KIDD FIRED - Hughes/Grgurich also fired - Vin Baker Hired

[El Duderino]

I am not sure that is what happened with the Bucks. Too often I would see two or three players converge on the ball handler, leaving others wide open (Maker and Liggins in particular). I did not see that kind of breakdown in Kidd's first season with more veteran players on the court. I realize that it doesn't always work to cite a small sample of breakdowns, but I wonder what percent of the breakdowns were due to a lack of execution.

Maybe it was a mix of less cerebral players and opposing teams figuring out how to beat the defense via moving the ball.

Either way, the defense hasn't been good for to long, so the coaches have a job to figure out what will work best with players on the roster vs continuing to force a defensive plan which consistently was getting torched because players on the team can't execute it in an effective manner. Adapt to what you have.

[Jez2983]

Brad Stevens needs to coach more like Kidd if he really wants his players to be successful. IMO.

Read on Twitter

I'm a bit new to Cowherd, really started with the whole Giannis is not Lebron thing. So I'm not going to say much here.


But it is amazing that it takes him 3 minutes to essentially say what could be summed up in 1-2 sentences.

[milwaukee bunks]

"Whatever the front office can do to make us a championship team, it can happen. If it's me getting traded..."

Read on Twitter

Go to Bucks Twitter if you can't view this.

for his stature in the nba dude has to be one of the most likable stars

[paulpressey25]

Some organic improvement should be expected regardless of coaching, but Bucks players seem to develop better than most under Kidd. Let's not fail to give him his due for those accomplishments

I agree with this. Kidd gave those guys some tough love that's made them better players. It just that he's failing the in game coaching and personnel thing. So he had to go.

[Pachinko_]

You guys are overthinking it

The team is bad and it doesn't matter whose fault it is, players, owners, coach.
By definition the only one of the 3 you can change is the coach, so that's who you change.

Besides the guy gave up. When you say that's all I can do with this team because they are too young (or whatever), you have given up. Next man up.

[fan230]

Several Bucks made great progress under Kidd.

Antetokounmpo is the gold star example. His development was an all-time accomplishment.

Maker made great progress. He is a much better player than he was one year ago, even though he has shown less than he did in the playoffs last year.

Middleton has developed into a near All-Star. He has improved his scoring almost every year, especially under Kidd. In the last two years his play making has improved notably, as evidenced by an increase in assists per game/36 minutes.

Brogdon has made great progress in a season and a half. He was extremely limited at the start of last season. Now he is a solid roatation player who makes big contributions at crunch time.

Parker was a much better player under Kidd than he was when he came into the league - even though missing much time to injury.

Some organic improvement should be expected regardless of coaching, but Bucks players seem to develop better than most under Kidd. Let's not fail to give him his due for those accomplishments just because of our warranted dislike of his limitations during games and with X's and O's.

Very well written!

[blazza18]

You could swap Kidd for literally any other head coach in the league and Giannis would've become just as good or better. Most coaches would have him better considering they wouldn't have him playing in a clown show of a defensive scheme and wouldn't create a mental block with his jumpshot telling him not to shoot for a year.

Giannis went from skinny kinda weak kid to freakiest athlete in the league, and refined his ball skills to the point where he could handle an offensive centerpiece role. Sweeney and Suki >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kidd in Giannis' development.

Just as good or better? Giannis is a top 5 player in the entire league. Kidd did Giannis a great service molding him into Shaq and not Tracy McGrady. If we had Scott Skiles or Terry Stotts I don't think Giannis is as good as he is now.

Hard to dispute a counterfactual I know, but it's what I believe. I'm not saying he shouldn't have been fired - he clearly earned it (Lakers pick/Jabari relationship/our current record) ... I just don't understand why so many ppl on here are going out of their way to not give Kidd any credit for Giannis's development.

Just not sure how much credit a guy deserves for waiting until MCW was hurt to give the clearly more talented player the ball to do stuff with.

