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KIDD FIRED - Hughes/Grgurich also fired - Vin Baker Hired

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Re: RE: Re: KIDD FIRED - Hughes/Grgurich also fired 

Post#1481 » by Pachinko_ » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:02 am

old skool wrote:
Pachinko_ wrote:So you have a guy who is so long he can literally dunk on his tiptoes, and they had to change his shot mechanics because someone was going to block him. At the 3 pt line. And easily as well.

Ok, thanks.


He started his jump shot low, from his waist, in a slow looping motion. That shot was never going to be functional in the NBA. Not only would it be easy to block but it took him so long to get the shot off that it only worked when he was wide open. He had one of the slowest releases in the NBA. His shot mechanics improved completely after the new coaching staff came in. The improvement was readily apparent.
He is 6'11" and freakishly long, zero chances someone is blocking him especially at the 3pt line. His jump shot is totally BS, he is trying to shoot 3s with a full motion like a guard when he should be shooting them like a C, stationary and with the ball never coming below eye level. See Mark Gasol or Jokic shooting 3s and you'll see what I mean. I dont know WTF they're teaching him but they got it all wrong. What he's trying to do is way harder than it needs to be.

IMO of course.

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Re: RE: Re: KIDD FIRED - Hughes/Grgurich also fired 

Post#1482 » by Pachinko_ » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:05 am

truly wrote:
Pachinko_ wrote:Brogdon is exactly the same player he was last year LOL
His role changed because we got Bledsoe, so he shoots a little more and passes a little less, everything else is the same.


Brogdon has improved his finishing around the basket.He uses the backboard a lot better than last year.You can see that he worked on it the past offseason.
I dont know but at the end if the day his per minute production is exactly the same as last year except what I said: he swapped some passes for shots, thats it.

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Re: KIDD FIRED 

Post#1483 » by Whiteman » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:51 am

old skool wrote:I am not sure that is what happened with the Bucks. Too often I would see two or three players converge on the ball handler, leaving others wide open (Maker and Liggins in particular). I did not see that kind of breakdown in Kidd's first season with more veteran players on the court.

As PP pointed out, losing Zaza, Dudley and (maybe) Ersan has had a big impact on the defense. Having players who know where to be, who know where others need to be, and who communicate this is essential. Currently the Bucks are short on defensive leaders, and possibly on defensive IQ. That would be an issue for any defense, but it's worse in a system that requires near-perfect positioning and communication at all times.

I realize that it doesn't always work to cite a small sample of breakdowns, but I wonder what percent of the breakdowns were due to a lack of execution. Contrary to the general opinion here that the Bucks coaches are inept dummies, I would expect that the coaching staff would have been able to distinguish if execution failures were the problem, or if teams had identified a way to beat the Bucks' defensive scheme. I also expect that if players were executing the defense reasonably effectively and were still getting beat, the players would have pointed that out to the coaches, even if the staff disagreed.

Clearly there were many execution failures - you could see them every game. And just as clearly, other teams knew what to do against the Bucks defense. Several opposing players even said so in interviews - against the Bucks you'll get your corner threes.

We know Sweeney is the architect of this defense, but we don't know how he feels about its implementation. Jason Kidd was the only one responsible for that. Considering how rigid Kidd was with his defense (rarely adjusting for opponent), how long he stuck with his aggressive trapping, and how he publicly lied about changing it, I think he deserves all the criticism he got.

That is even before discussing the idea that any defensive scheme in the NBA will work without a physical defensive center. The only reason for Maker to ever be on the court is to develop him for the future. No coach is safe when Maker gets meaningful minutes at center at this point of his career.

The Bucks are among the worst teams in the league in points allowed at the rim. When both your centers have the lower body strength of a newborn giraffe, that is to be expected. Agreed that this is a problem independent of system.
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Re: KIDD FIRED - Hughes/Grgurich also fired 

Post#1484 » by randy84 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:02 pm

old skool wrote:
Pachinko_ wrote:So you have a guy who is so long he can literally dunk on his tiptoes, and they had to change his shot mechanics because someone was going to block him. At the 3 pt line. And easily as well.

Ok, thanks.


He started his jump shot low, from his waist, in a slow looping motion. That shot was never going to be functional in the NBA. Not only would it be easy to block but it took him so long to get the shot off that it only worked when he was wide open. He had one of the slowest releases in the NBA. His shot mechanics improved completely after the new coaching staff came in. The improvement was readily apparent.


