Game 48 : Phoenix Suns (17-30) at Indiana Pacers (25-22), Wednesday, Jan 24, 5PM MST

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Can we leave Bender in Indiana?

I wouldn't mind that. We'll happily take him. Dude's gonna be a stud.

Give us Sabonis for him and you can have him.

Do not take Revived's opinions as representing anything like a consensus. Dude lives on his own limb out here.

[Revived]

I wouldn't mind that. We'll happily take him. Dude's gonna be a stud.

Give us Sabonis for him and you can have him.

Do not take Revived's opinions as representing anything like a consensus. Dude lives on his own limb out here.

If you wouldn’t take Sabonis for Bender then I think you’re the one living on your own limb out there man. I never said I represent the consensus or anything either even though the 4 posts below mine are favorable for me.

[bwgood77]

Do not take Revived's opinions as representing anything like a consensus. Dude lives on his own limb out here.

There are a number of Bender haters. Many just look at individual stats. 12 of our 15 best +/- units for the season include Bender. http://stats.nba.com/lineups/traditional/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612756&sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1

or, a more advanced one...in 7 out of 10 best 5 man lineups in net rating... http://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612756&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1

[thamadkant]

I wouldn't mind that. We'll happily take him. Dude's gonna be a stud.

maybe in the bedroom full of strippers, after some viagra and alcohol.


But on the court?.... hmmm

You realize you're writing off a mobile, 3pt shooting 7'1 player at 20 years of age? Big men really reach their prime/peak when they're 27-28 years old. Still a long way until Bender reaches his.

It was a joke.

I don't mind Bender. And like him when he plays like he has balls between his legs... Which is every few games.

[thamadkant]

Do not take Revived's opinions as representing anything like a consensus. Dude lives on his own limb out here.

Sabonis is better than Bender so far.

Bender is still just potential

Sabonis is already a good player.

[bwgood77]

You realize you're writing off a mobile, 3pt shooting 7'1 player at 20 years of age? Big men really reach their prime/peak when they
re 27-28 years old. Still a long way until Bender reaches his.

Yes, that is rampant on this board; JJ sucks half the time too...depending on which game you just watched. Same with Bender/Chriss.

There's never a guarantee, but my goodness, he played less than 1/2 a season, and this season, he is still only starting when Chriss is out, and still not getting a tone of minutes. It would be nice to wait until he's been given a chance on an NBA team with a half-way decent Caoch and PG.

That's a major issue though. Let's say he only takes til 26 to reach an age where he can start on a good team. You'd have to put 7 years into a guy who's just going to be a fairly good player. 7 years of toiling, giving away minutes, mistake after mistake, dropping games.....that's too long. Even if he's a decent 6th man 2 years prior, that's still 4-5 years to get to that point. HUGE investment. I just don't like high draft pick projects, they're typically high risk, moderate reward at best.

That being said (in general), I do think Bender has some skills, I just don't know if he'll put it together.

Next year is an important year. He has made drastic improvements in his 3 ball and defensive rotations, and also his passing can be very good. People complain about his defense some, but everyone else is worse.

His overall offense outside of shooting needs a lot of work though.

He's only played 91 games at an avg of 18 mpg, so he's still barely a rookie. He never got much real game time last year to understand what was important to work on in the offseason (and of course, had Watson to teach him)...so this off season is important for development.

Silly to write him off now though, but not unexpected that many people do. Happens all the time.

[bwgood77]

Do not take Revived's opinions as representing anything like a consensus. Dude lives on his own limb out here.

Sabonis is better than Bender so far.

Bender is still just potential

Sabonis is already a good player.

We knew this coming in. Bender would take a few years but would likely be better at 3s, blocking shots, and have higher upside. You can take the safe player and get to the treadmill. Or you can take the raw high potential guy, then get another nice draft pick or two, and hopefully a couple of them reach that potential.

Drafting safe players with limited upside doesn't usually lead you really far.

[hollywood6964]

Yes, that is rampant on this board; JJ sucks half the time too...depending on which game you just watched. Same with Bender/Chriss.

