'17-'18 POY discussion

[ardee]

All this Butler love has been unexpected to say the least. The guy is being outperformed statistically by his own teammate.

[bondom34]

Not at all.

[eminence]

All this Butler love has been unexpected to say the least. The guy is being outperformed statistically by his own teammate.

Ehh, I think you could say Towns has performed evenly with him box-score statistically, with Butler ahead in the +/- family and also the clear team leader.

Adds up to a clear edge to Butler for me.

[trex_8063]

Do you realize that Towns, while playing in more games and only slightly less points/game, is outshooting Butler from both two point range AND THREE (ON GREATER 3 POINT VOLUME)? Also of course 12 rebounds to 5 though Butler does draw more fouls and play stronger defense. Just curious since Butler is getting a lot of love (including one 1st place) while KAT has not been mentioned except once as an afterthought top 10 mention.

Aren't you the one always admonishing bigs who don't play defense (Issel, Johnston, Bellamy), while lauding those that do (like Mel Daniels, who you've been championing forever in the top 100 profect)?

KAT is poor on that end; I suspect that's the gist of this trend.

[Clyde Frazier]

I think he gets the most out of them on D. Offensively Pop hasn't looked too sharp the last two years. Way more leaning on Kawhi/Lamarcus than the system.

There's also the ability to adapt your style of play to the roster you're given. Spurs went from the d'antoni style fast paced / 3PT heavy offense pre-LMA to bottom of the league in pace and 3PT rate over the last 3 seasons. I think that separates the good coaches from the great ones -- riley would be another example.

Always better to be in these places with great players, which both men have had. Throw in Pop now have player coaches all over the place. Who gets the luxury of a Manu and Parker on the bench?

Well, my point is more about a sustained level of excellence with one franchise that's basically unparalleled in the modern era. The fact that ginobili and parker are still there is more a testament to him i'd say than the other way around. In other words, if he had retired when duncan did, they likely would've followed suit or in parker's case maybe changed teams.

[ardee]

I haven't watched much 'Sota, is Butler basically doing what Kawhi does?

[bondom34]

With better playmaking, little less scoring, and being basically one of 2 capable defenders on the roster.

Jimmy/KAT: 118.7 OR/107.0 DR
KAT/No Jimmy: 111.2 OR/122.6 DR
Jimmy/No KAT: 112.0 OR/112.0 DR

Haven't checked with Wiggins, and looking at it that actually makes me maybe drop him a spot or 2, but he's well ahead of KAT. He's not carrying as much as some other guys given the 0 net without KAT but still impressive.

[therealbig3]

Not sure LeBron actually deserves to be top 5 considering how disappointing he's been, but it's hard to keep him out, because he's freaking LeBron James and he'll prove why he's still probably the best in the game in the playoffs again...but based on this RS so far, and if we discount injuries for a moment, I would say Curry, Harden, and Butler at minimum have been better, and it's not even close.

[dhsilv2]

There's also the ability to adapt your style of play to the roster you're given. Spurs went from the d'antoni style fast paced / 3PT heavy offense pre-LMA to bottom of the league in pace and 3PT rate over the last 3 seasons. I think that separates the good coaches from the great ones -- riley would be another example.

Always better to be in these places with great players, which both men have had. Throw in Pop now have player coaches all over the place. Who gets the luxury of a Manu and Parker on the bench?

Well, my point is more about a sustained level of excellence with one franchise that's basically unparalleled in the modern era. The fact that ginobili and parker are still there is more a testament to him i'd say than the other way around. In other words, if he had retired when duncan did, they likely would've followed suit or in parker's case maybe changed teams.

The spurs organization is more than Pop. RC Buford for example has been with the team for every title with pop and has been one of the best executives in the league over that time. Holt the owner started around 94 which is about when Pop first joined the organization. Chip Engelland joined in the 06 season and has been a key part of their player development.

Don't get me wrong Pop deserves a lot of credit for building the culture they have, but he has had tremendous luck along to way.

[oldschooled]

ATM Lebron is not actually in my top 5. Pretty sure he'll get there by PS time though. Lebron's impact stats would suggest he's not even a top 10 player right now tbh.

Curry/Harden

KD
Butler
Giannis

[dhsilv2]

I haven't watched much 'Sota, is Butler basically doing what Kawhi does?

He's really the same player he's been the last few years. Great defender capable scorer play maker. Leonard is a better scorer with less play making skill.

[dhsilv2]

ATM Lebron is not actually in my top 5. Pretty sure he'll get there by PS time though. Lebron's impact stats would suggest he's not even a top 10 player right now tbh.

Curry/Harden

KD
Butler
Giannis

Based on RPM and using the WINS function to address minutes.

Butler
Westbrook
Cousins
Lebron
Harden

I've not seen a prior informed RAPM set yet this year and I wouldn't trust vanilla RAPM much with most players around 45 games played, so RPM is about the best we got for an impact stat. It certainly indicates lebron is a top 10 guy.

