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The Amazingly Sucky Ian Mahinmi Thread

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Re: The Amazingly Sucky Ian Mahinmi Thread 

Post#21 » by closg00 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:06 pm

In an analytical piece about how the Golden State Warriors are using Jordan Bell as a small ball center, Jonathan Tjarks relays an anecdote about how the number of traditional bigs in the NBA will continue to decline.

"There’s a positive feedback loop happening with small ball: The more teams play it, the less valuable every traditional 5 in the league becomes," writes Tjarks. "I talked to one executive who thinks the number of big men in the NBA will be cut in half by 2020. Every team will soon be looking for its own version of Jordan Bell, if they aren’t already."


The Warriors acquired the draft rights to Bell from the Bulls, who fell to the second round.

"The irony is that Bell is exactly the type of big man those teams need against Golden State," writes Tjarks. "He wouldn’t be as successful with less offensive talent around him, but a player with his skill set is inherently valuable."

The Warriors have a net rating of +14.9 when Bell has played this season, which is the fourth best mark on the team
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https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/248635/Exec-Number-Of-Big-Men-In-NBA-Could-Be-Cut-In-Half-By-2020
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Re: The Amazingly Sucky Ian Mahinmi Thread 

Post#22 » by FAH1223 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:43 pm

A+ trolling here by Sharp (who's a Wiz fan)

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Re: RE: Re: The Amazingly Sucky Ian Mahinmi Thread 

Post#23 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:47 pm

FAH1223 wrote:A+ trolling here by Sharp (who's a Wiz fan)

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I think Ian Mahinmi for Kevin Love makes all the sense in the world for Cleveland.

LeBron needs a traditional big man like Ian Mahinmi.
Tre Johnson is the future of the Wizards.
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Re: The Amazingly Sucky Ian Mahinmi Thread 

Post#24 » by nate33 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:30 pm

closg00 wrote:
In an analytical piece about how the Golden State Warriors are using Jordan Bell as a small ball center, Jonathan Tjarks relays an anecdote about how the number of traditional bigs in the NBA will continue to decline.

"There’s a positive feedback loop happening with small ball: The more teams play it, the less valuable every traditional 5 in the league becomes," writes Tjarks. "I talked to one executive who thinks the number of big men in the NBA will be cut in half by 2020. Every team will soon be looking for its own version of Jordan Bell, if they aren’t already."


The Warriors acquired the draft rights to Bell from the Bulls, who fell to the second round.

"The irony is that Bell is exactly the type of big man those teams need against Golden State," writes Tjarks. "He wouldn’t be as successful with less offensive talent around him, but a player with his skill set is inherently valuable."

The Warriors have a net rating of +14.9 when Bell has played this season, which is the fourth best mark on the team
.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/248635/Exec-Number-Of-Big-Men-In-NBA-Could-Be-Cut-In-Half-By-2020

At this point, teams only need one legit big man on their roster, just so they can match up with the handful of true centers left in this league. You don't want to be stuck guarding Cousins, Drummond or DeAndre Jordan with Markieff Morris for 36 minutes. But your 2nd unit center doesn't have to be a true big man because nobody else has a legit low-post offense threat big man on the 2nd unit.

Acquiring Mahinmi was profoundly stupid. We should have just gone after a PJ Tucker type of player. You can always find room for guys like that. And if not, at least they're movable. I'd rather be trying to dump a guy like Demarr Carroll than Ian Mahinmi.
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Re: The Amazingly Sucky Ian Mahinmi Thread 

Post#25 » by I_Like_Dirt » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:48 pm

nate33 wrote:At this point, teams only need one legit big man on their roster, just so they can match up with the handful of true centers left in this league. You don't want to be stuck guarding Cousins, Drummond or DeAndre Jordan with Markieff Morris for 36 minutes.


Not necessarily Markieff Morris, because, well... but to be honest, going small isn't really bad idea even against those guys. You want a bit of size, but the reality is that if you can't get a multi-tool C, you're better off without one. The era of the big, unskilled (relative other players in the league) C is over.

Skilled Cs are still going to have a place in the league. They aren't going to be as dominant as they used to be, but they're still going to have a place and be very good. The guys who aren't going to be in the league are bigs who really aren't super committed to the game but are reasonably coordinated and/or athletic and are willing to play anyway because somebody is going to pay them millions to do it.

See, Morris may be a problem for 36 minutes game in and game out, but if you stop throwing big money at guys like Mahinmi, and even Gortat (I love Gortat, but the NBA is starting to pass him by, even though he's still been pretty good this season), you suddenly have a LOT of money available to pay multiple variations of Markieff (hopefully better ones). It's that kind of swiss army knife approach that is simply more effective than having one C on your roster for the odd superstar out there. You're much better off challenging that superstar on both ends of the floor overall, so if you can find a legitimately good C of your own, fine. If you can't, and even if you can, going the path of multiple forwards with varying/overlapping skillsets is incredibly effective. It's no longer good enough just to be big. Being big is now more of a tiebreaker than anything, where if you aren't as good from a skill perspective, teams are going to be able to find some 6'8"-ish player who can do the trick while doing a bunch of other stuff, too.

