3rd Annual Fire Kidd Thread - Volume 2 (Horst Interview pg 14)

[sidney lanier]

Well you've spent enough time already this morning typing out multiple posts. Why don't you take 2 quick minutes and just give us a list of why Kidd is a good coach.

OK OK. Here's an old post that explains where I am on the subject of Jason Kidd

Please Sir, in my life even if i love someone, even if he is a guy who was my idol, even if his name is Giannis i will never change the reality or i will never protect him, i maybe be the first to point out his mistakes, you maybe need to start doing it if you don't, it helps, trust me, calling people out for not saying a good word about Jason when 9 out 10 times he is taking the wrong decisions say nothing when comes from a guy who never even once admited his HS mistakes.

With respect and sorry if i will not respond to you back because i have a plane to catch.
Salute.

I wrote:

I know you try to be intellectually honest in your critiques of Kidd, which is one reason I like you, but you should afford me the same courtesy. The assumption that I or JTK or the few other Kidd defenders are just taking a contrarian position because we like being contrarian is false.

I can't speak for others' motives, but I can tell you mine in defending Kidd. I like this to be a place of intelligent basketball discussion. I don't like post after post of "Kidd is a moron," because these posts don't foster discussion. I don't like the "looks like nobody here likes Kidd" posts because they suppress intelligent discussion. I don't like "hope we lose so Kidd gets fired" posts, because I never hope we lose.

If I don't often point out in-game decisions that appear to me to be questionable, it's because I'm taking the long view. We are still a developmental stage company. No matter what the marketing slogans say, this is not our time. But that time is getting closer, maybe a year or two away, and I'm hoping that every game is a lesson learned for coach as well as for players.

As I've posted over and over, the NBA is a players' league, and the influence of the coach is important only to the extent that it helps the players themselves develop individually and as a cohesive unit. The notion that a David Blatt-type theoretician would get this team where it wants to be sooner than a relatively non-interventionist coach such as Kidd is seriously flawed, although many here believe it. The ability to draw up a double-screen or back-cut play on a whiteboard is nice, but it's nicer to have players who are figuring out how and when to employ these strategies based on what they are learning about themselves and their teammates every night, even when they make mistakes. Especially when they make mistakes.

But since you think I never criticize Kidd, here's a New Year's present just for you: he should not have thrown a cookie at his wife.

[yannisk]

I’m not trying to absolve the coaching staff. Theyre culpable. I am more interested in refining or finetuning the arguments/discourse here on the board.

If I understand correctly and your argument is that is not all Kidd's fault, why not fire Kidd? If we have a mediocre roster and a mediocre coach let's start with the easy part and replace the mediocre coach. You cannot replace an entire roster instantly. Let's start by putting in place a good coach, who will also help us evaluate better our roster.

[thomchatt3rton]

The roster is definitely flawed but so is every single NBA teams' roster outside of Golden State and maybe a few others. It's the coaching staff's job to to play to a flawed team's strengths while minimizing its weaknesses. It's clear that Kidd and his staff have not found a way to do this. The forced trap scheme built to make the defense scramble only serves to confuse the players and tire them out (HENCE A LACK OF ENERGY AND EFFORT). We have the talent (especially in the starting lineup) to switch everything, simplifying the defense for our players who clearly cannot execute the trap scheme. On offense, it appears that when we do run actual sets, they are ineffective and usually just turn into Giannis bailing us out. The impact of roster weaknesses are minimized by good coaching. It doesn't seem that Kidd does much to minimize our weaknesses and instead, he actually magnifies them. That's bad coaching.

Well I don’t disagree with your larger points, I do think you are underrating how flawed this roster is. Our bench has to be bottom 3-5 in the league. And is there a worse center rotation in the league? I can’t think of one. We have a serious lack of 3pt shooters and no back-up wings.

I just dont think its accurate to describe our flaws as typical or average for “most teams except GSW”. I think things are much worse than that.


