Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 5

[Waylay13]

Win now or Booker leaves?!? Serious? He just turned 21 not 29.......

Nobody is saying win-now means win tomorrow. It means Suns should always be looking to make aggressive move in trade and FA to improve the team around Booker.

Win now means no more BS like the #timeline. It means continually evaluating and making trades and signing FA's in order to improve the team. It takes years, assuming McD makes good FA signings and good trades, to build a winning team. If he doesn't sign players that fit on the first go-round, then you have to move them for yet different talent. It is a constant movement of players onto the team and off of the team over a long period of time all with the intent of building around your core players.

Looking at players like Kyrie Irving, Kemba Walker etc.. is exactly what McD should be doing. But to avoid this process (as many on this board advocate) because bringing in a veteran would "take away the development of our young players" is not smart basketball, and ensures a team will be bad for a long time. Suns have already been historically bad (for the Suns) for the last 5 years. It is easy for me to see them still being bad for the next 5 years if we follow the #timeline.

And make no mistake, if this franchise continues to flounder then Booker will request a trade a few years down the road.

Lets be clear here the Suns are moving forward with a plan to build a long term winning team and not some win now team. It has been publicly stated that the Suns are asking and getting Bookers feedback on team moves. So in 3 years of the rebuild we are seeing a team with some good solid developing pieces in Booker, Warren, Jackson, Chriss, and Bender. The problem with you win now people is that you want to count the whole time that the team hasnt made the playoffs as the offical rebuild time. The most important thing this team can do is build a team for the long term that doesnt try to shortcut the process that will bring on some salaries that would handcap the team things like a Kemba trade would be a massive mess in only a couple year that would hurt the team for years to come.

[BobbieL]

Win now or Booker leaves?!? Serious? He just turned 21 not 29.......

Nobody is saying win-now means win tomorrow. It means Suns should always be looking to make aggressive move in trade and FA to improve the team around Booker.

Win now means no more BS like the #timeline. It means continually evaluating and making trades and signing FA's in order to improve the team. It takes years, assuming McD makes good FA signings and good trades, to build a winning team. If he doesn't sign players that fit on the first go-round, then you have to move them for yet different talent. It is a constant movement of players onto the team and off of the team over a long period of time all with the intent of building around your core players.

Looking at players like Kyrie Irving, Kemba Walker etc.. is exactly what McD should be doing. But to avoid this process (as many on this board advocate) because bringing in a veteran would "take away the development of our young players" is not smart basketball, and ensures a team will be bad for a long time. Suns have already been historically bad (for the Suns) for the last 5 years. It is easy for me to see them still being bad for the next 5 years if we follow the #timeline.

And make no mistake, if this franchise continues to flounder then Booker will request a trade a few years down the road.

Lets be clear here the Suns are moving forward with a plan to build a long term winning team and not some win now team. It has been publicly stated that the Suns are asking and getting Bookers feedback on team moves. So in 3 years of the rebuild we are seeing a team with some good solid developing pieces in Booker, Warren, Jackson, Chriss, and Bender. The problem with you win now people is that you want to count the whole time that the team hasnt made the playoffs as the offical rebuild time. The most important thing this team can do is build a team for the long term that doesnt try to shortcut the process that will bring on some salaries that would handcap the team things like a Kemba trade would be a massive mess in only a couple year that would hurt the team for years to come.

I think you made an excellent point. This new rebuild happened after LMAldridge decided to take his talents to San Antonio so they caused the organization to re-examine itself.

