Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 5

[lilfishi22]

Does anyone think we could get a late first out of Monroe?

We could if we took back a bad contract.

I'd rather have the cap space.

Minus $18m cap space + taking on a bad contract = one late 1st....


Pass

[jredsaz]

We could if we took back a bad contract.

I'd rather have the cap space.

Minus $18m cap space + taking on a bad contract = one late 1st....


Pass

I didn't say I would do it. Just said that's the only way you get a 1st for Monroe. I would say it depends on the contract and the pick.

[bwgood77]

Monroe was basically included to match salaries and cap space relief. I'm sure there was always hope McD could get something with the contract but the chances were low. You'd basically have to find a playoff team who needed that...and needed it enough to give up something. I don't think anything more than a 2nd could be expected. A playoff team would only have late firsts, but I can't think of one that might want him. Coveted centers are mostly defensive rim protectors and possibly finishers. Looking at the standings, the only team I can see potentially wanting him enough to give up anything is the Wizards.

[Revived]

I’d like to see Reed get more minutes going forward. Play him ahead of House & Daniels as the main backup SG so we can see what he has.

[thamadkant]

Too bad the Spurs dont have the contracts, i could see them picking up Kemba and turning him into something special.

Kemba/Green/Kawaii/Gay/Aldridge

They need Parker and Ginobili to retire...

[MathiasPW]

Does anyone think we could get a late first out of Monroe?

I doubt it. If a team wants a big these days, they want either elite scoring with range or elite defense. Monroe doesn't have range and he's not much of a defender. I just don't see any team needing him enough to give up even a late 1st.

His value at this point is either comparatively average player at another position or cap space.

Monroe is a great passer. He fits well for inside out offenses that don't have a good driving PG. Unfortunately, I think most teams like that have already a good C (Denver, Knicks, Lakers, Jazz)

[NavLDO]

IDK if Kemba is the right player, but I would love to get a good PG to start for us now and next season.

I do not care how good are Trae Young or Doncic...even if we are lucky enough to get one of them (I doubt it) they are not gonna be good enough to start for a playoff team in the NBA.

Look Jamal Murray...he is great and in his second season is playing well as a starter, but he was mediocre at best as a rookie. A lot of other examples are out there in the league.

It is soooo difficult to be a playoff team with a rookie PG starting...nearly impossible. And we want to fight for the playoffs seriously next season.

I want an starting PG who has played already in the NBA. If we draft Doncic or Young they can play backup minutes and if they play outstanding basketball we can always trade that veteran starting PG. Not a problem at all.

I don't know if Young or Doncic could start as a rookie on a playoff team but they are both a heck of a lot better prospects than Jamal freakin Murray was. He doesn't even really pass. What did he average in college, like 2 assists per game? It'll probably still be tough to make the playoffs next year regardless of who our PG is if the rest of the west is healthy.

I'm pretty down on the suns most times, but actually do think, if healthy, n we get a borderline all star pg, we can fight for a playoff spot next year. Now it'd be 7 or 8, 6 at the very outside, but it's a start.

Thank you...a voice of reason. It doesn't have to only be the "#3 Seed" or #3 Pick" option...there's option C. which is build upon what we have now, and get an 'all-star-level' player in here now to pair with Booker, and maybe Warren, JJ, Chriss, Bender...depending on what the trade details are...and move toward relevancy.

Kemba's already proven he can take a mediocre team to the playoffs; imagine what he could do with Booker, plus one more high-level talent, which I'm positive we already have on the roster in the form of one of the aforementioned 4 players. And if not, we'll still have a late lotto pick.

If not Kemba, then I feel that's a mistake, but I certainly hope before the trade deadline they still make an effort at getting someone better than we have that is young enough to take this team forward.

[Qwigglez]

If no teams are willing to trade Kemba then they obviously wouldn't have any incentive to trade him. He's a star who loves it there, the fans love him there and he wants to stay. They thought they'd dangle him to get rid of wrong contracts. I seriously doubt he just gets traded and they keep all the other vets with long term contracts but not Kemba. Would make zero sense.