Looking at his rookie year, I don't see it. If anything, he is slower to get the shot off now than he was before. He kind of has a hitch where it appears he is thinking about whether or not he should shoot the ball. This definitely gives the defense more time to get out to cover him.
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Re: KIDD FIRED - Hughes/Grgurich also fired 

Post#1485 » by JustinCredible » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:05 pm

Just count the number of times Brogdon and Middleton say the word ‘positive’ in their recent interviews and how important that is to this team right now.

They are saying that Kidd was too negative without saying it. You can tell despite Brogdons answer when asked that specifically. These guys did not like Kidd.
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Re: KIDD FIRED - Hughes/Grgurich also fired 

Post#1486 » by randy84 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:08 pm

3Diamantidis wrote:
Nowak008 wrote:
Prez wrote:You could swap Kidd for literally any other head coach in the league and Giannis would've become just as good or better. Most coaches would have him better considering they wouldn't have him playing in a clown show of a defensive scheme and wouldn't create a mental block with his jumpshot telling him not to shoot for a year.

Giannis went from skinny kinda weak kid to freakiest athlete in the league, and refined his ball skills to the point where he could handle an offensive centerpiece role. Sweeney and Suki >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kidd in Giannis' development.


Just as good or better? Giannis is a top 5 player in the entire league. Kidd did Giannis a great service molding him into Shaq and not Tracy McGrady. If we had Scott Skiles or Terry Stotts I don't think Giannis is as good as he is now.

Hard to dispute a counterfactual I know, but it's what I believe. I'm not saying he shouldn't have been fired - he clearly earned it (Lakers pick/Jabari relationship/our current record) ... I just don't understand why so many ppl on here are going out of their way to not give Kidd any credit for Giannis's development.


Yes i don't get that either.

If there's one thing kidd did well, it's giannis development.
People can say anything they want but i can't think of many coaches that would have given the reigns to giannis to be a PG 2 yrs ago.
And although the team went on a different direction just after 2 months(with delly), this move made wonders for giannis confidence.
The shot....i don't know if it was the right thing to not let him shoot for a year but i think that giannis has improved on that too.

Secondly, all this convo is a little bit insulting for giannis. If he feels that kidd was a major key for his development none of us can say otherwise. Giannis knows better. We can talk only for games. Practices, vacations, endless travels throughout the country for 3,5 years. A coach can influence and inspire a player in many ways that aren't easily anticipated by us.

Kidd should be fired a long ago. It was the logical thing to do. But i won't discredit him for giannis. Never did.


Actually it was Larry Drew's idea to make Giannis a point-forward.
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Re: KIDD FIRED - Hughes/Grgurich also fired 

Post#1487 » by Gianstoppable » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:10 pm

old skool wrote:
Pachinko_ wrote:So you have a guy who is so long he can literally dunk on his tiptoes, and they had to change his shot mechanics because someone was going to block him. At the 3 pt line. And easily as well.

Ok, thanks.


He started his jump shot low, from his waist, in a slow looping motion. That shot was never going to be functional in the NBA. Not only would it be easy to block but it took him so long to get the shot off that it only worked when he was wide open. He had one of the slowest releases in the NBA. His shot mechanics improved completely after the new coaching staff came in. The improvement was readily apparent.


Well his 3-point shot is way worse now and to be fair he really should only be taking them when he's wide open anyway so having a low release point shouldn't really matter because he should mainly be taking them when he's unguarded. But hey, if they think eventually he can get to 35% with his 3 pointer and be able to shoot it over people that's even better.
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Re: KIDD FIRED - Hughes/Grgurich also fired 

Post#1488 » by randy84 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:12 pm

JustinCredible wrote:Just count the number of times Brogdon and Middleton say the word ‘positive’ in their recent interviews and how important that is to this team right now.

They are saying that Kidd was too negative without saying it. You can tell despite Brogdons answer when asked that specifically. These guys did not like Kidd.


I agree. I think Kidd jerking everyone's playing time around doesn't sit well with someone who came from a structured program like Tony Bennett's Virginia team.

It's surprising to hear about guys like Moose, Brodgon, heck as much as I thought Mids was Kidd's boy, it sounds like Mids is even happy to see him go.

To me Kidd is a Scott Skiles without the Xs and Os. He coaching style is too grating on players.
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Re: KIDD FIRED - Hughes/Grgurich also fired 

Post#1489 » by 3Diamantidis » Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:10 pm

If wilson was horst choice, is it safe to say that his non development was also a factor for giving the boot to kidd?
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Re: KIDD FIRED - Hughes/Grgurich also fired 

Post#1490 » by chonestown » Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:16 pm

randy84 wrote:Looking at his rookie year, I don't see it. If anything, he is slower to get the shot off now than he was before. He kind of has a hitch where it appears he is thinking about whether or not he should shoot the ball. This definitely gives the defense more time to get out to cover him.