The problem with the Kemba Walker deal - the more I think about it is this -
1) you have to take bad contracts when the Suns are VERY close to be in GREAT cap shape - and if some team gets a bee in their bonnet for Daniels and Chandler - it could improve even more. So, for Kemba the Suns are giving up assets and taking bad contracts. He is not that good to take a bad contract

2) the Suns are pretty damn close to a top 7 pick in a draft - he would give them artificial wins in my book

play through the season' and see what happens

[bwgood77]

Just because the Hornets want to get rid of some of their bad contracts doesn't mean they are going to, even if they do include Kemba. Did the Bulls get rid of Robin Lopez (a bad contract) when they traded Butler? How about the Knicks when they traded Melo, why didn't they include Joakim Noah? How about the Pacers with George, they could have traded Al Jefferson with him. How about us, why didn't we get rid of Dudley or Chandler along with Bledsoe? What about last year with Boogie, why didn't the Kings also get rid of Kostas Koufos?

This argument where some of you believe it would take taking on a contract such as Marvin Williams, MKG, Batum, or even Dwight just to get Kemba just isn't true.

Look at past deals as of late, it doesn't happen. Why? Because if a team is trying to blow it up, they don't need the immediate cap space anyway because free agents aren't going to go there. On the opposite side of things, the team receiving the star would water their team down, and wouldn't be able to afford to better their team via free agency or they would risk going into the luxury tax to sign their own players. It would be dead money for them.

It is true. They let it be known. It is completely irrelevant what other players got moved for. Those guys mostly got moved because they were not likely to re-sign.

The Hornets have been trying to trade those bad contracts to no avail, so now they are willing to listen to offers with Kemba involved if people are willing to take bad contracts. This has been reported.

Just because people want to pretend it's not true doesn't make it untrue.

No one is ignoring the fact that the Hornets have made Kemba available just to get rid of bad contracts. Please tell me what teams are going to take on a bad contract to get Kemba. Only one I can think of is the Jazz and I mentioned that before. I doubt anyone makes a deal unless it's for Kemba alone. The Hornets can ask all they want to trade those bad contracts, doesn't mean it will happen. I mentioned this, and mentioned if the Hornets want draft picks or young players then they would get more value out of Kemba alone. If they just want to get rid of additional salary then they won't be getting either of those and will only get salary relief. But then, what teams have $30mil in expiring contracts? If I were the Hornets GM, obviously I'd try and and trade my bad contracts to go along with Walker, but when it comes down to improving the team long term I'd prefer to hold my bad contracts and just let them expire later if it meant getting picks back.

If no teams are willing to trade Kemba then they obviously wouldn't have any incentive to trade him. He's a star who loves it there, the fans love him there and he wants to stay. They thought they'd dangle him to get rid of wrong contracts. I seriously doubt he just gets traded and they keep all the other vets with long term contracts but not Kemba. Would make zero sense.

[sunsbum]

Everyone needs to chill out on the losing Booker talk. It's so freaking premature at this point. Ryan has admitted that Devin has accelerated the time line. So right there that is him knowing and admitting that we need to get Booker help ASAP.

What his plans are I don't know but I don't feel all of a sudden Ryans just going to sit on his hands for the next 4 years.

I bet they are putting together a cousins/suns arena video as we speak in fact.

[JMac1]

Also, Kemba isn’t even the right type of guy to play with Booker. Warren is. The guy averages 20pts a game and it’s like really, how? Kemba is Bledsoe 2.0 IMO. If you get anyone it should be someone who plays totally different than Devin, Not the same, then we end up like Por.

[bwgood77]

It's nonsense to act like our window of keeping Devin Booker hinges on going win-now at the trade deadline. You guys act like it's right now or Booker is leaving and we're doomed for eternity. It's not. You sound like freaking Robert Sarver.

Haven't they also mentioned that the time to add the major piece is the summer of 2019? Even if Booker were to have a player option in a max deal, he would still be starting his max deal in 2019-20 right after the summer we have used the cap space on a free agent.

When Dudley and Chandler come off the books, if our cap space isn't clogged at that point, and before Booker's contract kicks in in 2019, we should have MAJOR cap space.

I think a vet PG or something should be added this summer. Even Hill wouldn't be bad because he comes off in 2019 when we'd have that enormous cap space and could really go all in.

