KIDD FIRED - Hughes/Grgurich also fired - Vin Baker Hired

[LuessiT]

He's accountable for Wilson just like Hammond is accountable for Alexander. I don't play the blame game with draft picks because it ultimately falls on the GM to make the final decision. If the reports of Kidd's waning influence since last year are accurate, then I don't believe for a second that Horst wasn't fully on board with the Wilson pick. I guess Horst just needs to go out and find his Giannis or Middleton to make up for it...

Except that Horst has been with the organization for the last 9 years, it's not like he wasn't familiar with the scouts, or the information, or the workouts. He wasn't suddenly walking into a situation where he was forced to look at players in an entirely different range. He wasn't just appointed, he was in the room the whole time. Horst has been aggressive, I like it, but he doesn't deserve a pass for Wilson AT ALL.

He doesn't deserve a pass, but he shouldn't take all the blame. He should be judged somewhere inbetween.

[DingleJerry]

Kidd's best trait as a coach, to me, is his willingness to experiment, but I did not get the sense that he was very good at evaluating the results, which kind of defeats the purpose. Playing Pierce at the 4 was a stroke of brilliance and ahead of its time. But when more and more teams went to smaller lineups, his only idea was to post everybody up all the time, which is interesting in theory but turned out to be a bad value proposition, and he never gave up on it.

DUDE, you are obviously forgetting the "Smallest Ball" line up from earlier this season where he rolled out GP2, Brown, Brogdon and Bledsoe together? And I actually thought there was something like a GP2, Terry, Delly, Snell, Middleton line up or something to that effect earlier, but got tired of trying to look through line up data. I mean, if small is good, smallest is bestest.

If I remember correctly, he only went to Pierce at PF thing because Lopez got hurt. Not out of some coaching savant move. Othewise he'd have kept running out the Lopez/KG big lineup that was getting crushed for them.

[emunney]

Kidd's best trait as a coach, to me, is his willingness to experiment, but I did not get the sense that he was very good at evaluating the results, which kind of defeats the purpose. Playing Pierce at the 4 was a stroke of brilliance and ahead of its time. But when more and more teams went to smaller lineups, his only idea was to post everybody up all the time, which is interesting in theory but turned out to be a bad value proposition, and he never gave up on it.

DUDE, you are obviously forgetting the "Smallest Ball" line up from earlier this season where he rolled out GP2, Brown, Brogdon and Bledsoe together? And I actually thought there was something like a GP2, Terry, Delly, Snell, Middleton line up or something to that effect earlier, but got tired of trying to look through line up data. I mean, if small is good, smallest is bestest.

If I remember correctly, he only went to Pierce at PF thing because Lopez got hurt. Not out of some coaching savant move. Othewise he'd have kept running out the Lopez/KG big lineup that was getting crushed for them.

This is true, but the traditional response to Lopez getting hurt would be to replace his minutes with another big. Kidd should get credit for not doing that.

[skones]

He's accountable for Wilson just like Hammond is accountable for Alexander. I don't play the blame game with draft picks because it ultimately falls on the GM to make the final decision. If the reports of Kidd's waning influence since last year are accurate, then I don't believe for a second that Horst wasn't fully on board with the Wilson pick. I guess Horst just needs to go out and find his Giannis or Middleton to make up for it...

Except that Horst has been with the organization for the last 9 years, it's not like he wasn't familiar with the scouts, or the information, or the workouts. He wasn't suddenly walking into a situation where he was forced to look at players in an entirely different range. He wasn't just appointed, he was in the room the whole time. Horst has been aggressive, I like it, but he doesn't deserve a pass for Wilson AT ALL.

He doesn't deserve a pass, but he shouldn't take all the blame. He should be judged somewhere inbetween.

He deserves all of the blame just like any other GM would. Like I said, he was in the room the whole time. It wasn't a foreign situation.

[LuessiT]

Except that Horst has been with the organization for the last 9 years, it's not like he wasn't familiar with the scouts, or the information, or the workouts. He wasn't suddenly walking into a situation where he was forced to look at players in an entirely different range. He wasn't just appointed, he was in the room the whole time. Horst has been aggressive, I like it, but he doesn't deserve a pass for Wilson AT ALL.