Someone on here posted Giannis's first preseason action when he was a rookie and I was struck by how much more fluid and quick his shot was. Mileage may vary, but that's what I saw.
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Re: KIDD FIRED - Hughes/Grgurich also fired 

Post#1491 » by skones » Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:18 pm

3Diamantidis wrote:If wilson was horst choice, is it safe to say that his non development was also a factor for giving the boot to kidd?


Highly doubt it. Not enough time to really develop him either way. (Even though I've always thought he was trash)
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Re: KIDD FIRED - Hughes/Grgurich also fired 

Post#1492 » by randy84 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:28 pm

skones wrote:
3Diamantidis wrote:If wilson was horst choice, is it safe to say that his non development was also a factor for giving the boot to kidd?


Highly doubt it. Not enough time to really develop him either way. (Even though I've always thought he was trash)


Worst part is that they joked that he can't rebound and still took him. Meanwhile I have to watch the guy who went two picks later in John Collins put up 13 pts, 16 rebs, and 4 blocks and be in the rising stars game.
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Re: KIDD FIRED - Hughes/Grgurich also fired 

Post#1493 » by skones » Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:35 pm

randy84 wrote:
skones wrote:
3Diamantidis wrote:If wilson was horst choice, is it safe to say that his non development was also a factor for giving the boot to kidd?


Highly doubt it. Not enough time to really develop him either way. (Even though I've always thought he was trash)


Worst part is that they joked that he can't rebound and still took him. Meanwhile I have to watch the guy who went two picks later in John Collins put up 13 pts, 16 rebs, and 4 blocks and be in the rising stars game.


Honestly, John Collins not being an absolute trainwreck on defense might be one of the most surprising things in this draft class early on. Moreso than Tatum suddenly being a knockdown shooter.
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Re: KIDD FIRED - Hughes/Grgurich also fired 

Post#1494 » by paulpressey25 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:48 pm

So Doug Russell tweeted out this morning that he was at practice Monday and didn't see nor hear about any fight, altercation, etc.

He seems to be going directly at that Big Unit report. This is going to get good.
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Re: KIDD FIRED - Hughes/Grgurich also fired 

Post#1495 » by crkone » Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:53 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:So Doug Russell tweeted out this morning that he was at practice Monday and didn't see nor hear about any fight, altercation, etc.

He seems to be going directly at that Big Unit report. This is going to get good.


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Re: KIDD FIRED - Hughes/Grgurich also fired 

Post#1496 » by dbrodz7 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:55 pm

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:so kidd is personally responsible for the individual improvement and breakout of half the squad while he bears no responsibility for the team stagnating and performing worse over that same time period.

the getting worse as a team is on the players while the talent explosion goes to kidd.

seriously wtf. this is the most nut debate ive ever heard on this board.


Sounds eerily similar to John Hammond being responsible for all the good moves over the years, but all the bad one's were due to meddling.
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Re: KIDD FIRED - Hughes/Grgurich also fired 

Post#1497 » by worthlessBucks » Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:58 pm

Hadn't heard Doug Russell's name for awhile.

3Diamantidis wrote:If wilson was horst choice, is it safe to say that his non development was also a factor for giving the boot to kidd?

*Sees mediocre college junior draft selection not developing in the pros*
*gets mad and fires head coach due to inability to perform miracle*
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Re: KIDD FIRED - Hughes/Grgurich also fired 

Post#1498 » by Matches Malone » Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:04 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:So Doug Russell tweeted out this morning that he was at practice Monday and didn't see nor hear about any fight, altercation, etc.

He seems to be going directly at that Big Unit report. This is going to get good.


Interesting... hope someone tagged Bill Michaels so he can see it :evil:
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Re: KIDD FIRED - Hughes/Grgurich also fired 

Post#1499 » by LuessiT » Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:08 pm

3Diamantidis wrote:If wilson was horst choice, is it safe to say that his non development was also a factor for giving the boot to kidd?


I have heard this multiple times so I wanted to refer to this: Horst was only installed shortly before the draft. I doubt he threw the scouting departments view out of the window and came up with his own board. The first draft he's fully accountable is this years.
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Re: KIDD FIRED - Hughes/Grgurich also fired 

Post#1500 » by Ron Swanson » Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:13 pm

He's accountable for Wilson just like Hammond is accountable for Alexander. I don't play the blame game with draft picks because it ultimately falls on the GM to make the final decision. If the reports of Kidd's waning influence since last year are accurate, then I don't believe for a second that Horst wasn't fully on board with the Wilson pick. I guess Horst just needs to go out and find his Giannis or Middleton to make up for it...

:nod:

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