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[Prez]

If I don't often point out in-game decisions that appear to me to be questionable, it's because I'm taking the long view. We are still a developmental stage company. No matter what the marketing slogans say, this is not our time. But that time is getting closer, maybe a year or two away, and I'm hoping that every game is a lesson learned for coach as well as for players.

This is the average age players with 100+ min. The Bucks are the 11th oldest team in the league, 3rd oldest in the conference. Of our top 8 in minutes this year, 6/8 are 25+ years old, in their primes. The other is Giannis, already a superstar at 23 years old. Thon is the only one truly young (debatable) and raw.

This young/developing team excuse is complete BS.

[sidney lanier]

This young/developing team excuse is complete BS.

Don't conflate those two things (young and developing). See a lot of playoff experience in the Bucks locker room?

[yannisk]

Before the Bucks, Kidd coached the Nets. Was he considered successful there? Does he have any other coaching experience?

[Prez]

This young/developing team excuse is complete BS.

Don't conflate those two things (young and developing). See a lot of playoff experience in the Bucks locker room?

Of the 14 players with 100+ minutes this year, 10 have played legit rotation minutes in the playoffs at some point in their career.

This team isn't that young, and there are plenty of guys with experience and the ability to win now.

[DingleJerry]

The roster is definitely flawed but so is every single NBA teams' roster outside of Golden State and maybe a few others. It's the coaching staff's job to to play to a flawed team's strengths while minimizing its weaknesses. It's clear that Kidd and his staff have not found a way to do this. The forced trap scheme built to make the defense scramble only serves to confuse the players and tire them out (HENCE A LACK OF ENERGY AND EFFORT). We have the talent (especially in the starting lineup) to switch everything, simplifying the defense for our players who clearly cannot execute the trap scheme. On offense, it appears that when we do run actual sets, they are ineffective and usually just turn into Giannis bailing us out. The impact of roster weaknesses are minimized by good coaching. It doesn't seem that Kidd does much to minimize our weaknesses and instead, he actually magnifies them. That's bad coaching.

Well I don’t disagree with your larger points, I do think you are underrating how flawed this roster is. Our bench has to be bottom 3-5 in the league. And is there a worse center rotation in the league? I can’t think of one. We have a serious lack of 3pt shooters and no back-up wings.

I just dont think its accurate to describe our flaws as typical or average for “most teams except GSW”. I think things are much worse than that.


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They've been tweaking the roster for 3 years now and the results are the same. MCW trade, then Monroe, then Bledsoe. Coaching is the common denominator.

Also, I was just watching the likes of Johnny O'bryant play quality mins for Charlotte, I don't know if it was a fluke or how he normally does but he looked good today. For all the our bench is terrible, here is what Cha was running out. Frank, MCW, Lamb, Johnny, MKG. All players mocked by this board quite a bit. That was their lineup, without a Giannis Bledsoe or Mid to help carry it.

Detroit was running Ish Smith, Anthony Tolliver, Reggie Bullock, Kennard, and some Eric Moreland. There is nothing spectacular in these examples, just like none in ours beside Brogdon. Yet the ball moved around and guys like Bullock and Tolliver were hitting 3s because their coach actually understands wide open 3s are a good thing.

Besides bench being an issue, which it is. Not many teams have our starters and Giannis. That should go a long way in hiding the bench if coached properly

[Je K]

The roster is definitely flawed but so is every single NBA teams' roster outside of Golden State and maybe a few others. It's the coaching staff's job to to play to a flawed team's strengths while minimizing its weaknesses. It's clear that Kidd and his staff have not found a way to do this. The forced trap scheme built to make the defense scramble only serves to confuse the players and tire them out (HENCE A LACK OF ENERGY AND EFFORT). We have the talent (especially in the starting lineup) to switch everything, simplifying the defense for our players who clearly cannot execute the trap scheme. On offense, it appears that when we do run actual sets, they are ineffective and usually just turn into Giannis bailing us out. The impact of roster weaknesses are minimized by good coaching. It doesn't seem that Kidd does much to minimize our weaknesses and instead, he actually magnifies them. That's bad coaching.

