Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4

[bwgood77]

In 1987-88 Suns traded Larry Nance to Cleveland for Kevin Johnson, Ty Corbin and Mark West. Kevin Johnson scored 7.3 ppg on 20 mpg in his half year in Cleveland. Johnson was stuck behind veteran guard Mark Price who played nearly 33 mpg.

The following 1988-89 season as a Sun KJ scored 20 ppg and averaged 12 assists per game. KJ went on to play 12 seasons with the Suns, including their finals appearance where they lost to some guy named Michael Jordan in 6 games. He was drafted with the 7th pick in the draft, and was a 3 time All Star.

It shows that you don't have to tank to find All Star talent. Somewhere in the NBA is a future star PG sitting behind a veteran and not getting minutes. Many are looking at 26 year old Shabazz Napier being stuck behind Damian Lillard.

Not sure if Napier is the future at PG for the Suns, but as the Kevin Johnson trade shows it is very possible to trade for talent and turn the team around.

KJ was a budding star though, and had just come out as the 7th pick (as you mentioned) in a draft. What KJ did in his second through fourth years (averaging over 20/10 shooting over 50%) is unprecedented to do that early in the career and hasn't been done since and would be crazy for anyone to do now.

The only guy I think that might have a chance of replicating KJ's #s in years 2-4 are Trae Young. And of course the 3 ball wasn't prevalent so the shooting numbers wouldn't be the same.

Napier was a low first rounder only drafted because he had that crazy tourney run (and possibly because LeBron tweeted he liked him). I'm not saying he won't turn into a solid NBA player but I don't know that this is a good comparison.

And the KJ trade was somewhat of a tank type trade, as we traded our star, Larry Nance, for a package and young player and were kind of rebuilding on the fly. He just became good instantly and we signed Chambers in the off season and had a magical season the next year.

[darealjuice]

But Jackson was our star in the making last draft. And Bender the one before that. Every season we're calling for a top pick so that we can land one these potential "stars" but who really knows when it comes to the draft. Are we gonna tank next season again when one of these guys don't pan out? Are we gonna tank every season until we finally hit gold? I'm not calling you out because I would like a top pick as well, but this approach might be getting out of hand.

You were expecting that star in the making to be done half way through his rookie season? That's revisionist history anyways, both Bender and Chriss have been called high risk projects since day 1, and it was well known that Jackson wasn't as developed on offense as the other guys at the top.

The point when you stop losing/tanking is, in my opinion, when the players you draft start looking like they can win games and you can start turning draft capital into the missing pieces of a good team. I'd assume that point will be when we have a legitimate option at starting point guard that isn't Ulis, we have a legitimate starting center, and we aren't wondering which one of Bender and Chriss is going to show up and contribute before each game. My personal hope is starts to happen next year with another year of growth for Booker, a solid offseason for Jackson, a full year under a real coach for Chriss and Bender, and adding someone like Young/Doncic/Ayton/Bagley/Bamba/Porter to to fill one of the holes in this team. It would be really nice if we started to see this at the end of the year so we can spend some draft capital towards building a team that can win some games next year, but I won't hold my breath.

[lilfishi22]

I don't see Napier as a potential diamond in the rough at all. Napier is playing great and he's better than the PG's we currently have on the roster but I really don't think he's waiting for a chance to explode. The tourney run mentioned by bw was a reason he was drafted in the 1st rather than 2nd round but another huge reason is Lebron's influence. If Lebron didn't say anything, he could've easily dropped into the mid 2nd round.

[Hesh]

But Jackson was our star in the making last draft. And Bender the one before that. Every season we're calling for a top pick so that we can land one these potential "stars" but who really knows when it comes to the draft. Are we gonna tank next season again when one of these guys don't pan out? Are we gonna tank every season until we finally hit gold? I'm not calling you out because I would like a top pick as well, but this approach might be getting out of hand.