To me our young players appear to be improving rapidly and I think if Triano is retained and he has the rest of this year and training camp they could look A LOT better next year. I expect JJ to work his ass off.

I think with just a decent PG on a one year deal could help us make a significant step next year without a big splash and then we'd have massive cap space in 2019 and could go after a big fish or make a big lopsided trade to take back more salary.

If we couldn't find such a FA or trade we could possibly keep that PG or make smaller moves.

I mean McD has been pretty clear with his plans. People know this, Booker knows this..Booker seems to love the teammates he has. They all want to win more and I think they will. They are young and will naturally get better. Adding someone 27 or 28 is someone who will likely naturally get worse since those are peak years. If we did, it would make more sense to do it when our young guys are closer to their peaks.

[TeamTragic]

Also, Kemba isn’t even the right type of guy to play with Booker. Warren is. The guy averaged ages 20pts a game and it’s like really, how? Kemba is Bledsoe 2.0 IMO. If you get anyone it should be someone who plays totally different than Devin, Not the same, then we end up like Por.

Exactly. We need to build around Booker/Warren/Bender/Chriss.

[WeekapaugGroove]

So I give examples of Durant and Lebron leaving and it is nonsense? No ... it's reality.

I say that Booker will sign a 5-year max with a player option for his fifth year and it is nonsense ... his agent would be stupid not to have a player option so Booker could increase his max money. Every star player has a player option in the last year of their contract.

I say we can't attract top coaches in our search with scrub PGs ... likely to be true since good coaches want a chance to win.

You didn't even think about it for half a second. SMH and some of the stupidity around here.

While I think we have more time than the deadline, I do think we need to go all out this summer. Hell a nice pick might help to be used as an asset this summer, if the right player isn't projected from the picks positioning.

Sure we have this summer as well ... but if we refuse to even look at options for this trade deadline then we only have this summer as an opportunity to add veteran players. Now think about how many big trades for high quality veteran players go down during the draft. Probably very few. Then we have free agency with the same roster we have now. Who can we lure to Suns with only Booker/Warren. This trade deadline is our prime opportunity to make an improvement. Otherwise I believe it will be hard to attract free agents as summer trades for stars hard to come by and we will be waiting until next Dec/Feb.

Dude FAR more player movement happens in the summer than the deadline.

[Scutt]

Exactly. We need to build around Booker/Warren/Bender/ Jackson.

Fixed for you

[hollywood6964]

While I think we have more time than the deadline, I do think we need to go all out this summer. Hell a nice pick might help to be used as an asset this summer, if the right player isn't projected from the picks positioning.

Sure we have this summer as well ... but if we refuse to even look at options for this trade deadline then we only have this summer as an opportunity to add veteran players. Now think about how many big trades for high quality veteran players go down during the draft. Probably very few. Then we have free agency with the same roster we have now. Who can we lure to Suns with only Booker/Warren. This trade deadline is our prime opportunity to make an improvement. Otherwise I believe it will be hard to attract free agents as summer trades for stars hard to come by and we will be waiting until next Dec/Feb.

Dude FAR more player movement happens in the summer than the deadline.

If we can get a deal, I'm cool with it. Other than that, Id rather lose the games n have a top 7ish pick, n then either use it, or trade it, possibly in a package, to get a pg, or big man star.

[DirtyDez]

Also, Kemba isn’t even the right type of guy to play with Booker. Warren is. The guy averaged ages 20pts a game and it’s like really, how? Kemba is Bledsoe 2.0 IMO. If you get anyone it should be someone who plays totally different than Devin, Not the same, then we end up like Por.

Exactly. We need to build around Booker/Warren/Bender/Chriss.

Even though that core isn't taking us anywhere I agree that Kemba isn't the right player for this team. You don't trade for him unless you're willing to pay him and that backcourt would hammer our cap. We're talking about 25m a year and only Booker is worth that.

[jredsaz]

OK. Let's look at what Kemba would actually cost.

Charlotte wants to trade Kemba, a bad contract, and get back a pick and/or a young player.