Well I don’t disagree with your larger points, I do think you are underrating how flawed this roster is. Our bench has to be bottom 3-5 in the league. And is there a worse center rotation in the league? I can’t think of one. We have a serious lack of 3pt shooters and no back-up wings.

I just dont think its accurate to describe our flaws as typical or average for “most teams except GSW”. I think things are much worse than that.


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I agree that our bench is pretty much atrocious but I think you might be underrating the starting lineup. How many teams in the league have a Giannis? 4, maybe 5? And then add secondary players like Middleton and Bledsoe who, on paper, are good fits with Giannis. It's up to the coach to maximize that group's strengths, which I don't think Kidd is doing. Also with our awful bench, how does it take 40 games to get Sterling Brown some meaningful minutes, when it's immediately clear that he is a better basketball than DeAndre Liggins. Even Sean Kilpatrick and Rashad Vaughn, who should have roles on the bench, are getting frozen out most games.

[thomchatt3rton]

I’m not trying to absolve the coaching staff. Theyre culpable. I am more interested in refining or finetuning the arguments/discourse here on the board.

If I understand correctly and your argument is that is not all Kidd's fault, why not fire Kidd? If we have a mediocre roster and a mediocre coach let's start with the easy part and replace the mediocre coach. You cannot replace an entire roster instantly. Let's start by putting in place a good coach, who will also help us evaluate better our roster.

If we fired Kidd tonight, I wouldn't lose any sleep (as long as Giannis is OK with it). I'm just not as sure as everyone else is that huge improvements would naturally and automatically follow. And I don't think it's impossible that were would possibly be some downside to that too that we're not seeing now. That's all.

I know I'm in the firekidd thread, but I think the discourse here is too much focused on getting rid of kidd as the sole cure-all- it's reaching fetish levels. I think some of the under-represented viewpoints- like Sid's idea of taking a longer view- are worth injecting into the conversation more- not to refute the #firekidd POV, but to adjust it's position slightly back to a more sane space.

[sidney lanier]

This young/developing team excuse is complete BS.

Don't conflate those two things (young and developing). See a lot of playoff experience in the Bucks locker room?

Of the 14 players with 100+ minutes this year, 10 have played legit rotation minutes in the playoffs at some point in their career.

This team isn't that young, and there are plenty of guys with experience and the ability to win now.

Not winning playoff experience. Is that where you are with this team -- win now? We'll have to agree to disagree on that point. 2017-18 is a developmental year in my view, not a year in which we can contend for the title.

[DingleJerry]

I'd advise anyone to watch the Pistons and Hornets right now and just focus on the motion and movement in their offenses and compare it to ours, that's a problem with Kidd and it hasn't changed in years. Both of these teams have drastically less talent than MKE, yet one is above them in the standings. But it's not really about w/l results here, the main point is just how drastically poor our half court offense is compared to the rest of the league.

[trwi7]

I've yet to see a good argument or proof that a young team has to go through growing pains before they can win in the playoffs in any sport. If you're good enough, you can win.

The Thunder made it to the Finals in 2012 by beating the defending champions in the 1st round, the Lakers who were back to back champions 2 and 3 years prior to that and the Spurs who won 5 and 7 years prior to the Thunder's appearance. That's about as big of a "playoff experience" gauntlet as you're going to run into and the Thunder beat all 3 teams with their top 4 in minutes going to two 22 year olds and two 23 year olds.

The Royals had no playoff experience when they steamrolled through the AL playoffs in 2015.

The Packers have been the youngest or near the youngest team in the league for how many years? Won the Super Bowl with little to no playoff experience.

[yannisk]

I’m not trying to absolve the coaching staff. Theyre culpable. I am more interested in refining or finetuning the arguments/discourse here on the board.