You were expecting that star in the making to be done half way through his rookie season? That's revisionist history anyways, both Bender and Chriss have been called high risk projects since day 1, and it was well known that Jackson wasn't as developed on offense as the other guys at the top.

The point when you stop losing/tanking is, in my opinion, when the players you draft start looking like they can win games and you can start turning draft capital into the missing pieces of a good team. I'd assume that point will be when we have a legitimate option at starting point guard that isn't Ulis, we have a legitimate starting center, and we aren't wondering which one of Bender and Chriss is going to show up and contribute before each game. My personal hope is starts to happen next year with another year of growth for Booker, a solid offseason for Jackson, a full year under a real coach for Chriss and Bender, and adding someone like Young/Doncic/Ayton/Bagley/Bamba/Porter to to fill one of the holes in this team. It would be really nice if we started to see this at the end of the year so we can spend some draft capital towards building a team that can win some games next year, but I won't hold my breath.

Nah, I never said they were done. I'm very optimistic with our prospects, especially JJ. The poster I was quoting alluded to the thought that 1 or 2 of them would be role players and that we need to draft these potential "stars" in the next draft. I was merely pointing out the irony of writing these guys off when they were the potential stars we tanked for the last go round and if it turns out that he is correct in saying they're only role players, then who's to say this upcoming draft is a sure thing.

I'm all for developing our players, creating structure and a culture and I wouldn't sacrifice these just to blatantly tank for a top pick. This is the other problem I have with tanking. I'd love to get one of these guys in the top 5 but at what expense? I agree with your evaluation, although I'm still on the fence with promoting Triano.

[darealjuice]

Nah, I never said they were done. I'm very optimistic with our prospects, especially JJ. The poster I was quoting alluded to the thought that 1 or 2 of them would be role players and that we need to draft these potential "stars" in the next draft. I was merely pointing out the irony of writing these guys off when they were the potential stars we tanked for the last go round and if it turns out that he is correct in saying they're only role players, then who's to say this upcoming draft is a sure thing.

I'm all for developing our players, creating structure and a culture and I wouldn't sacrifice these just to blatantly tank for a top pick. This is the other problem I have with tanking. I'd love to get one of these guys in the top 5 but at what expense? I agree with your evaluation, although I'm still on the fence with promoting Triano.

That's definitely a good point, I guess I haven't paid too much attention towards how people here feel about our prospects vs. their opinion on the draft. I had thought that your post regarding our players was what you actually felt lol. As far as tanking goes, honestly I don't think we have anything more we can do to blatantly tank short of benching Booker and Warren, which seems pointless since they're some of the people we need developing.

[Hesh]

Nah, I never said they were done. I'm very optimistic with our prospects, especially JJ. The poster I was quoting alluded to the thought that 1 or 2 of them would be role players and that we need to draft these potential "stars" in the next draft. I was merely pointing out the irony of writing these guys off when they were the potential stars we tanked for the last go round and if it turns out that he is correct in saying they're only role players, then who's to say this upcoming draft is a sure thing.

I'm all for developing our players, creating structure and a culture and I wouldn't sacrifice these just to blatantly tank for a top pick. This is the other problem I have with tanking. I'd love to get one of these guys in the top 5 but at what expense? I agree with your evaluation, although I'm still on the fence with promoting Triano.

That's definitely a good point, I guess I haven't paid too much attention towards how people here feel about our prospects vs. their opinion on the draft. I had thought that your post regarding our players was what you actually felt lol. As far as tanking goes, honestly I don't think we have anything more we can do to blatantly tank short of benching Booker and Warren, which seems pointless since they're some of the people we need developing.

Imagine if this experiment in making Booker a facilitator is a smokescreen for the tanking process by leading him to believe they're advancing him to the next level lol. Because his scoring ability is what keeps us in games and lately he doesn't even look to score. Even when we desperately need buckets and he catches the ball in a position where he usually/easily capitalizes, instead he's surveying the court for an open teammate and passes up the opportunity. I enjoy watching him being the primary ball handler but he needs to find that balance between facilitator and scorer.