So. We would have to do a trade something like
Monroe, Chriss, a pick, and Dudley or a similar contract for Batum and Walker.

So, we would lose Monroe's expiring, that $17 million per year that comes back to us this summer.
Batum's deal is 22.4 million per year for for for years.
Kemba is $12 million per year.

So, basically we pay $34 million per year for 2 years.
We pay another $22 million for two years after he leaves, or in addition to whatever it costs to resign him.

Would we think that is a good FA signing?

We give up Chriss and Dudley for the privilege.

If we gave up NOTHING it would be a bad deal.

I think there is a deal for the Suns if we include Knight, Monroe, MIA 2018 1st, MIL 1st for Walker, Batum. Maybe not for the Hornets. But I am a Batum believer. His passing and shooting with his size and defensive versatility is still intriguing. In the right system surrounded by scorers like Booker, Walker, and Warren I think he can make a Horford like impact.

Would want to keep Chandler and Dudley because they become $23 million in expierings. Combine that with the remaining picks and rookie scale talent and the Suns are in a great positiin to go get the next available star player.

I like Batum as well, but not for that kind of dough. Maybe half that.....Jordan has to be one of the worst decision makers in the league.

In a vacuum you're absolutely right. But if you can build a team where Batum is the fourth best player on your roster - in spite of that high salary - then the impact of that high salary is mitigated.

Further, having expierings is important again. The cap will not double over the next three years. Chandler, Dudley, and our assets will provide the team flexibility in the trade market. The same can be said for an expirering Batum contract three years from now - the same year that Miami pick conveys.

The reason I would decide against this deal would be Walker. I'm not sold he is good enough to build this kind of deal around.

[Kerrsed]

Too bad the Spurs dont have the contracts, i could see them picking up Kemba and turning him into something special.

Kemba/Green/Kawaii/Gay/Aldridge

[WeekapaugGroove]

It's nonsense to act like our window of keeping Devin Booker hinges on going win-now at the trade deadline. You guys act like it's right now or Booker is leaving and we're doomed for eternity. It's not. You sound like freaking Robert Sarver.

Haven't they also mentioned that the time to add the major piece is the summer of 2019? Even if Booker were to have a player option in a max deal, he would still be starting his max deal in 2019-20 right after the summer we have used the cap space on a free agent.

When Dudley and Chandler come off the books, if our cap space isn't clogged at that point, and before Booker's contract kicks in in 2019, we should have MAJOR cap space.

I think a vet PG or something should be added this summer. Even Hill wouldn't be bad because he comes off in 2019 when we'd have that enormous cap space and could really go all in.

To me our young players appear to be improving rapidly and I think if Triano is retained and he has the rest of this year and training camp they could look A LOT better next year. I expect JJ to work his ass off.

I think with just a decent PG on a one year deal could help us make a significant step next year without a big splash and then we'd have massive cap space in 2019 and could go after a big fish or make a big lopsided trade to take back more salary.

If we couldn't find such a FA or trade we could possibly keep that PG or make smaller moves.

I mean McD has been pretty clear with his plans. People know this, Booker knows this..Booker seems to love the teammates he has. They all want to win more and I think they will. They are young and will naturally get better. Adding someone 27 or 28 is someone who will likely naturally get worse since those are peak years. If we did, it would make more sense to do it when our young guys are closer to their peaks.

Correct me if I'm wrong but bookers extension number would count against the cap space the summer of 19. So that does cut into the available room even with chandler, Dudley, and daniels coming off the books.

To me this summer seems like a great window to make some moves. If they renounce Monroe and Len they will have near max room. So they could sign someone and also try to use some of the extra picks and/or a young guy attached to an expiring contract of chandler or dudley to grab another guy on a longer deal. Add a couple pieces like that along with a top 7 pick and this could be a very improved team in one offseason.

[TeamTragic]

Exactly. We need to build around Booker/Warren/Bender/ Jackson.

