp)

So my question is: In 2014-2015 the first year of Kidd's tenure Bucks played quite well. The defense was quite successful and offensively we played a pleasant game with lots of teamplay and extra passing. This was after the disastrous 2013-2014 season so it was obviously the result of the work of Kidd and his assistants.

and before somebody says that the league figured out the extra trapping defense. What about the offense? we did not have amazing offensive talent we had though some veteran players like Dudley, Zaza even Ersan that had basketball iq and experience.

So if Kidd is clueless how come he started looking a lot better than he does now?

[Prez]

Who on this board is actually arguing the problems with this team are entirely coaching related and that this roster doesn't have flaws?