The incentive would be to bottom out and get a better draft pick and hopefully get more draft picks from other teams. If their team is this bad with him, they will most certainly be even worse without him.
Here is why it makes sense to me to trade Kemba only. MKG is still only 24, and Zeller is only 25. Batum and Williams are their long term bad contracts because they go into 2019-20 (Batum has a player option for 2020-21). Dwight expires after next season so they really don't need to trade him as it could water down what offers they get if they attach him. He could be a great expiring contract to a team next year trying to make salary cap space, where the Hornets could potentially get a mid-first to late 1st pick. No one is going to touch Batum or Williams IMO. They just aren't worth their contracts, and if the Hornets try trading them along with Kemba, then they will get a really poor offer that doesn't help their future.

I still stand by my belief that it would be the best interest for the Hornets to trade Kemba alone to get the most back in a trade but I also understand if they believe they should hold onto him and maybe try and improve over the summer or even next year when Dwight has an expiring contract which could be an asset in a deal.

[NavLDO]

I was waiting for someone to bring up this comparison because most know I was very pro-kyrie. But there's a huge difference between Kemba and Kyrie.

1. Kyrie is 25. Kemba is already 27
2. Kyrie is a legit All-star. Kemba is a borderline all-star
3. Kyrie would've cost us a 1st in a good draft. Asking price for Kemba is probably a 1st in an even better draft.
4. Both guys will need a new deal next offseason and I'd much rather pay a younger , more experienced and better Kyrie more money than Kemba for $30m a yr.

On the surface it seems like a good comparison but it isn't really the same situation.

Umm...ok, I didn't really compare them, but, whatever. I ONLY said, they were both 'all-star-level' talents.

But hey, I'll play...

- Kemba only costs $12M per, Kyrie would've cost $19.5M per, freeing up $7M more to spend this summer...
- Kyrie's avg'ing 24.1/5/3.6 on a good team / Kemba's avg'ing 21.7 / 5.8 / 3.3 on a crap team (notice the higher asst rate)
- Lonzo Ball received more than twice as many votes than Booker in All-Star Voting this year (607k vs 268k)...guess he's a TRUE All-Star, and Booker is only a Borderline one, huh?
- to the bolded above...since when does 424 equal more than 485...that's the # of gms played by both in the NBA. Or were you referring to "playoff games with Lebron leading your team" - Yep, Kyrie's more experienced.
- Kyrie didn't get to the playoffs until LeBron came back; Kemba led his team with Al Jefferson being the best player.
- Kemba did it again in '15-'16 with Batum, Jefferson, Lee, MKG, W. Williams, Lin...you know, that star studded cast...

So don't tell me that just because Kyrie got to play with LeBron for 3 years, then was gifted from the top team in the East, to the #2 team in the East, or Vice Versa, depending how you look at, that he's SOO much better than Kemba, because I'll take the non-entitled Kemba over the 'entitled' Kyrie, even with the 2 year age difference. There are 38 players age 33+ in the NBA, 21 of which are still playing meaningful minutes for their teams. That's a minimum of 6 years for Kemba, most likely. Nash played until when? Paul is 32. Parker is still playing at age 35...Ginobili, the 'machine' is 40...of course, those are outliers, but point is, 27 is not too old for us. 30-31?? Absolutely.

But to compare the two, and act like Kyrie is SOOO much better than Kemba is horse dung. He's a better shooter; that's true. Outside of that, they are darn near equal in most other skillsets, and Kemba has a better attitude, to be frank. Not to mention, again, that Kemba has accumulated his stats on teams without superstar talent surrounding him for half his career.

But all this aside, my intention was never to compare the two in the first place, OTHER than, to show that they are both PGs, they were/are both made available for trade, they both can make our team better, and they are both 'all-star-level' talents.

Here's Kemba compared to "true All-Stars" and tell me if you see and appreciable difference, and why they deserve oh-so-much-more...

http://bkref.com/tiny/NxC20

I'll show you why...