[ardee]

I don't see a 27/8/9 guy on 65% TS being out of the top 10 no matter how bad his defense is. He's not worse than freaking Harden on that end for crying out loud.

I even think having him out of the top 5 is a joke and blaming his teammates' shortcomings on him.

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[dhsilv2]

I don't see a 27/8/9 guy on 65% TS being out of the top 10 no matter how bad his defense is. He's not worse than freaking Harden on that end for crying out loud.

I even think having him out of the top 5 is a joke and blaming his teammates' shortcomings on him.

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Agree with James in the top 5. But there are a lot of REALLY good players in the league right now.

If you had say Butler, Curry, Harden, Giannis, and well if Leonard was healthy him as your top 5. I could understand it. I haven't seen the case made but Oladipo has had a hell of a year so I could see someone pushing for him or even a Chris Paul. Both of those guys are ahead of James in RPM as is Cousins who i guess could have his own case.

And I didn't even mention AD or my guy i want to be my favorite player if he stays healthy Embiid.

[Dr Spaceman]

I haven't watched much 'Sota, is Butler basically doing what Kawhi does?

The way I see it, they play completely different games. Other than the most superficial level, they don’t really play similar.

Butler is far more of an initiator from the perimeter. He’s the lead ball handler and playmaker on his team, Kawhi is almost always played with Parker or Ginobili for that responsibility. Butler’s game is based off of his extremely rapid first step. He can blow past pretty much any defender in the league and be two steps ahead before they can even react. This makes a big difference. Kawhi likes to muscle his way to the paint slowly, which obviously puts less pressure on the 4 defenders who aren’t guarding him. Butler’s not the same shooter, but I’m comfortable saying he’s a better offensive player just due to the nature of his game being more explosive and more forceful.

People like to say Butler’s the same guy he was in Chicago, and while that’s true statistically, it’s not true in approach. He’s running a ton more pick and roll now and he’s better at it, he can flex his playmaking game far more without sharing the ball with Wade and Rondo, he doesn’t need the post up to get his own shot, he’s dribbling way more, but actually moving with more purpose and force.

And this isn’t even mentioning his leadership, which is the biggest NBA story IMO. He has completely revamped that team’s culture, and it was evident from day 1.

[penbeast0]

Do you realize that Towns, while playing in more games and only slightly less points/game, is outshooting Butler from both two point range AND THREE (ON GREATER 3 POINT VOLUME)? Also of course 12 rebounds to 5 though Butler does draw more fouls and play stronger defense. Just curious since Butler is getting a lot of love (including one 1st place) while KAT has not been mentioned except once as an afterthought top 10 mention.

Aren't you the one always admonishing bigs who don't play defense (Issel, Johnston, Bellamy), while lauding those that do (like Mel Daniels, who you've been championing forever in the top 100 profect)?

KAT is poor on that end; I suspect that's the gist of this trend.

Oh, I absolutely agree. I was more surprised at the numbers when I looked and have only seen Minnesota in spurts this year, haven't watched a full game by them yet (mainly watching Wizards and the occasional Heat game) so I don't know much about Towns's defense other than anecdotal.

[ZemGOAT]

1. James Harden

2. Lebron James


3. Stephen Curry
4. Giannis Antentokoumpo
5. Anthony Davis

This is my list as well.

I'd probably follow it up with some combination of Kyrie, Westbrook, Durant, Cousins, Butler and DeRozan.

One of these guys shouldn't be anywhere near this list.

You bolded the wrong guy fixed

[laika]

1. Curry- having a historically great season. Only reason he wouldn't be #1 is minutes.
2. Giannis- Bucks aren't very good but Giannis is turning into a monster.
3. Harden- His impact isn't this high, but I'll give a concession to box score stats.
4. Butler- One of the more underrated players in the league.
5. Davis- Pelicans are actually good when Davis plays. The problem is that their 4-10 players are horrible.

As for Lebron, his impact has fallen off a cliff. Impact wise Lebron is not in the top 10 and a vote for him at #1 is indefensible.

[dhsilv2]

This is my list as well.

I'd probably follow it up with some combination of Kyrie, Westbrook, Durant, Cousins, Butler and DeRozan.

One of these guys shouldn't be anywhere near this list.

You bolded the wrong guy fixed

Nah I got the guy who isn't a top 20 guy.

[bondom34]

This is my list as well.

I'd probably follow it up with some combination of Kyrie, Westbrook, Durant, Cousins, Butler and DeRozan.

One of these guys shouldn't be anywhere near this list.

You bolded the wrong guy fixed

See the issue here is you need to use facts to back up your opinion. Its not like some other forums that way. Some sort of statistical basis is generally required and not a hot take on a guy you've already shown you don't like.