There's never a guarantee, but my goodness, he played less than 1/2 a season, and this season, he is still only starting when Chriss is out, and still not getting a tone of minutes. It would be nice to wait until he's been given a chance on an NBA team with a half-way decent Caoch and PG.

That's a major issue though. Let's say he only takes til 26 to reach an age where he can start on a good team. You'd have to put 7 years into a guy who's just going to be a fairly good player. 7 years of toiling, giving away minutes, mistake after mistake, dropping games.....that's too long. Even if he's a decent 6th man 2 years prior, that's still 4-5 years to get to that point. HUGE investment. I just don't like high draft pick projects, they're typically high risk, moderate reward at best.

That being said (in general), I do think Bender has some skills, I just don't know if he'll put it together.

Next year is an important year. He has made drastic improvements in his 3 ball and defensive rotations, and also his passing can be very good. People complain about his defense some, but everyone else is worse.

His overall offense outside of shooting needs a lot of work though.

He's only played 91 games at an avg of 18 mpg, so he's still barely a rookie. He never got much real game time last year to understand what was important to work on in the offseason (and of course, had Watson to teach him)...so this off season is important for development.

Silly to write him off now though, but not unexpected that many people do. Happens all the time.

Next year is big. 3rd year in the league is usually a lot of what you'll see % wise. I think he has some promise, hopefully he can make significant strides next year.

[gaspar]

Do not take Revived's opinions as representing anything like a consensus. Dude lives on his own limb out here.

There are a number of Bender haters. Many just look at individual stats. 12 of our 15 best +/- units for the season include Bender. http://stats.nba.com/lineups/traditional/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612756&sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1

or, a more advanced one...in 7 out of 10 best 5 man lineups in net rating... http://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612756&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1

notsureifserious.jpg

Look at the sample size of all these lineups.

[bwgood77]

Do not take Revived's opinions as representing anything like a consensus. Dude lives on his own limb out here.

There are a number of Bender haters. Many just look at individual stats. 12 of our 15 best +/- units for the season include Bender. http://stats.nba.com/lineups/traditional/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612756&sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1

or, a more advanced one...in 7 out of 10 best 5 man lineups in net rating... http://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612756&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1

notsureifserious.jpg

Look at the sample size of all these lineups.

Yeah, I noticed that, but that's what the query came up with. I didn't put any date range limits or any other special criteria to spit out preferential data.

Most of the units that were together more minutes for more games appear in later pages because they were all net minus or net negative rating like on page 10:

D.Booker, M.Chriss, G.Monroe, T.Ulis, T.Warren PHX were in 7 games averaging 10 minutes and had a -5 avg.

Or T.Chandler, M.Chriss, J.Jackson, T.Ulis, T.Warren PHX 9 games averaging 8.4 mpg were a -6.6 on avg.

It's 10 pages and most units have been a net negative overall it appears.

Net Rtg is probably the better one to look at though overall.

[Revived]

Do not take Revived's opinions as representing anything like a consensus. Dude lives on his own limb out here.

There are a number of Bender haters. Many just look at individual stats. 12 of our 15 best +/- units for the season include Bender. http://stats.nba.com/lineups/traditional/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612756&sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1

or, a more advanced one...in 7 out of 10 best 5 man lineups in net rating... http://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612756&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1

I’m not a “Bender hater”. I’ve actually defended him plenty especially early on in the season when people were turning against him. I still like him but I’m a bit disappointed that he’s played so poorly since becoming starter. He’s actually one of the ones I like more than the rest of the remaining besides Booker/Warren because of his defensive versatility.

Just because I will take Sabonis for him doesn’t mean I hate Bender, it shows the respect and admiration I have for Sabonis who has played outs standing. Just like me willing to take Kevin Durant for TJ Warren wouldn’t mean I’m a Warren hater, it’s just a case of the player being better, more proven and worth trading for.

Cosmo would find himself alone (and maybe...with you?) as the only person who wouldn’t accept a trade of Bender for Sabonis. Of course, Indiana would never do it and their fans would laugh it of as well barring Sabonis regressing significantly within the next few weeks.