[bwgood77]

Nah, I never said they were done. I'm very optimistic with our prospects, especially JJ. The poster I was quoting alluded to the thought that 1 or 2 of them would be role players and that we need to draft these potential "stars" in the next draft. I was merely pointing out the irony of writing these guys off when they were the potential stars we tanked for the last go round and if it turns out that he is correct in saying they're only role players, then who's to say this upcoming draft is a sure thing.

I'm all for developing our players, creating structure and a culture and I wouldn't sacrifice these just to blatantly tank for a top pick. This is the other problem I have with tanking. I'd love to get one of these guys in the top 5 but at what expense? I agree with your evaluation, although I'm still on the fence with promoting Triano.

That's definitely a good point, I guess I haven't paid too much attention towards how people here feel about our prospects vs. their opinion on the draft. I had thought that your post regarding our players was what you actually felt lol. As far as tanking goes, honestly I don't think we have anything more we can do to blatantly tank short of benching Booker and Warren, which seems pointless since they're some of the people we need developing.

Imagine if this experiment in making Booker a facilitator is a smokescreen for the tanking process by leading him to believe they're advancing him to the next level lol. Because his scoring ability is what keeps us in games and lately he doesn't even look to score. Even when we desperately need buckets and he catches the ball in a position where he usually/easily capitalizes, instead he's surveying the court for an open teammate and passes up the opportunity. I enjoy watching him being the primary ball handler but he needs to find that balance between facilitator and scorer.

I almost responded the first time you said it but now seeing you say it again, I have to respond. What do you mean Booker isn't looking to score anymore? Just because he also passes? Surely not because he missed a lot of shots the last game..

I mean he's averaged 17 shots per game each of the last 4 (17, 17, 18, 16) and is averaging 18.7 shots per game for the year which is more than last year. I like when he looks to pass more because I think that needs to happen for the other players to stay vested, attentive, develop and gain confidence.

In the end, this helps him as well because if those other players develop and become offensive threats then Booker likely attracts less attention and double teams and can improve on efficiency, and if he does get double teamed he can make the teams pay with the pass.

[Hesh]

That's definitely a good point, I guess I haven't paid too much attention towards how people here feel about our prospects vs. their opinion on the draft. I had thought that your post regarding our players was what you actually felt lol. As far as tanking goes, honestly I don't think we have anything more we can do to blatantly tank short of benching Booker and Warren, which seems pointless since they're some of the people we need developing.

Imagine if this experiment in making Booker a facilitator is a smokescreen for the tanking process by leading him to believe they're advancing him to the next level lol. Because his scoring ability is what keeps us in games and lately he doesn't even look to score. Even when we desperately need buckets and he catches the ball in a position where he usually/easily capitalizes, instead he's surveying the court for an open teammate and passes up the opportunity. I enjoy watching him being the primary ball handler but he needs to find that balance between facilitator and scorer.

I almost responded the first time you said it but now seeing you say it again, I have to respond. What do you mean Booker isn't looking to score anymore? Just because he also passes? Surely not because he missed a lot of shots the last game..

I mean he's averaged 17 shots per game each of the last 4 (17, 17, 18, 16) and is averaging 18.7 shots per game for the year which is more than last year. I like when he looks to pass more because I think that needs to happen for the other players to stay vested, attentive, develop and gain confidence.

In the end, this helps him as well because if those other players develop and become offensive threats then Booker likely attracts less attention and double teams and can improve on efficiency, and if he does get double teamed he can make the teams pay with the pass.

lol everything you say is true and nah it's not just the last game. When watching the game's you can actually see him pass up the opportunities that he would usually take. It's cool to see what he's doing but sometimes its frustrating when you just need buckets. In saying that, I'm not suggesting that he should stop what he's doing and start shooting more. That's not the case.

