The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III

[Duke4life831]

Ball's shooting is pretty much historically bad, but considering how he impacts the Lakers in a positive way (15-21 with him; 0-8 without) and that chart is pretty clear as well, shows how good he is in nearly every other aspect of the game. impressive.

He has definitely struggled shooting the ball but he has begun to improve a lot over the last couple months.

Ball's first 18 games:
9ppg on 30/23/46 shooting

Ball's last 18 games:
11ppg on 40/36/50 shooting

Now the 50% shooting from the line is still bad but the 40% from the floor isnt horrible for a rookie PG, guys like Wall and Westbrook shot 40% or below their rookie years, hell Kemba shot 36% his rookie year and in his 4th year he shot 38% from the floor. So again the FT% is definitely something he needs to focus on, but the 40/36 shooting numbers are pretty solid for a rookie PG. Especially considering scoring is never going to be a big part of his game.

[bgwc]

I assumed he would be a terrible defender based on what he did at UCLA, but the defensive metrics seem to show he's having a significant positive impact on that end when he's on the floor. I haven't had a chance to watch many of the games so wondering if he passes the eye test or if the stats are more of an aberration in this instance.

[NBAFan93]

He is actually a pretty good defender - there are a couple other rookies just as good of better, but he’s probably in the top 3-4 of rookies w/ defense. He gets a lot of steals and actually puts in effort.

Overall he’s not anywhere near the hype though - especially on the offensive end. His entire offensive game is extremely overrated.

[TheHartBreakKid]

Considering this is the GB, and this is a Laker topic, especially a Lonzo topic, and I have a Laker logo in my profile, I'm expecting some negative responses to this post, but here it goes.


OP, since you asked for the eye test, I'll focus on that, though I wish you posted his defensive stats, especially, the advanced stats, so people can see it. I'm definitely too lazy to do so.


Lonzo is absolutely an above average defender, and I'm very surprised about it as well. His insticts are Bball defensive IQ are elite, in my humble opinion. His effort is also fantastic, though definitely not perfect. I think he's lacking the physical attributes to become a truly All defensive candidate player, especially in point guard. His lateral quickness is mediocre at best, and atleast in this stage, so is his strength, EVEN for the point guard position, though that's not as much of a concern. In fact, I could say confidently that his help/team defense is elite in the point guard position. He does a great job reading plays, and he has the height and instincts to make impressive plays consistently. His man defense (due to his physical attributes), will keep him from reaching that elite level as a defender overall, but that's what I see personally, and last I checked the stats support this.


I wish this Lonzo is a poor defender narrative would simply end, as that's probably one of his most impressive attributes right now. I expected him to be a great playmaker, which he is. I expected him to be a very good rebounder, and he has exceeded expectations in that regard. I expected him to struggle scoring in the half court, which he has. I definitely didn't expect him to struggle this much shooting wise, and I also definitely didn't expect him to be this good of a defender.


Before the season, I always criticized the Jkidd comparisons, as I expected Lonzo to not be anywhere in his league as a defender (thought he would be worse obv) OR as a shooter (thought he would be better obv), but honestly, the comparisons are looking more and more accurate. Don't get me wrong, Kidd was a better defender, but I also think Lonzo is a better shooter....but the difference levels are definitely not as significant than I thought.

[Goudelock]

Considering this is the GB, and this is a Laker topic, especially a Lonzo topic, and I have a Laker logo in my profile, I'm expecting some negative responses to this post, but here it goes.


OP, since you asked for the eye test, I'll focus on that, though I wish you posted his defensive stats, especially, the advanced stats, so people can see it. I'm definitely too lazy to do so.


Lonzo is absolutely an above average defender, and I'm very surprised about it as well. His insticts are Bball defensive IQ are elite, in my humble opinion. His effort is also fantastic, though definitely not perfect. I think he's lacking the physical attributes to become a truly All defensive candidate player, especially in point guard. His lateral quickness is mediocre at best, and atleast in this stage, so is his strength, EVEN for the point guard position, though that's not as much of a concern. In fact, I could say confidently that his help/team defense is elite in the point guard position. He does a great job reading plays, and he has the height and instincts to make impressive plays consistently. His man defense (due to his physical attributes), will keep him from reaching that elite level as a defender overall, but that's what I see personally, and last I checked the stats support this.


I wish this Lonzo is a poor defender narrative would simply end, as that's probably one of his most impressive attributes right now. I expected him to be a great playmaker, which he is. I expected him to be a very good rebounder, and he has exceeded expectations in that regard. I expected him to struggle scoring in the half court, which he has. I definitely didn't expect him to struggle this much shooting wise, and I also definitely didn't expect him to be this good of a defender.


Before the season, I always criticized the Jkidd comparisons, as I expected Lonzo to not be anywhere in his league as a defender (thought he would be worse obv) OR as a shooter (thought he would be better obv), but honestly, the comparisons are looking more and more accurate. Don't get me wrong, Kidd was a better defender, but I also think Lonzo is a better shooter....but the difference levels are definitely not as significant than I thought.

This is a great description of his game. I would also like to point out one more underrated aspect of Lonzo's passing. He puts up assists at a high rate, but that's not the part of his facilitating skills that impresses me the most. His his pinpoint outlet/hit-ahead passes are absolutely critical to the Lakers' fastbreak attack and are probably the thing he does best.

I am going to move this to the Rookie of the Year thread, since this is just a general question about Ball.

[LakersSoul]

Ball's shooting is pretty much historically bad, but considering how he impacts the Lakers in a positive way (15-21 with him; 0-8 without) and that chart is pretty clear as well, shows how good he is in nearly every other aspect of the game. impressive.