The other interesting thing about Cs that most fans seem to have not caught on to just yet is that they largely aren't defensive players anymore and haven't been for a few seasons now. Most teams, even with star Cs, cede a worse ortg to their opponents with said C out there than with him on the bench. And teams that often run with multiple bigs tend to be teams that are better offensively than defensively. Look at the Wolves, who are actually pretty awful defensively but very good offensively. Teams like the Warriors, Rockets and Raptors manage to do both, with a variety of diverse forwards and Cs. The Celtics, meanwhile, have Horford as their only big, and he's probably a C at this point, but not really a traditional one the way people often think of them, and they run a bunch of inexperienced forwards and are great defensively but not so hot offensively.
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Re: The Amazingly Sucky Ian Mahinmi Thread 

Post#26 » by nate33 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:37 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
nate33 wrote:At this point, teams only need one legit big man on their roster, just so they can match up with the handful of true centers left in this league. You don't want to be stuck guarding Cousins, Drummond or DeAndre Jordan with Markieff Morris for 36 minutes.


Not necessarily Markieff Morris, because, well... but to be honest, going small isn't really bad idea even against those guys. You want a bit of size, but the reality is that if you can't get a multi-tool C, you're better off without one. The era of the big, unskilled (relative other players in the league) C is over.

Skilled Cs are still going to have a place in the league. They aren't going to be as dominant as they used to be, but they're still going to have a place and be very good. The guys who aren't going to be in the league are bigs who really aren't super committed to the game but are reasonably coordinated and/or athletic and are willing to play anyway because somebody is going to pay them millions to do it.

See, Morris may be a problem for 36 minutes game in and game out, but if you stop throwing big money at guys like Mahinmi, and even Gortat (I love Gortat, but the NBA is starting to pass him by, even though he's still been pretty good this season), you suddenly have a LOT of money available to pay multiple variations of Markieff (hopefully better ones). It's that kind of swiss army knife approach that is simply more effective than having one C on your roster for the odd superstar out there. You're much better off challenging that superstar on both ends of the floor overall, so if you can find a legitimately good C of your own, fine. If you can't, and even if you can, going the path of multiple forwards with varying/overlapping skillsets is incredibly effective. It's no longer good enough just to be big. Being big is now more of a tiebreaker than anything, where if you aren't as good from a skill perspective, teams are going to be able to find some 6'8"-ish player who can do the trick while doing a bunch of other stuff, too.

The other interesting thing about Cs that most fans seem to have not caught on to just yet is that they largely aren't defensive players anymore and haven't been for a few seasons now. Most teams, even with star Cs, cede a worse ortg to their opponents with said C out there than with him on the bench. And teams that often run with multiple bigs tend to be teams that are better offensively than defensively. Look at the Wolves, who are actually pretty awful defensively but very good offensively. Teams like the Warriors, Rockets and Raptors manage to do both, with a variety of diverse forwards and Cs. The Celtics, meanwhile, have Horford as their only big, and he's probably a C at this point, but not really a traditional one the way people often think of them, and they run a bunch of inexperienced forwards and are great defensively but not so hot offensively.

Good post.

Regarding Gortat, I don't think the league has really passed him by because he is still a real problem for teams trying to guard him with a small player. Gortat can pick-and-roll small guys to death and he's really good at crashing the offensive glass. And that's the key, your center has to have some method of victimizing teams when they go small. Gortat still can, at least on offense. (Gortat is a problem because his defense has slipped. His issue is Father Time, not necessarily his style of play.)

Other Gortat types of players (pick-and-roll guys who are too big for smalls to guard) like Hassan Whiteside, Clint Capela, Deandre Jordan and Rudy Gobert can still be very effective on offense. Obviously, it's even better when they're good rim protectors at the other end.

Mahinmi, on the other hand, has no tools to force the opponent to defend him with a true center. When he walks on the court, opposing coaches should immediately go small.
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Re: The Amazingly Sucky Ian Mahinmi Thread 

Post#27 » by I_Like_Dirt » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:17 pm

Even for Gortat, I believe it's more than just father time. He isn't the only C out there having a hard time justifying his playing time despite being incredibly efficient and effective offensively. Those are some of the few last remaining holdouts, but even those guys, Gortat included, are finding their roles squeezed. Gortat is certainly facing father time as well, but I'd suggest that father time is also a bit of a fortunate coincidence for him in terms of his career, at least insofar as it actually can be. It isn't just that their matchup needs to score as efficiently as they do, but rather, they can't be giving up that much more efficiency spread across the board to the other team, which is largely what happens. The Heat play Olynyk more than Whiteside, and they're wise to do so.

Gortat is actually a very good offensive player overall, but it won't be enough. Teams are starting to role with 3 or 4 ballhandlers out there, with potential points of attack all over the floor and teams full of guys who can shoot 35%+ from 3, which is better than shooting 50% on 2s. Every player needs to be able to move everywhere on both sides of the floor. You can easily handle a C who isn't so versatile offensively if they're going to punish a team inside, because other teams will struggle to guard that. The problem is, even for guys shooting insane %s inside, it still isn't enough to overcome their issues on defense where opposing teams simply give them what they get on offense and more than compensate on the other side of the floor. Gortat's defense has slipped some due to father time, but also a lot due to the direction the league has gone in. Heck, I've seen games this season where opposing teams went small and turned even the likes of Cousins and Embiid into net negatives, and those guys are phenomenal talents. The Raptors just did it to Embiid not so long ago, watching him dominate Valanciunas and Ibaka early only to have him turn into a net negative over the course of the game as they went small and, while he still got his, overall he was far less effectively.
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Re: The Amazingly Sucky Ian Mahinmi Thread 

Post#28 » by FAH1223 » Thu Dec 27, 2018 4:57 am

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