RealGM 2017 Top 100 #83 (Chris Webber)

[RSCD3_]

I havent visited in a while but Im throwing my vote to Carmelo Anthony

For their roles as primary offensive options and hypothetical secondary options I like melo more, he has higher resiliency vs tough defense IMO and his injury history is far better than webber.

[dhsilv2]

I havent visited in a while but Im throwing my vote to Carmelo Anthony

For their roles as primary offensive options and hypothetical secondary options I like melo more, he has higher resiliency vs tough defense IMO and his injury history is far better than webber.

And your thoughts on their defensive ability?

[RSCD3_]

I havent visited in a while but Im throwing my vote to Carmelo Anthony

For their roles as primary offensive options and hypothetical secondary options I like melo more, he has higher resiliency vs tough defense IMO and his injury history is far better than webber.

And your thoughts on their defensive ability?

I see carmelo as underrated defensively, webber still has the edge overall and during his defensive peak but once he started getting hurt he became a liability to quicker players, while melo has shown in NY and other times he can maintain good defense for a season when he isnt lifting everything and heck even 2014 when he had a ridiculous amount of offensive dependency he still was quite good on that end. He's also improved a decent amount since coming back to OKC.

[Clyde Frazier]

Any thoughts on why RAPM is so down on Melo? I don't have 14 which is a glaring omission for Melo, but even 13 he was ranked 98th in the league. I'm not one to say that means he was the ~100th best player in the league, but that's just horrible. He was 209 in 08. 43 in 2010.

97-14 RAPM

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/97-14-rapm-2

219th to Webber at 185 (includes the down side of his career and doesn't have his early career which was likely still quality but I'm speculating).

I get the case of availability, but Melo's defense was awful by these metrics at times in his career. Almost and times negating his positive offensive play.

I will concede that his his impact data doesn’t align as well you’d expect with statistical production. That said, I still consider it one tool in the player evaluation toolbox as opposed to a standalone metric for ranking players. I also know that’s technically not its intention anyway, but I’d say many people ignore that when looking at the data.

I’ve pointed to the historically awful PG rotations during his NY tenure. And really, i’m not sure why a front office would think pairing iverson with him made any sense at the time. I’d say a player’s impact is limited when they aren’t used properly. In a hypothetic scenario where say he played his whole career with billups, i’m sure the impact stats would look better.

We’re also in the 80s now as opposed to say inside the top 60. All players are going to have some flaws at this point. I’d stress to voters who may not be in love with carmelo’s game to at least weigh the positives with the negatives. I’m not about to call myself totally objective (we’re human, so it’s not possible), but I am able to acknowledge good players who I don’t like.

The problem here is Melo is seen as a bad defender. RAPM would paint a picture of not just a bad defender but possibly a real liability. Offensively, I don't see any real issues with Melo in RAPM. Perhaps if used better and with better point guards his offense would have been even better, but I don't see how that addresses his defense.

I agree we're in the 80's and I've said he's on my radar, but he's going against Webber who's peak advanced stats look comparable. Melo has a better WS by 15 points (which is about 2 good seasons of play) and Webber is over Melo by almost 16 in VORP which is like 4 of Melo's best seasons. And while Webber was not gem in RAPM, he scores out very well as a second tier player most years, while Melo struggles to make the top 40.

I agree we have flawed players left, but there even stats that should favor consistency and longevity don't scream it is melo over Webber. And again the issue is on the defensive side of the ball where Melo might be the worst height to defense guy we've discussed, Dan might be similar we don't have data from that era.

I would make the distinction between carmelo as someone who wasn't anything special defensively and guys who actually couldn't defend like amare, boozer and at times harden. With amare and boozer you felt like it was a combo of disinterest and literally not knowing how to play D (amare even admitted as such later in his career).

With harden i said "at times", as he's shown to be a passable defender, but when he's careless it's on an all time bad level. Carmelo never really displayed that kind of ineptitude in large volume. He also showed to be a better defender at the 4 later in his career, albeit not playing there as often as he should have.

[Clyde Frazier]

Of course Anthony looks better in this specific comp. You just compared 13-16 Anthony, which includes his two best seasons, to post prime and knee injury Webber. Comparing their first 9 or 10 seasons would paint a very different picture.

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Re-read the context of my post. It’s specifically about webber’s durability and later career decline. I didn’t frame it as a prime vs. prime comparison.

I understand the context of the post. It's just that nobody is making a case for Webber based on longevity/ durability. It's all about the prime and earlier seasons. We already dock him for the short prime and durability issues, but don't see Melo as good enough for his longevity/ durability to make that much of a difference.

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I mean... that comes down to criteria, then. I value longevity and durability highly. So whlie I also have webber in the top 100, i give carmelo the edge here as he hasn't had as stark of a decline in production later in his career.

[trex_8063]

Thru post #45:

Chris Webber - 6 (Dr Positivity, Doctor MJ, SactoKingsFan, penbeast0, dhsilv2, pandrade83)
Carmelo Anthony - 4 (RSCD3_, Outside, Clyde Frazier, trex_8063)


Calling it for Webber. Will have the next up in a moment.

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