He has definitely struggled shooting the ball but he has begun to improve a lot over the last couple months.

Ball's first 18 games:
9ppg on 30/23/46 shooting

Ball's last 18 games:
11ppg on 40/36/50 shooting

Now the 50% shooting from the line is still bad but the 40% from the floor isnt horrible for a rookie PG, guys like Wall and Westbrook shot 40% or below their rookie years, hell Kemba shot 36% his rookie year and in his 4th year he shot 38% from the floor. So again the FT% is definitely something he needs to focus on, but the 40/36 shooting numbers are pretty solid for a rookie PG. Especially considering scoring is never going to be a big part of his game.

I think the FT % is a bit deceptive. Lonzo really doesnt get many calls and he doesnt get to the line often, averaging 1.4 FT shots per game. He usually gets to the line between 0-3 times with 2 games when he got 7 attempts. In high school, he was a 80% shooter but regressed a bit at UCLA with 67.3%. When he gets more comfortable, I expect him to start hitting 70% range by end of the season and next season. That would be a good starting point for now.

[Nate505]

Read on Twitter

Those types of players can be found anywhere. Anywhere I tells you!!!

[GrandTheftRondo]

It’s absurd some of the hate Mitchell is getting from certain posters on here.

He’s been fantastic. If Simmons keeps up with these so so games like tonight, Mitchell is winning ROY.

[levon]

It’s absurd some of the hate Mitchell is getting from certain posters on here.

He’s been fantastic. If Simmons keeps up with these so so games like tonight, Mitchell is winning ROY.

I honestly think Mitchell will put up even bigger games after the ASB.

[Sactowndog]

There's no slowing down Donovan Mitchell. S.T.U.D

Mitchell is damn good but Bogdanovich isn’t bad either....

25 points on only 11 shots. 6 for 6 from 3.
6 boards and 2 assists. First team all rookie is going to be tough this year. Probably 5-7 guys are good enough to have been rookie of the year last year.

Yes Bogdanovich is definitely trending up. He's just not getting much exposure from the media because he hasn't exploded like Mitchell. Add in the fact that he's in Sactown and the talk of the team is Fox. Underrated.

And he never will either. Bogdan is more like Ball then Mitchell in that he will never take a shot if a teammate has a better one. He just sees the court so well and is unselfish to a fault. He needs to shot more for the Kings to improve but he’s not going to change fundamentally who he is.

[Sactowndog]

It’s absurd some of the hate Mitchell is getting from certain posters on here.

He’s been fantastic. If Simmons keeps up with these so so games like tonight, Mitchell is winning ROY.

I think hate is a strong word. This class just has an inordinate amount of high caliber rookies and people use different metrics to draw the line on top 5. If Mitchell’s efficiency gets better he will move up for me.

Part of the reason he scores so much is the volume of shots he takes. The other reason is he is damn good.

[tsmith]

Read on Twitter

Terrible stat and comparison, Jordan averaged 28 in his rookie year.

[Trippinskarlo]

Read on Twitter

Lol...I don't even want to go in on this.

[nurseryc]

Simmons is a lock for ROY. Other than scoring/shooting, he is killing Mitchell in every area. There is more to basketball than points per game.

[FinnTheHuman]

Collins has a 21 per and shoots 60% from the field. Why does he not get more minutes?

that's a very good question. my best guess is fouling (though I haven't looked at his foul numbers) and/or defense. though last night they had him defending Brow down the stretch of a tight game.

I think it's just about him sabotaging their tank + they gotta advertise vet bigs for trades by playing them minutes. He'll get 32+ minutes in his sophomore year.

[DASMACKDOWN]

I think everyone should just enjoy all the rookies and their accomplishments. Fans dont need to degrade someone else to praise their own. They all are good.

This year in comparison to last year in terms of rookies is night and day. I am honestly enjoying watching the whole crop of rookies. We may not see this many good ones again in years.

[GameBredAPBT]

Mitchell will inevitable garner hate because he was so off everyone's radar. See: Kawhi, Giannis, etc. These guys were expected to be serviceable NBA players at best, not top 10 players.

Fans get upset when guys that were hyped & drafted high don't pan out, and guys that went #10-20 wind up being far superior. "Why didn't we know about them pre-draft? How could they be this good!?! Cannot compute!!"

Reality is that Mitchell & Markkenen are likely the only two generational talents in this draft, and they went 7 & 13. Tatum could be but I'm still not sold on that yet. But Mitch & Markk have otherworldly, transcendent abilities. They were just poorly scouted. It happens & will continue to happen.

[stitches]

For the ones who think Mitchell doesn't playmake:

Read on Twitter

He's had some amazing passes this season that didn't even make it in this short demo.

Here's the insider article on Mitchell:

http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/22147044/does-donovan-mitchell-superstar-potential-utah-jazz-nba

[Kabookalu]

Mitchell will inevitable garner hate because he was so off everyone's radar. See: Kawhi, Giannis, etc. These guys were expected to be serviceable NBA players at best, not top 10 players.

I've never seen anyone hate those guys. They're pretty much the two most likable superstars we've had in a while.

[GameBredAPBT]

Mitchell will inevitable garner hate because he was so off everyone's radar. See: Kawhi, Giannis, etc. These guys were expected to be serviceable NBA players at best, not top 10 players.

I've never seen anyone hate those guys. They're pretty much the two most likable superstars we've had in a while.

"hate" as in the "hate" that Mitchell is receiving at the moment. People were skeptical about Leonard even after he won that FInals MVP because he wasn't a high lotto pick. People can't wrap their heads around why the best players might go below #10 or so. "Why weren't they picked higher then!?!!?" It's a simpleton mindset.