11th Place Charlotte Wins 18 Losses 26

"First, it was Kyrie wasn't good enough; the current leading scoring PG. Now it's Kemba, the current 6th leading scoring PG isn't good for the Suns. Both are 'all-star-level' talents."

That's a comparison. You're saying these two players are comparable 'all star' talent when they're clearly not.

Both guys are short term money, it's what they'll make after this contract which is what needs to be considered since you're giving up assets with the intention of keeping them long term.

Kyrie is also a legit all-star and has been an all-NBA player. -- Because he's played on winning teams!! With LeBron!! Who DOESN'T look better with Lebron!

Kemba is 27 and basically a fringe all-star. It's entirely debateable whether he should even be an all-star this year. But let's not talk about all-star, let's talk about MVP candicdacy. I don't think Kyrie will win it this year but he's in the running. Kyrie is clearly on a different level to Kemba

Experience - I'm talking playoff experience, ECF experience, Finals experience, Championship experience. -- OK, well now that Kyrie is not available, which PG with Playoff Experience would you like to go after? Would you like to spend that 1st Rd pick on a player WITH experience (Kemba) or on a Player without Experience (Sexton--we're not getting Young/Doncic, but even so...) I'll take Kemba, thanks.

Clearly I'm not talking about games played. This is one of the primary reasons Kyrie is worth trading for. His experience at the very highest levels of basketball, even if it was next to Lebron is super valuable. Understanding and having a championship mindset is not something you can just acquire without being at that high level.

The Bobcats got to playoffs with Al Jefferson, who at the time, was still in his prime and was one of the best post threats in the game and legit 20/10 guy. Let's not be so quick to forget that Al Jefferson at one point his career was one of the best big men in the league and was an All-NBA player. -- He was 3rd Team All-NBA...ONCE. Let's compare that to LeBron...

The guy was legit in a time when slow but strong big men could still be a core part of a playoff team. The Cats weren't star studded but at least Kemba had help. Kyrie was the only guy on those Cavs teams. He was their only offensive threat until they got a young Dion Waiters who wasn't ready to contribute at a high level. And I definitely don't blame Kyrie for Lebron joining the team and 'gifting' him a contending team.

My whole point is you can't use whiffing on Kyrie example as a justification for trading for Kemba. We (and the realGM board) can debate who's the better player and therefore who's more valuable but if weren't willing to give up a 1st round pick for Kyrie, I definitely wouldn't give up our 1st round pick for Kemba. -- And that's your opinion, and your entitled to it. I would, because Kyrie is not that much better.

If all it took to get Kemba was one of the Bucks/Miami picks and Monroe, then I'd definitely consider it but I wouldn't give up much more.

Whatever man...it's a pointless argument, because Kyrie isn't available. And as I said...Ball got over 2X the votes that Booker got, and will likely continue to...is he better than Booker? How about Klay?? He's a true All-Star...has nothing to do with the team he plays on, right?

I said...'all-star-level' talents...because, as I showed, his talents are every bit as comparable to those being selected as All-Stars, yet because he's not Wall, Kyrie, Simmons, etc....he's not gonna get there, even if he matches up favorably to them.

[Mr Puddles]

Monroe was basically included to match salaries and cap space relief. I'm sure there was always hope McD could get something with the contract but the chances were low. You'd basically have to find a playoff team who needed that...and needed it enough to give up something. I don't think anything more than a 2nd could be expected. A playoff team would only have late firsts, but I can't think of one that might want him. Coveted centers are mostly defensive rim protectors and possibly finishers. Looking at the standings, the only team I can see potentially wanting him enough to give up anything is the Wizards.

This. Just look at what we got for PJ Tucker last year who was on a much smaller contract (hence easier to move) and would have been useful to most playoff teams in the league.

We'd basically need to find a team who would be willing and able to absorb Monroe's, without taking back any salary of our own, as well as get some sort of asset in the process. In the unlikely scenario, we're able to even move Monroe, it won't be for more than a second rounder.

The only scenario I could see of him getting moved if it's in combination with one of our young guys as a salary filler.