And I know you’re big on plus/minus and I do think it’s extremely useful but it doesn’t tell the whole story as you recently pointed out in a Giannis +/- that was posted in the Bucks game thread.

[bwgood77]

Do not take Revived's opinions as representing anything like a consensus. Dude lives on his own limb out here.

There are a number of Bender haters. Many just look at individual stats. 12 of our 15 best +/- units for the season include Bender. http://stats.nba.com/lineups/traditional/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612756&sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1

or, a more advanced one...in 7 out of 10 best 5 man lineups in net rating... http://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612756&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1

I’m not a “Bender hater”. I’ve actually defended him plenty especially early on in the season when people were turning against him. I still like him but I’m a bit disappointed that he’s played so poorly since becoming starter. He’s actually one of the ones I like more than the rest of the remaining besides Booker/Warren because of his defensive versatility.

Just because I will take Sabonis for him doesn’t mean I hate Bender, it shows the respect and admiration I have for Sabonis who has played outs standing. Just like me willing to take Kevin Durant for TJ Warren wouldn’t mean I’m a Warren hater, it’s just a case of the player being better, more proven and worth trading for.

Cosmo would find himself alone (and maybe...with you?) as the only person who wouldn’t accept a trade of Bender for Sabonis. Of course, Indiana would never do it and their fans would laugh it of as well barring Sabonis regressing significantly within the next few weeks.

And I know you’re big on plus/minus and I do think it’s extremely useful but it doesn’t tell the whole story as you recently pointed out in a Giannis +/- that was posted in the Bucks game thread.

I'm not that big on plus minus overall. I was just showing what nba.com said were the Suns best five man units. He doesn't put up great raw stats, but doesn't do many things that cost us. Although some people have gotten hot against him, he usually disrupts shots fairly well and rarely fouls guys shooting 3s like some people do, or fouls much any more in general, has few turnovers, plays good team D, keeps the ball moving and hits a good percentage of his 3 pt shots.

I'm disappointed in many aspects of his game and think he's way too timid, particularly on the offensive end.

I actually really like Sabonis. He is a better player right now in most aspects. But I really doubt cosmo is alone. Even on the Zwicker/Olson podcast the other day they were talking about a redraft of the 16 draft and both had Bender around 5th or 6th. Sabonis wasn't mentioned above them. I decided to pull up other redrafts after listening to that and Bender was always higher.

[NavLDO]

That's a major issue though. Let's say he only takes til 26 to reach an age where he can start on a good team. You'd have to put 7 years into a guy who's just going to be a fairly good player. 7 years of toiling, giving away minutes, mistake after mistake, dropping games.....that's too long. Even if he's a decent 6th man 2 years prior, that's still 4-5 years to get to that point. HUGE investment. I just don't like high draft pick projects, they're typically high risk, moderate reward at best.

That being said (in general), I do think Bender has some skills, I just don't know if he'll put it together.

Next year is an important year. He has made drastic improvements in his 3 ball and defensive rotations, and also his passing can be very good. People complain about his defense some, but everyone else is worse.

His overall offense outside of shooting needs a lot of work though.

He's only played 91 games at an avg of 18 mpg, so he's still barely a rookie. He never got much real game time last year to understand what was important to work on in the offseason (and of course, had Watson to teach him)...so this off season is important for development.

Silly to write him off now though, but not unexpected that many people do. Happens all the time.

Next year is big. 3rd year in the league is usually a lot of what you'll see % wise. I think he has some promise, hopefully he can make significant strides next year.

But you REALLY should be looking at next year as his 2nd year...not 3rd. As it is, he's but a couple hundred minutes total more than Kuzma or Markannen already have in 46 games, as opposed to Bender in 91 games, and by season's end, they, along with Ball and a a few others, will have surpassed him.

Look at Porzingis in his first year...and Booker:

http://bkref.com/tiny/8UofL

And then compare those minutes played to Chriss and Bender. You might say.."Hey, look, Chriss got a lot of minutes, too! Not really, when you see he only averaged about 21 MPG. Better than Bender, overall, for sure, but still not ideal.