[blazza18]

Was pretty excited to hear the Lowe/Windhorst podcast to see what info there would be on the Kidd firing. An hour podcast and outside of mentioning it happened on Monday there was no talk at all.

[HKPackFan]

I thought that book cover was a bad photoshop job.

Why the hell is playoffs hyphenated?

I had a steaming bowl of oat-meal this morning.

Woah, this is real.

[Gianstoppable]

Several Bucks made great progress under Kidd.

Antetokounmpo is the gold star example. His development was an all-time accomplishment.

Maker made great progress. He is a much better player than he was one year ago, even though he has shown less than he did in the playoffs last year.

Middleton has developed into a near All-Star. He has improved his scoring almost every year, especially under Kidd. In the last two years his play making has improved notably, as evidenced by an increase in assists per game/36 minutes.

Brogdon has made great progress in a season and a half. He was extremely limited at the start of last season. Now he is a solid roatation player who makes big contributions at crunch time.

Parker was a much better player under Kidd than he was when he came into the league - even though missing much time to injury.

Some organic improvement should be expected regardless of coaching, but Bucks players seem to develop better than most under Kidd. Let's not fail to give him his due for those accomplishments just because of our warranted dislike of his limitations during games and with X's and O's.

You had me until you said Thon has made great progress. What exactly are you seeing that nobody else is?

Also, Parker is better under Kidd than when he came into the league? He was arguably the most NBA ready drafted. Kidd put him in a position
To fail defensively as well. You're giving Kidd too much credit.

I guess I just don't see it is all. He deserves some credit but good players should get better the older they get. If Kidd was really a good developer his pick in Vaughn should have been the next big thing and Thon would be at least on Giannis rookie year level.

[awd4cy]

Wow, just saw that clip of those clowns on PTI. Lol, what a bunch of morons. I like how they think Giannis will be great but isn’t great yet. It bothers me that the National media pays no attention until something like this happens and think that they are qualified to make all these hot takes. They are totally clueless and better stick to just talking about the Cavs, Warriors, and Celtics like they always do.

Watch on YouTube

[old skool]

I am not sure that is what happened with the Bucks. Too often I would see two or three players converge on the ball handler, leaving others wide open (Maker and Liggins in particular). I did not see that kind of breakdown in Kidd's first season with more veteran players on the court. I realize that it doesn't always work to cite a small sample of breakdowns, but I wonder what percent of the breakdowns were due to a lack of execution.

Maybe it was a mix of less cerebral players and opposing teams figuring out how to beat the defense via moving the ball.

Either way, the defense hasn't been good for to long, so the coaches have a job to figure out what will work best with players on the roster vs continuing to force a defensive plan which consistently was getting torched because players on the team can't execute it in an effective manner. Adapt to what you have.

I agree 100% about the need to adapt. I am less certain as to how long the coaches should give young/inexperienced players the chance to learn something. All learning consists of a combination of success and failure. If the Bucks see a glimmer of hope for Maker, I would prefer that they work hard to convert that hope to reality (Own the Future) rather than replace him with someone with less upside (Win Now) but some measure of instant gratification.

Thanks to all for the discussion.

[RogerMurdock]

I saw the edited title of this thread and my first thought was, "WTF? What did Telly Hughes ever do to anyone?"

I am so relieved.

[old skool]

You had me until you said Thon has made great progress. What exactly are you seeing that nobody else is?

As bad as Thon is today, he was incredibly horrible a year ago. He hardly ever knew where to be on offense or defense. On offense he was so lost that he just camped at the 3-point line. He could barely set a screen. On defense he was always lost, scrambling first to his man, then to someone else, often ending up guarding open space. Today he seems to know where to be at least 50% of the time. I also see him being more competitive fighting other bigs for position and more under control overall, resulting in a major reduction in fouling.