If I understand correctly and your argument is that is not all Kidd's fault, why not fire Kidd? If we have a mediocre roster and a mediocre coach let's start with the easy part and replace the mediocre coach. You cannot replace an entire roster instantly. Let's start by putting in place a good coach, who will also help us evaluate better our roster.

If we fired Kidd tonight, I wouldn't lose any sleep (as long as Giannis is OK with it). I'm just not as sure as everyone else is that huge improvements would naturally and automatically follow. And I don't think it's impossible that were would possibly be some downside to that too that we're not seeing now. That's all.

I know I'm in the firekidd thread, but I think the discourse here is too much focused on getting rid of kidd as the sole cure-all- it's reaching fetish levels. I think some of the under-represented viewpoints- like Sid's idea of taking a longer view- are worth injecting into the conversation more- not to refute the #firekidd POV, but to adjust it's position slightly back to a more sane space.

It is his 4th year, and there is no improvement. Always around 50% with one of the worst defenses in the league (Kidd himself was aiming for top 5). How long is the longer view?

To be fair, judging by the GM saga I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with a worse coach than Kidd

[Prez]

Don't conflate those two things (young and developing). See a lot of playoff experience in the Bucks locker room?

Of the 14 players with 100+ minutes this year, 10 have played legit rotation minutes in the playoffs at some point in their career.

This team isn't that young, and there are plenty of guys with experience and the ability to win now.

Not winning playoff experience. Is that where you are with this team -- win now? We'll have to agree to disagree on that point. 2017-18 is a developmental year in my view, not a year in which we can contend for the title.

Literally no one is saying we should be contending for a title. The issue is that this team has a negative point differential, the differential of a 37 win team and ranked 21st in the league. The 24th ranked defense. 20th in SRS. We're down to the 8th seed, and by the numbers we're likely fortunate to even be that high. You'll continue to ignore the numbers and criticize others for a lack of objectivity, though.

Again - of this team's top 8 players, 6 are 25+ or older firmly in their primes as players, and that's not even including the team's superstar player. This team is NOT that young, and there are plenty of players who have been to the playoffs and have the ability to compete now. This team should not be as thoroughly mediocre as they are.

[bigkurty]

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[StickeeFingaz]

Sid, you argue that Kidd knows the weaknesses of the team, one of which is having slow feet, yet you believe that a trapping/scrambling defense hides this weakness? It's the complete opposite. One would think that the best strategy for a team with slow feet is to play a more conservative defense aimed at keeping everything in front of the defenders, not consistently trapping above the 3 point line.

[sidney lanier]

I've yet to see a good argument or proof that a young team has to go through growing pains before they can win in the playoffs in any sport. If you're good enough, you can win.

The Thunder made it to the Finals in 2012 by beating the defending champions in the 1st round, the Lakers who were back to back champions 2 and 3 years prior to that and the Spurs who won 5 and 7 years prior to the Thunder's appearance. That's about as big of a "playoff experience" gauntlet as you're going to run into and the Thunder beat all 3 teams with their top 4 in minutes going to two 22 year olds and two 23 year olds.

The Royals had no playoff experience when they steamrolled through the AL playoffs in 2015.

The Packers have been the youngest or near the youngest team in the league for how many years? Won the Super Bowl with little to no playoff experience.

Citing the exceptions proves the rule IMO.

[bucksfansince88]

What’s the long view for a coach that’s proven to be mediocre for 4 seasons now? How long must we wait while taking this long view? The long view with Hammond was 9 years of mediocrity chasing the 6-8 seed

[sidney lanier]

Sid, you argue that Kidd knows the weaknesses of the team, one of which is having slow feet, yet you believe that a trapping/scrambling defense hides this weakness? It's the complete opposite. One would think that the best strategy for a team with slow feet is to play a more conservative defense aimed at keeping everything in front of the defenders, not consistently trapping above the 3 point line.

There's something in what you say, but what would be the downside? A conservative, almost zone-y defense would not create the fast break opportunities that a high-risk, high-cost approach does. Besides, we don't have the rebounding that would make a conservative approach effective.