Fixed for you

I forgot about Jackson. We need him for defensive purposes

[jredsaz]

It's nonsense to act like our window of keeping Devin Booker hinges on going win-now at the trade deadline. You guys act like it's right now or Booker is leaving and we're doomed for eternity. It's not. You sound like freaking Robert Sarver.

Haven't they also mentioned that the time to add the major piece is the summer of 2019? Even if Booker were to have a player option in a max deal, he would still be starting his max deal in 2019-20 right after the summer we have used the cap space on a free agent.

When Dudley and Chandler come off the books, if our cap space isn't clogged at that point, and before Booker's contract kicks in in 2019, we should have MAJOR cap space.

I think a vet PG or something should be added this summer. Even Hill wouldn't be bad because he comes off in 2019 when we'd have that enormous cap space and could really go all in.

To me our young players appear to be improving rapidly and I think if Triano is retained and he has the rest of this year and training camp they could look A LOT better next year. I expect JJ to work his ass off.

I think with just a decent PG on a one year deal could help us make a significant step next year without a big splash and then we'd have massive cap space in 2019 and could go after a big fish or make a big lopsided trade to take back more salary.

If we couldn't find such a FA or trade we could possibly keep that PG or make smaller moves.

I mean McD has been pretty clear with his plans. People know this, Booker knows this..Booker seems to love the teammates he has. They all want to win more and I think they will. They are young and will naturally get better. Adding someone 27 or 28 is someone who will likely naturally get worse since those are peak years. If we did, it would make more sense to do it when our young guys are closer to their peaks.

The wait til 2019 theory is fine but who is to says the options the Suns have in free agency that summer are any better than possible trade scenarios they have now. Dismissing trade options available now on the bases that they would limit cap flexibility in two years is poor decision making. Cap flexibility is one of many considerations. The goal is building a championship team around Booker and there are a lot of ways to go about doing that.

[Jdiddy701]

Too bad the Spurs dont have the contracts, i could see them picking up Kemba and turning him into something special.

Kemba/Green/Kawaii/Gay/Aldridge

Why would you want the Spurs to be special?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kerrsed]

Too bad the Spurs dont have the contracts, i could see them picking up Kemba and turning him into something special.

Kemba/Green/Kawaii/Gay/Aldridge

Why would you want the Spurs to be special?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I wouldnt, lol.

Im just saying, Kemba seems like one of those players that is a fringe star, yet if he got on the Spurs, all of a sudden his game would change in the ways that it needs to and he would become a great player.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

It's nonsense to act like our window of keeping Devin Booker hinges on going win-now at the trade deadline. You guys act like it's right now or Booker is leaving and we're doomed for eternity. It's not. You sound like freaking Robert Sarver.

Haven't they also mentioned that the time to add the major piece is the summer of 2019? Even if Booker were to have a player option in a max deal, he would still be starting his max deal in 2019-20 right after the summer we have used the cap space on a free agent.

When Dudley and Chandler come off the books, if our cap space isn't clogged at that point, and before Booker's contract kicks in in 2019, we should have MAJOR cap space.

I think a vet PG or something should be added this summer. Even Hill wouldn't be bad because he comes off in 2019 when we'd have that enormous cap space and could really go all in.

To me our young players appear to be improving rapidly and I think if Triano is retained and he has the rest of this year and training camp they could look A LOT better next year. I expect JJ to work his ass off.

I think with just a decent PG on a one year deal could help us make a significant step next year without a big splash and then we'd have massive cap space in 2019 and could go after a big fish or make a big lopsided trade to take back more salary.

If we couldn't find such a FA or trade we could possibly keep that PG or make smaller moves.

I mean McD has been pretty clear with his plans. People know this, Booker knows this..Booker seems to love the teammates he has. They all want to win more and I think they will. They are young and will naturally get better. Adding someone 27 or 28 is someone who will likely naturally get worse since those are peak years. If we did, it would make more sense to do it when our young guys are closer to their peaks.