[bwgood77]

Imagine if this experiment in making Booker a facilitator is a smokescreen for the tanking process by leading him to believe they're advancing him to the next level lol. Because his scoring ability is what keeps us in games and lately he doesn't even look to score. Even when we desperately need buckets and he catches the ball in a position where he usually/easily capitalizes, instead he's surveying the court for an open teammate and passes up the opportunity. I enjoy watching him being the primary ball handler but he needs to find that balance between facilitator and scorer.

I almost responded the first time you said it but now seeing you say it again, I have to respond. What do you mean Booker isn't looking to score anymore? Just because he also passes? Surely not because he missed a lot of shots the last game..

I mean he's averaged 17 shots per game each of the last 4 (17, 17, 18, 16) and is averaging 18.7 shots per game for the year which is more than last year. I like when he looks to pass more because I think that needs to happen for the other players to stay vested, attentive, develop and gain confidence.

In the end, this helps him as well because if those other players develop and become offensive threats then Booker likely attracts less attention and double teams and can improve on efficiency, and if he does get double teamed he can make the teams pay with the pass.

lol everything you say is true and nah it's not just the last game. When watching the game's you can actually see him pass up the opportunities that he would usually take. It's cool to see what he's doing but sometimes its frustrating when you just need buckets. In saying that, I'm not suggesting that he should stop what he's doing and start shooting more. That's not the case.

OK, because there was a game about 10 games ago where he was shooting poorly but he just kept shooting and wasn't looking to pass and everyone else was checking out. I hated it....the funny thing is he finally came around and got hot at the end and we pulled out the win, I think against a bad team, but it just felt like all the things I hated about the way Kobe played...just taking shots, teammates watching, hero ball, and you live or die with whether or not the shots go in....just not fun to watch.

People talk Kobe and sometimes Harden. I much prefer the latter but honestly, I'd love him to play just like Curry. Unselfish but fearless. I think those are traits Booker has and I think Curry is a much more likeable teammate than Kobe or Harden are.

Another thing...you see Curry cheering big time when Klay has a big game....Booker seems to do the same when other guys step up big. I don't see Kobe and Harden doing that as much.

[Hesh]

I almost responded the first time you said it but now seeing you say it again, I have to respond. What do you mean Booker isn't looking to score anymore? Just because he also passes? Surely not because he missed a lot of shots the last game..

I mean he's averaged 17 shots per game each of the last 4 (17, 17, 18, 16) and is averaging 18.7 shots per game for the year which is more than last year. I like when he looks to pass more because I think that needs to happen for the other players to stay vested, attentive, develop and gain confidence.

In the end, this helps him as well because if those other players develop and become offensive threats then Booker likely attracts less attention and double teams and can improve on efficiency, and if he does get double teamed he can make the teams pay with the pass.

lol everything you say is true and nah it's not just the last game. When watching the game's you can actually see him pass up the opportunities that he would usually take. It's cool to see what he's doing but sometimes its frustrating when you just need buckets. In saying that, I'm not suggesting that he should stop what he's doing and start shooting more. That's not the case.

OK, because there was a game about 10 games ago where he was shooting poorly but he just kept shooting and wasn't looking to pass and everyone else was checking out. I hated it....the funny thing is he finally came around and got hot at the end and we pulled out the win, I think against a bad team, but it just felt like all the things I hated about the way Kobe played...just taking shots, teammates watching, hero ball, and you live or die with whether or not the shots go in....just not fun to watch.

People talk Kobe and sometimes Harden. I much prefer the latter but honestly, I'd love him to play just like Curry. Unselfish but fearless. I think those are traits Booker has and I think Curry is a much more likeable teammate than Kobe or Harden are.

Another thing...you see Curry cheering big time when Klay has a big game....Booker seems to do the same when other guys step up big. I don't see Kobe and Harden doing that as much.