He doesn't deserve a pass, but he shouldn't take all the blame. He should be judged somewhere inbetween.

He deserves all of the blame just like any other GM would. Like I said, he was in the room the whole time. It wasn't a foreign situation.

And he relied on the work our scouting department did for another GM.

[SirChurros]

Still don't think we can fairly assess Wilson until he gets actual minutes.

[skones]

He doesn't deserve a pass, but he shouldn't take all the blame. He should be judged somewhere inbetween.

He deserves all of the blame just like any other GM would. Like I said, he was in the room the whole time. It wasn't a foreign situation.

And he relied on the work our scouting department did for another GM.

It's not another GM. The scouting department also worked for Jon Horst. He's not new. He's part of the same entity that directed and took feedback from that scouting department.

[skones]

Still don't think we can fairly assess Wilson until he gets actual minutes.

More minutes don't make trash players look better.

[SirChurros]

Still don't think we can fairly assess Wilson until he gets actual minutes.

More minutes don't make trash players look better.

If you want to make that judgment off a guy playing 53 minutes, feel free to, but I'm not going to.

[skones]

Still don't think we can fairly assess Wilson until he gets actual minutes.

More minutes don't make trash players look better.

If you want to make that judgment off a guy playing 53 minutes, feel free to, but I'm not going to.

Well, good thing I'm not judging him off of 53 minutes. There's a lot more information out there.

[Jimmmycrackcorn]

Still don't think we can fairly assess Wilson until he gets actual minutes.

More minutes don't make trash players look better.

If you want to make that judgment off a guy playing 53 minutes, feel free to, but I'm not going to.

did you watch any of those minutes?

cuz if you did, you'd have the same conclusion.

too soft, too pathetic.

[Wooderson]

Kidd was also reticent to experiment with some things. It took him forever to give Giannis the ball to run the offense. He made excuse after excuse for not letting Giannis handle the ball. We made a lot of noise on twitter and on this forum, and months later he finally did it -- and then took all of the credit for it as being his idea.

Giannis confirmed yesterday that he was the one who told Kidd he wasn't ready to have large responsibilities as a playmaker. Sounds like Kidd intended to hand him the reigns from that first Summer League. This was Kidd's biggest positive imo, putting his trust in Giannis and gaining Giannis trust. You can definitely still question the trajectory he's taken as a playmaker under Kidd though and how they leverage his gravity and passing ability.

[M-C-G]

More minutes don't make trash players look better.

If you want to make that judgment off a guy playing 53 minutes, feel free to, but I'm not going to.

did you watch any of those minutes?

cuz if you did, you'd have the same conclusion.

too soft, too pathetic.

I'm not a Wilson fan, but I will give him some time under a new coach, actually, I am going to try and give everyone a blank slate, even Thon, even Wilson under not only Prunty but if a new coaching staff follows.

Wouldn't surprise me if some of those players that were the victim of Kidd's bullying and mind games were Vaughn, Wilson and Thon.

[M-C-G]

Still don't think we can fairly assess Wilson until he gets actual minutes.

More minutes don't make trash players look better.

Yeah, maybe, but we have seen guys like Henson oscillate between good and god awful, and so much of it has to do with how he is used (i.e. get him some touches on offense and define his role). May be that more guys are suffering in a similar way, like I said before, everyone is getting a clean slate right now from me.

[skones]

Still don't think we can fairly assess Wilson until he gets actual minutes.

More minutes don't make trash players look better.

Yeah, maybe, but we have seen guys like Henson oscillate between good and god awful, and so much of it has to do with how he is used (i.e. get him some touches on offense and define his role). May be that more guys are suffering in a similar way, like I said before, everyone is getting a clean slate right now from me.

Which is fair, but Henson has never been as bad as Maker or Wilson since he's been in the league. A new coach isn't going to help Thon hold position, catch a ball, grab a rebound, or just magically give him basketball instincts. There's only so much a coach can do.

[M-C-G]

More minutes don't make trash players look better.

Yeah, maybe, but we have seen guys like Henson oscillate between good and god awful, and so much of it has to do with how he is used (i.e. get him some touches on offense and define his role). May be that more guys are suffering in a similar way, like I said before, everyone is getting a clean slate right now from me.