Hypothetical scenario:
Chriss + Monroe + some sort of pick

for

Kemba Walker

More likely though, he'll just get bought out

[NavLDO]

Neither, I'd stay with the Pels if those are my choices.

Cool. He's gonna take a pay cut? Because I showed how that's not gonna happen, unless I'm misinterpreting how the Cap and Luxury tax works for teams.

Rondo won't be playing for them, BTW, nor Clark, or Jameer Nelson, or Cunningham. They don't fit under the Salary/Luxury Tax cap next season.

Or, he can play on the team with the better, same aged PG, better, and younger SG and SF(s)(I'm keeping Warren, since there are those that feel we'll take on contracts rather than give actual assets), and two 20-YO PFs...plus money to go get more talent, if required.(And yes, even if we take contracts, sign Kemba and Boogie, we're still better off than the Pels financially, because we can dump Chandler, BK, and Dudley by the time we need to sign Kemba and Booker, so long as it's not Batum's contract.)

So, you can be 'cute' with your answer there, and yeah, he may not choose us? But unless something drastic happens, I don't see a scenario where Boogie gets a full Max and plays for Pels.

Pelicans didn't trade for Cousins to not be able to resign him. They will do everything in their power to resign him and it's been reported that the Pels planning that max extension for him. Is it in their best interest to do that? Probably not but a team like Pels will do what they can do retain talent.

From a financial standpoint, Cousins has already lost millions by not be eligible for the super max when he was traded to the Pelicans. He'll be set to lose more if he doesn't resign with the Pels. I don't see the Suns as being a significantly better proportion from a team perspective to give up more millions to leave Pels.

It doesn't matter whether he signs with us or the Pels...same money...

Because the Pelicans did not draft Cousins, they cannot offer the same extension to him. They will try and convince Cousins, based off the second half of this season and the beginning parts of next, to stay in New Orleans, or else he can walk as an unrestricted free agent in 2018.

Wherever he goes, Cousins will warrant maximum money, but by switching teams, his new “maximum” amount is less than what it could have been with the Kings. That’s why Cousins’ agent tried to dissuade teams from trading for his client. It’s always about the money.

And, as I already showed in another post, good luck, Pels...

[lilfishi22]

Cool. He's gonna take a pay cut? Because I showed how that's not gonna happen, unless I'm misinterpreting how the Cap and Luxury tax works for teams.

Rondo won't be playing for them, BTW, nor Clark, or Jameer Nelson, or Cunningham. They don't fit under the Salary/Luxury Tax cap next season.

Or, he can play on the team with the better, same aged PG, better, and younger SG and SF(s)(I'm keeping Warren, since there are those that feel we'll take on contracts rather than give actual assets), and two 20-YO PFs...plus money to go get more talent, if required.(And yes, even if we take contracts, sign Kemba and Boogie, we're still better off than the Pels financially, because we can dump Chandler, BK, and Dudley by the time we need to sign Kemba and Booker, so long as it's not Batum's contract.)

So, you can be 'cute' with your answer there, and yeah, he may not choose us? But unless something drastic happens, I don't see a scenario where Boogie gets a full Max and plays for Pels.

Pelicans didn't trade for Cousins to not be able to resign him. They will do everything in their power to resign him and it's been reported that the Pels planning that max extension for him. Is it in their best interest to do that? Probably not but a team like Pels will do what they can do retain talent.

From a financial standpoint, Cousins has already lost millions by not be eligible for the super max when he was traded to the Pelicans. He'll be set to lose more if he doesn't resign with the Pels. I don't see the Suns as being a significantly better proportion from a team perspective to give up more millions to leave Pels.

It doesn't matter whether he signs with us or the Pels...same money...

Because the Pelicans did not draft Cousins, they cannot offer the same extension to him. They will try and convince Cousins, based off the second half of this season and the beginning parts of next, to stay in New Orleans, or else he can walk as an unrestricted free agent in 2018.