He needs that balance though, between scoring and facilitating. I like the way he's playing now compared to chucking when he's cold. But when we need a bucket, after he's turned it over on so many possessions and the rest of the team are cold, he should take the opportunity when it presents itself. It just seems he's too focused on assisting a teammate on a shot. I'll put it down to overzealous when starting a new job and he should find that balance eventually.

Curry and Book are probably just good guys. I've seen harden celebrate quite a bit but not as much. Kobe's just not a people person

[lilfishi22]

I see Booker as way more Kobe than Harden when it comes to natural playmaking vs scoring. Booker is expanding his play making abilities but he's still looking to score and perhaps because of the way the roster is made up, he HAS to score but I always felt that was more natural to him than being a passing 2 guard like Harden.

Right now Booker's AST% is right in line with Kobe's career AST% (23.5 vs 24.2) and Kobe's career high of 29.9 seems about right for Booker.

[bwgood77]

I see Booker as way more Kobe than Harden when it comes to natural playmaking vs scoring. Booker is expanding his play making abilities but he's still looking to score and perhaps because of the way the roster is made up, he HAS to score but I always felt that was more natural to him than being a passing 2 guard like Harden.

Right now Booker's AST% is right in line with Kobe's career AST% (23.5 vs 24.2) and Kobe's career high of 29.9 seems about right for Booker.

He's obviously much more of a natural scorer than playmaker. I mean even though his assists continue to go up, the turnovers are never far behind...he can't even hit an ast/to ratio on the level of Brandon Knight yet.

So I don't know that we want him trying to do too much in that regard either. I just think it's a good skill to try and develop in this point of his career and for our team right now, we just need ball movement. We need a much more natural passer to run things who won't cough it up as much. Trae Young actually coughs it up a lot as well, but more like in a Harden way...he may average 4-5 turnovers a game, but it's on more like 10 apg.

[King4Day]

Come trade deadline, I don't think we'll make significant moves (maybe move Daniels for a 2nd?). The most I see is us doing is cutting Monroe afterwards. After that, what do you think we can expect? Will we just give Len endless minutes to make a final decision on what we want to do with him in the summer?

[lilfishi22]

I see Booker as way more Kobe than Harden when it comes to natural playmaking vs scoring. Booker is expanding his play making abilities but he's still looking to score and perhaps because of the way the roster is made up, he HAS to score but I always felt that was more natural to him than being a passing 2 guard like Harden.

Right now Booker's AST% is right in line with Kobe's career AST% (23.5 vs 24.2) and Kobe's career high of 29.9 seems about right for Booker.

He's obviously much more of a natural scorer than playmaker. I mean even though his assists continue to go up, the turnovers are never far behind...he can't even hit an ast/to ratio on the level of Brandon Knight yet.

So I don't know that we want him trying to do too much in that regard either. I just think it's a good skill to try and develop in this point of his career and for our team right now, we just need ball movement. We need a much more natural passer to run things who won't cough it up as much. Trae Young actually coughs it up a lot as well, but more like in a Harden way...he may average 4-5 turnovers a game, but it's on more like 10 apg.

Yeah Booker won't be that Harden type player who's the team's primary scorer and primary playmaker. To be fair though, very few people can be that type of player. We're talking MVP level players like Lebron, Steph, Harden, Westbrook and Rose.

[lilfishi22]

Come trade deadline, I don't think we'll make significant moves (maybe move Daniels for a 2nd?). The most I see is us doing is cutting Monroe afterwards. After that, what do you think we can expect? Will we just give Len endless minutes to make a final decision on what we want to do with him in the summer?

Why move our only 3PT shooter who averages better than .400 from beyond the arc for a 2nd? We only have 3 players to shoot over.38% from range. He's on a super cheap contract and does what asked of him. I really hope we find a suitor for Monroe. I would be disappointed if we just cut him because that means we traded Bledsoe for...the Bucks pick with the unique protection.