Which is fair, but Henson has never been as bad as Maker or Wilson since he's been in the league. A new coach isn't going to help Thon hold position, catch a ball, grab a rebound, or just magically give him basketball instincts. There's only so much a coach can do.

Right, he could use him how he helps the team, which is parking his ass in the corner and hitting those baseline threes while drawing the big out to open up room for Giannis and Jabari. I want to say it was the Jan 1 game, so over three weeks ago Thon was looking in a great rythym in the corner and I don't know if I have seen him back there since. We see him fumbling and clogging up the lane, that much I know, but a player doesn't have to good to still be useful and right now if we could make Thon useful, I'll take it.

Wilson, I'd just have him pumped full of angry juice and see if he could be a stretch 5. Might not give you a ton but he does have some passing ability that might work from the top of the key in a super, super, super, super poor man Jokic way, and I am going out of my way to stress the supers in poor man there. To me, Wilson seems like a guy that could actually be good at basketball but seems like a guy that is equally happy just being here and probably just getting paid. Kind of like a younger Henson, but maybe even less gumption.

[skones]

In no way, shape, or form does Thon Maker shooting a 35% clip from the corner offset everything else he does terribly on the court. Can you make Thon look better? Probably. That doesn't mean he's a player you "use." The correct way to "use" Thon in games is to sit his ass on the bench and then later on "use" him to sweeten a trade while you can.

[hege53190]

He's accountable for Wilson just like Hammond is accountable for Alexander. I don't play the blame game with draft picks because it ultimately falls on the GM to make the final decision. If the reports of Kidd's waning influence since last year are accurate, then I don't believe for a second that Horst wasn't fully on board with the Wilson pick. I guess Horst just needs to go out and find his Giannis or Middleton to make up for it...

Except that Horst has been with the organization for the last 9 years, it's not like he wasn't familiar with the scouts, or the information, or the workouts. He wasn't suddenly walking into a situation where he was forced to look at players in an entirely different range. He wasn't just appointed, he was in the room the whole time. Horst has been aggressive, I like it, but he doesn't deserve a pass for Wilson AT ALL.

You act like Host’s voice was the most important one in the room last year. At best it was 6th and I highly doubt it was even that high.

He was just happy to be there at that point. Since then he got a great trade done and removed one of if not two of the voices in front of his.

Someone had a gif of little finger before and it was absolutely perfect. This is absolutely an early version little finger move.

BTW- can anybody tell me what Kidd’s firing means for Thorn’s involvement in this organization? I would love to know.

[skones]

He's accountable for Wilson just like Hammond is accountable for Alexander. I don't play the blame game with draft picks because it ultimately falls on the GM to make the final decision. If the reports of Kidd's waning influence since last year are accurate, then I don't believe for a second that Horst wasn't fully on board with the Wilson pick. I guess Horst just needs to go out and find his Giannis or Middleton to make up for it...

Except that Horst has been with the organization for the last 9 years, it's not like he wasn't familiar with the scouts, or the information, or the workouts. He wasn't suddenly walking into a situation where he was forced to look at players in an entirely different range. He wasn't just appointed, he was in the room the whole time. Horst has been aggressive, I like it, but he doesn't deserve a pass for Wilson AT ALL.

You act like Host’s voice was the most important one in the room last year. At best it was 6th and I highly doubt it was even that high.

He was just happy to be there at that point. Since then he got a great trade done and removed one of if not two of the voices in front of his.

Someone had a gif of little finger before and it was absolutely perfect. This is absolutely an early version little finger move.

BTW- can anybody tell me what Kidd’s firing means for Thorn’s involvement in this organization? I would love to know.

It doesn't matter if Horst's voice was loudest in the room under Hammond because it was loudest when we were on the board. What matters is that he was in the same room, seeing the same scouting reports, and generally receiving the exact same information as everyone else in the room. Director of Basketball Operations isn't some bit position like you're making it out to be. With all of that same information, HE decided on Wilson.

I'd buy it if he was completely new to the organization, unfamiliar with the scouts, still getting a grasp of team needs, etc. He wasn't.

[ReasonablySober]

Wilson's a rookie who's barely played.