Correct me if I'm wrong but bookers extension number would count against the cap space the summer of 19. So that does cut into the available room even with chandler, Dudley, and daniels coming off the books.

To me this summer seems like a great window to make some moves. If they renounce Monroe and Len they will have near max room. So they could sign someone and also try to use some of the extra picks and/or a young guy attached to an expiring contract of chandler or dudley to grab another guy on a longer deal. Add a couple pieces like that along with a top 7 pick and this could be a very improved team in one offseason.

I agree. I expect to us to grab a new starting center and PG this offseason, and to draft prospects to start earning minutes behind them. This is the point I've been trying to make in all of this -- that cap space could allow us to rent a quality PG for free this summer (like Hill or Rubio, say), acquire one of the PG RFAs (Payton, Smart, Napier or Neto) or simply give Tyreke a great one-year deal as a stopgap measure. In any case, we should be able to upgrade the PG spot with that cap space and put ourselves in a much better position than had we given up assets for Kemba and commit to giving him a huge contract the following summer.

We could also take a shot at Capela, if we're convinced that he's worth the max money that would require. As for the other free agent bigs available, I'd look at Derrick Favors and maybe Lucas Nogueira. I don't expect Cousins to be available, and I'd be worried about him fitting in with the rest of the kids, so I've tabled that thought. I'm not a fan of Nurkic and wouldn't gamble on Noel.
Upgrading the C via trade would mean taking on someone like Valanciunas, Koufos, maybe Dieng, or maybe Vucevic (about whom, personally, I say 'blech').

bw saying he thinks we should "easily" beat MIL without Giannis. I'm inclined to agree that we should win, but that's primarily because of how much Josh Jackson has progress this month. On a 36 MPG basis, he's averaging over 22, 6 and 3, on 47%FG and 39% 3FG. His efficient scoring has been a huge difference-maker for our bench unit. His quick improvement is a big reason for my optimism going into next season.

[NavLDO]

In what world is Kemba freakin Walker gonna attract big name FAs? Guys wanna player with superstars or other guys who will make them better. Kemba is neither of those.

So tell me, what 'player' or 'superstar', that is available for trade, can be forced to go play on the Suns this year, is within 5-6 years age of Warren and Booker, that make them 'better'.

Because Kemba was the 5th ranked PG by the players in the All-Star Voting in the East (Irving, Wall, Lowry, Simmons...so, yeah)

Don't mention a draft pick, because that's a non-starter. Nobody is trusting a kid who's never played in the NBA.

So, who?

67 PPG. That's what Kemba, Booker, and Warren are collectively putting up every night.

6.5 3s. that's what Kemba, Booker, and Bender are collectively putting up every night.

Kemba + Booker would be a draw - Guaranteed. Moreso than Unknown PG + Booker...which is essentially what a Rookie is.

I'm not against drafting a rookie; don't get me wrong. Just don't have it your mind that a Top 5 draft slot will have any impact on bringing in a FA this Summer. And don't think a better PG is going to become available, either.

Schroder, Dinwiddie, Russell, Dunn, Grant, Mudiay, Brogdon, Payton, Fultz, Napier, or Exum -- none of those names will be a draw nearly as much as Kemba...they just won't.

And definitely not Hill, or Dragic, or whatever other 30+YO has been mentioned.

So, what this boils down to, as far as I can tell, is are you ok with waiting another 2.5 to 3.5 years before possibly being relevant, or do you want to be relevant as possibly as early as this year (I didn't say likely, I said possibly, even if not likely). It wouldn't be the biggest turn around in NBA history to see a team go from 17-29 to 41-41 and into the Playoffs (The Clips are 23-22, so essentially .500 and the 8th seed).

Might we find a better option at rookie PG, in a couple of years, than where Kemba is now, and cheaper? Sure. It's also possible we won't...'bird in the hand' is the side I'm taking, even though it's obvious it's not the popular one.