This is why I've been so critical of how these two have been handled. Yeah, they are REALLY young, so maybe not killing them in the 1st year is wise, but now? Why are we holding on to both? By now, I think McD should be able to see what he wants to have seen, and make a decision, and get one of these guys off the roster, so we can concentrate on making the other, better.

If we don't want to go after Kemba, then fine, but there are at least 8-10 young PGs, or Combo Guards, we should be able to trade Chriss for, before the deadline.

Dinwiddie
LeVert
Russell
Grant
Tyus Jones
Brogdon
Fultz
McConnell
Napier
Delon Wright
Exum

And I'm sure I'm missing 4-5 interspersed throughout the league, but why not trade for one of these guys with Chriss?

[bwgood77]

Next year is an important year. He has made drastic improvements in his 3 ball and defensive rotations, and also his passing can be very good. People complain about his defense some, but everyone else is worse.

His overall offense outside of shooting needs a lot of work though.

He's only played 91 games at an avg of 18 mpg, so he's still barely a rookie. He never got much real game time last year to understand what was important to work on in the offseason (and of course, had Watson to teach him)...so this off season is important for development.

Silly to write him off now though, but not unexpected that many people do. Happens all the time.

Next year is big. 3rd year in the league is usually a lot of what you'll see % wise. I think he has some promise, hopefully he can make significant strides next year.

But you REALLY should be looking at next year as his 2nd year...not 3rd. As it is, he's but a couple hundred minutes total more than Kuzma or Markannen already have in 46 games, as opposed to Bender in 91 games, and by season's end, they, along with Ball and a a few others, will have surpassed him.

Look at Porzingis in his first year...and Booker:

http://bkref.com/tiny/8UofL

And then compare those minutes played to Chriss and Bender. You might say.."Hey, look, Chriss got a lot of minutes, too! Not really, when you see he only averaged about 21 MPG. Better than Bender, overall, for sure, but still not ideal.

This is why I've been so critical of how these two have been handled. Yeah, they are REALLY young, so maybe not killing them in the 1st year is wise, but now? Why are we holding on to both? By now, I think McD should be able to see what he wants to have seen, and make a decision, and get one of these guys off the roster, so we can concentrate on making the other, better.

If we don't want to go after Kemba, then fine, but there are at least 8-10 young PGs, or Combo Guards, we should be able to trade Chriss for, before the deadline.

Dinwiddie
LeVert
Russell
Grant
Tyus Jones
Brogdon
Fultz
McConnell
Napier
Delon Wright
Exum

And I'm sure I'm missing 4-5 interspersed throughout the league, but why not trade for one of these guys with Chriss?

Wright and Grant are probably the only possibilities...of guys on the block...or Exum but he's hurt and will be a RFA I think...#s were never good but I'd probably roll the dice based on cost. LeVert isn't really a PG..heck, you can play him as a PF in fantasy. I love LeVert though. Brooklyn has SO many wings. Joe Harris might go on the block at some point. I don't think they will trade Dinwiddie. I think they will eventually let Lin go and stick with a Dinwiddie/Russell backcourt, with Crabbe/Levert at the 3 (or 2 when one of the other guards sit). They usually play RHJ at PF. Their GM is very good though.....for not having picks he's done a great job of adding guys, even if it cost him or they are overpaid..a bunch of good guards and wings.

I've always said I've liked Jones....I know Minnesota people...most like Jones better than Teague. Of course Brogdon I like, but unlikely going anywhere....if anywhere maybe a DeAndre Jordan trade, but unlikely.

McConnell maybe if Fultz comes back and they draft a guard, but he is a solid cheap backup under contract so not sure why they'd trade him unless we gave them something they couldn't pass up.

Best bets for guys you could trade or sign in FA who I think might pan out as decent guards are Napier or Wright, but ultimately probably not who you want as your long term starter if you hope to get to the playoffs and win a round.