Wherever he goes, Cousins will warrant maximum money, but by switching teams, his new “maximum” amount is less than what it could have been with the Kings. That’s why Cousins’ agent tried to dissuade teams from trading for his client. It’s always about the money.

And, as I already showed in another post, good luck, Pels...

I don't know about that. He wasn't eligble for the designated player max because he was traded from the team that drafted him but he could still get the max that can be offered by a team that's holding his current contract. He can get the 5 year max with the higher raises that he can't get from the open market. Am I wrong on this?

[lilfishi22]

Does anyone think we could get a late first out of Monroe?

I doubt it. If a team wants a big these days, they want either elite scoring with range or elite defense. Monroe doesn't have range and he's not much of a defender. I just don't see any team needing him enough to give up even a late 1st.

His value at this point is either comparatively average player at another position or cap space.

Monroe is a great passer. He fits well for inside out offenses that don't have a good driving PG. Unfortunately, I think most teams like that have already a good C (Denver, Knicks, Lakers, Jazz)

He's a good passer but these days bigs without great D and are slow just doesn't get PT. Same reason why despite being the Warriors best big man defender, Bogut went from 27mpg in the playoffs, to 23mpg the following year and then to 16mpg in his final season with the Warriors. He didn't even play the last two playoff games in the Finals. Teams these days are looking for the Capelas, guys who are great PnR guys, who can play defense and just cover big areas on D. Offense is almost optional.

If one of these types of players aren't available, they rather play small with a natural 4 at the C. This is why even though Bender can't really bang in the middle, he still has value

[Qwigglez]

I don't know about that. He wasn't eligble for the designated player max because he was traded from the team that drafted him but he could still get the max that can be offered by a team that's holding his current contract. He can get the 5 year max with the higher raises that he can't get from the open market. Am I wrong on this?

After doing a little digging this is what I found out from this article...
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18723235/nba-explaining-demarcus-cousins-deal

Q: So Cousins won't re-sign with the Pelicans?

A: That's a question for another day. He can still sign a five-year extension this summer, but he has almost no incentive to do so. He can re-sign a max extension with the team in 2018 for about five years and $180 million, which means this trade could end up costing him $30 million over the long haul. The real motivation was to re-sign in Sacramento. But he's under contract for next season, so the Pelicans have time to work it out.

Also found this...

The Pelicans are planning a five-year maximum offer to Cousins approaching an estimated $175 million. The marketplace, as it stands, isn’t exactly teeming with attractive alternatives for Cousins to consider, with rival suitors limited to offering four-year deals. New Orleans is thus a heavy favorite to keep its throwback big-man tandem of Cousins and Anthony Davis intact. 4 days ago – via New York Times

And lastly found this...

Spoiler:

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[BobbieL]

Does anyone think we could get a late first out of Monroe?

We could if we took back a bad contract.

I don't want a bad contract - George Hill - even for a late first for Monroe

Suns having that cap space is more valuable than a late first. Suns already have two firsts , three seconds and if Milwaukee kind of flattens out - will have three firsts.


Maybe the Suns trade Monroe and a second for a late 1st but for me - all that cap space is a big deal.

The trade you should be asking is can the Suns move Chandler for an expiring contract - or contract package that rids the team of some of his cap space next year?

[Qwigglez]

I just want to be clear that I really don't want to trade for Kemba Walker if it comes down to taking another contract off the Hornets hands. However, I would be interested in seeing if these players were made available and what the price would be: Zach Lavine, Aaron Gordon, D'Angelo Russell, Dennis Schroder, Myles Turner. I know all of those guys would likely cost a lot if they were available, but one guy who may be waiting to break out on another team that may not break the bank would be WCS from the Kings. Not sure if they are going to extend him this off-season or maybe wait til the following off-season for him to hit RFA and let the market decide his value, but I would be willing to give up an asset or two to get him. Not sure he is much of an upgrade from Len, but he at least looks like he can catch the ball in traffic and finish. Something Len seems to struggle with.

[dremill24]

Pelicans didn't trade for Cousins to not be able to resign him. They will do everything in their power to resign him and it's been reported that the Pels planning that max extension for him. Is it in their best interest to do that? Probably not but a team like Pels will do what they can do retain talent.