[King4Day]

Come trade deadline, I don't think we'll make significant moves (maybe move Daniels for a 2nd?). The most I see is us doing is cutting Monroe afterwards. After that, what do you think we can expect? Will we just give Len endless minutes to make a final decision on what we want to do with him in the summer?

Why move our only 3PT shooter who averages better than .400 from beyond the arc for a 2nd? We only have 3 players to shoot over.38% from range. He's on a super cheap contract and does what asked of him. I really hope we find a suitor for Monroe. I would be disappointed if we just cut him because that means we traded Bledsoe for...the Bucks pick with the unique protection.

If we're trying to cut salary and give Reed more time. That's the only reason I could see us consider it.

[lilfishi22]

Come trade deadline, I don't think we'll make significant moves (maybe move Daniels for a 2nd?). The most I see is us doing is cutting Monroe afterwards. After that, what do you think we can expect? Will we just give Len endless minutes to make a final decision on what we want to do with him in the summer?

Why move our only 3PT shooter who averages better than .400 from beyond the arc for a 2nd? We only have 3 players to shoot over.38% from range. He's on a super cheap contract and does what asked of him. I really hope we find a suitor for Monroe. I would be disappointed if we just cut him because that means we traded Bledsoe for...the Bucks pick with the unique protection.

If we're trying to cut salary and give Reed more time. That's the only reason I could see us consider it.

Not talking about you specifically but I think Reed is the most overrated player on the Suns team by fans here. He's intriguing in what he brings but for a guy who's drafted in the second round, I can't believe some fans already think he's a rotation player.

[bwgood77]

Why move our only 3PT shooter who averages better than .400 from beyond the arc for a 2nd? We only have 3 players to shoot over.38% from range. He's on a super cheap contract and does what asked of him. I really hope we find a suitor for Monroe. I would be disappointed if we just cut him because that means we traded Bledsoe for...the Bucks pick with the unique protection.

If we're trying to cut salary and give Reed more time. That's the only reason I could see us consider it.

Not talking about you specifically but I think Reed is the most overrated player on the Suns team by fans here. He's intriguing in what he brings but for a guy who's drafted in the second round, I can't believe some fans already think he's a rotation player.

The theory is that McD gets better players when he has worst draft picks. So the hype on Reed is VERY high. Jokes aside, I like what Reed can theoretically provide. They had to like him a lot to pass on guys like Jordan Bell, Ojeleye, etc.

[Hesh]

Why move our only 3PT shooter who averages better than .400 from beyond the arc for a 2nd? We only have 3 players to shoot over.38% from range. He's on a super cheap contract and does what asked of him. I really hope we find a suitor for Monroe. I would be disappointed if we just cut him because that means we traded Bledsoe for...the Bucks pick with the unique protection.

If we're trying to cut salary and give Reed more time. That's the only reason I could see us consider it.

Not talking about you specifically but I think Reed is the most overrated player on the Suns team by fans here. He's intriguing in what he brings but for a guy who's drafted in the second round, I can't believe some fans already think he's a rotation player.

It was that first summer league game and the fact that we're in dire need of 3 pt shooter's. I was excited to see him play before the season started. But since we now Troy Daniels and I doubt a rookie can come in and shoot 40% from 3 but he might have more to his game than just a 3pt shot.

[lilfishi22]

If we're trying to cut salary and give Reed more time. That's the only reason I could see us consider it.

Not talking about you specifically but I think Reed is the most overrated player on the Suns team by fans here. He's intriguing in what he brings but for a guy who's drafted in the second round, I can't believe some fans already think he's a rotation player.

The theory is that McD gets better players when he has worst draft picks. So the hype on Reed is VERY high. Jokes aside, I like what Reed can theoretically provide. They had to like him a lot to pass on guys like Jordan Bell, Ojeleye, etc.

I think he's intriguing, physically and from a 3&D potential standpoint but the guy's a 2nd round pick having just played 1 game. Not going to proclaim him an NBA player yet and certainly not an NBA rotation player.