Don't confuse those improvements with any thought that Maker is a competent NBA player. He is one of the worst rotation players at his position of backup C. I think the Bucks are right to have moved him to the bench and reduced his minutes, but let's not close the book on a player who has barely played in 100 NBA games. Maker's scoring and rebounding production per 36 minutes for 100+ games is roughly the same as Giannis' after 100+ games. Maker might turn out to be a bust and his regression this year is troubling, but if the Future is the priority, I think his overall improvement warrants more chances to grow.

[Balls2TheWalls]

The "he got us to 2 years of the playoffs" is an amazing narrative for me. Somehow having a superstar gets no credit for getting to the playoffs, but Jason Kidd carried our young, incapable of winning, garbage, team on his back to the playoffs for two straight years. I'm actually dumbfounded by how little the national media actually pays attention to us aside from writing things about Giannis.

[Aaron It Out]

That Giannis interview was relieving as ****. That kid is genuine as hell and I love him so much.

[Gianstoppable]

The "he got us to 2 years of the playoffs" is an amazing narrative for me. Somehow having a superstar gets no credit for getting to the playoffs, but Jason Kidd carried our young, incapable of winning, garbage, team on his back to the playoffs for two straight years. I'm actually dumbfounded by how little the national media actually pays attention to us aside from writing things about Giannis.

Especially since over half the league makes the playoffs. Overall record is more telling of what he's done here and that's under .500

[Gianstoppable]

You had me until you said Thon has made great progress. What exactly are you seeing that nobody else is?

As bad as Thon is today, he was incredibly horrible a year ago. He hardly ever knew where to be on offense or defense. On offense he was so lost that he just camped at the 3-point line. He could barely set a screen. On defense he was always lost, scrambling first to his man, then to someone else, often ending up guarding open space. Today he seems to know where to be at least 50% of the time. I also see him being more competitive fighting other bigs for position and more under control overall, resulting in a major reduction in fouling.

Don't confuse those improvements with any thought that Maker is a competent NBA player. He is one of the worst rotation players at his position of backup C. I think the Bucks are right to have moved him to the bench and reduced his minutes, but let's not close the book on a player who has barely played in 100 NBA games. Maker's scoring and rebounding production per 36 minutes for 100+ games is roughly the same as Giannis' after 100+ games. Maker might turn out to be a bust and his regression this year is troubling, but if the Future is the priority, I think his overall improvement warrants more chances to grow.

I see what you mean, I thought you were saying Kidd somehow turned Thon into a good player. The thing we will never know unless we coach the team ourselves is who can actually take credit for personnel improvement. There's so many coaches on NBA teams nowadays it wouldn't shock me if most these guys contribute more to assistants than the head coach. Giannis and maybe Thon are the only guys I've ever heard saying Kidd improved their game and while Giannis has become great he puts in the work to become just that. I truly believe he was destined for greatness, even if we had a bottom 10 coach, which we did.

[Frank Nova]

The "he got us to 2 years of the playoffs" is an amazing narrative for me. Somehow having a superstar gets no credit for getting to the playoffs, but Jason Kidd carried our young, incapable of winning, garbage, team on his back to the playoffs for two straight years. I'm actually dumbfounded by how little the national media actually pays attention to us aside from writing things about Giannis.

Especially since over half the league makes the playoffs. Overall record is more telling of what he's done here and that's under .500

Yep I agree with this 100%. Nevermind the "weak East" narrative or anything, making the playoffs is supposed to be this heroic effort when in reality we were a fringe playoff team to begin with based on talent alone and if we were in the western conference we wouldn't have sniffed the playoffs once under Kidd.

Congratulations, you're the 16th best team out of 30, man, the head coach is doing such a terrific job. You even won 2 out of 6 games in the 1st round, how dare you fire the head coach. He's the only reason the Milwaukee Bucks are relevant. #greenfont. GTFOH with that crap. The national media always sucks when it comes to small market teams.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

so kidd is personally responsible for the individual improvement and breakout of half the squad while he bears no responsibility for the team stagnating and performing worse over that same time period.

the getting worse as a team is on the players while the talent explosion goes to kidd.

seriously wtf. this is the most nut debate ive ever heard on this board.