From a financial standpoint, Cousins has already lost millions by not be eligible for the super max when he was traded to the Pelicans. He'll be set to lose more if he doesn't resign with the Pels. I don't see the Suns as being a significantly better proportion from a team perspective to give up more millions to leave Pels.

It doesn't matter whether he signs with us or the Pels...same money...

Because the Pelicans did not draft Cousins, they cannot offer the same extension to him. They will try and convince Cousins, based off the second half of this season and the beginning parts of next, to stay in New Orleans, or else he can walk as an unrestricted free agent in 2018.

Wherever he goes, Cousins will warrant maximum money, but by switching teams, his new “maximum” amount is less than what it could have been with the Kings. That’s why Cousins’ agent tried to dissuade teams from trading for his client. It’s always about the money.

And, as I already showed in another post, good luck, Pels...

I don't know about that. He wasn't eligble for the designated player max because he was traded from the team that drafted him but he could still get the max that can be offered by a team that's holding his current contract. He can get the 5 year max with the higher raises that he can't get from the open market. Am I wrong on this?

No, you’re right. His max money with Kings > with Pels > with anyone else (barring S&T).

Nav is also putting some hard cap number on the Pels that would only exist if the Pels wanted to be hard capped (making a specific transaction type and hitting the luxury tax apron’s “hard cap”).

[Qwigglez]

I think if there is a great opportunity this summer they should go for it. I just don't know that the free agent pool is as good or what trade opportunities will be there. But if a Booker extension does count against the cap in 19 it would make sense to make a move sooner. I guess there is a chance he would wait to sign a max until the summer of 19 to allow us to utilize that cap space before he signs though. Since he is all about winning and adding pieces to make big improvements, then he would know it makes sense to wait to allow this to happen. Though any agent/player may also want to do it sooner in case of injury (even though I still think we'd give him a max if he got injured).

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2017/10/12/phoenix-suns-devin-booker-contract-extension-robert-sarver-ryan-mcdonough/750881001/

Just want to mention if Booker waited until 2019 to actually sign his contract, then he should immediately get into the ROH because that would allow us to potentially give out two max contracts in 2019 and then sign him afterwards. I doubt it though.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I think if there is a great opportunity this summer they should go for it. I just don't know that the free agent pool is as good or what trade opportunities will be there. But if a Booker extension does count against the cap in 19 it would make sense to make a move sooner. I guess there is a chance he would wait to sign a max until the summer of 19 to allow us to utilize that cap space before he signs though. Since he is all about winning and adding pieces to make big improvements, then he would know it makes sense to wait to allow this to happen. Though any agent/player may also want to do it sooner in case of injury (even though I still think we'd give him a max if he got injured).

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2017/10/12/phoenix-suns-devin-booker-contract-extension-robert-sarver-ryan-mcdonough/750881001/

Just want to mention if Booker waited until 2019 to actually sign his contract, then he should immediately get into the ROH because that would allow us to potentially give out two max contracts in 2019 and then sign him afterwards. I doubt it though.

Technically yes if they play the waiting game they could try to use more space that summer. But I wouldn't mess around with that unless it was 100% Bookers idea. But I can't see any agent or player messing around and not taking their life changing extension. It's just too big of a risk for Booker to not take that money. And it's too big of a risk for the Suns to play games with that extension. This is how the Wolves got themselves in trouble with Love; they didn't give him the max because they thought they were saving it for Rubio and that started some of the bad blood from Love towards the team. I also think the fact that Gordon Hayward had to get an offer on the restricted market the first time he hit FA played some factor into him leaving this time around (and it directly took a year off of his deal he could have signed if they extended him early).

Bottom line is if you have a guy you are sold and want to build around just get him locked up. I'm so happy Booker took a step this year because if he was playing at last years level of good but not great I think this is a trickier extension because they would have wanted to extend him but i don't think he was a no brainer max guy at that level of play.

[gaspar]

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