Tom Thibodeau, coach of death.

[Young_Star11]

Correlation and causality, everyone.

[druggas]

How does that relate to the topic specifically? That was pre-3-point line. Completely different in terms of defensive input required and offensive half-court systems.

Your argument that the "modern" NBA is so tough on the players because of pace and defensive pressure, is shot down by an old team that upped their pace without injuries. Now tell me that they were genetic freaks.

You haven't addressed that there was no 3 back then. how do you overlook that? They upped their pace but they could pack the paint in half court defense settings each time. Totally different game offensively and defensively. Apples to oranges.

To use an example from 45 years ago with completely different rules to illustrate your point is iffy.

No three back then means that there were more bodies in less area. How does shooting 3's make them more injury prone? Answer: It doesn't. In fact by spacing the floor even more than previous years, there should be less injuries due to being less congested traffic on the floor.

[IggyStardust]

Hes a monster-- ruined countless careers: Deng, Noah, I could go on..

[Joker]

Your argument that the "modern" NBA is so tough on the players because of pace and defensive pressure, is shot down by an old team that upped their pace without injuries. Now tell me that they were genetic freaks.

You haven't addressed that there was no 3 back then. how do you overlook that? They upped their pace but they could pack the paint in half court defense settings each time. Totally different game offensively and defensively. Apples to oranges.

To use an example from 45 years ago with completely different rules to illustrate your point is iffy.

No three back then means that there were more bodies in less area. How does shooting 3's make them more injury prone? Answer: It doesn't. In fact by spacing the floor even more than previous years, there should be less injuries due to being less congested traffic on the floor.

Teams defensively now have to switch, scramble around screens, and chase players around to limit 3 point makes. It doesn't make them more injury prone per se but it means it's gruelling and you can't play 45 minutes defensively in that frantic defensive mode.

Seriously, just go watch the defensive movement of one of those Lakers games from '72, then watch the defensive movement of a modern NBA team. Just a ton of mid-range one-on-one action with the other 4 defenders relatively stationary in help position.

[ChuckChilly]

Main thing I cant stand about this guy is hearing him barrel out plays/ positioning to his players every 3 seconds whether on offense or defense like he's a drill sergeant. Who the hell would enjoy playing with a coach like that?

[Duke4life831]

I like to bust on Thibs for his minutes just like everyone else, but I do think we have taken the minutes a game thing a little too far. Pace wise we are currently behind the 60s, 70s, 80s and early 90s. The pace for the past few years is about equal to the pace in the mid 90s. Giannis is leading the league in minutes a game with 37.4, that wouldve been good enough for 15th highest in 1993 and 1994. Even if you want to say the game is harder now to play because of it being so perimeter oriented and how much switching defenses do. Travel conditions are much better, sports medicine is much better, training facilities are much better, nutrition is much better and the schedule is much much more in favor of the players.

So I dont think that Jimmy Butler at the age of 28 is really being all that harmed because hes playing 37 minutes a game, or Wiggins at 22 playing 36 minutes a game. It just seems like now if someone averages over 35 minutes a game, it is considered heavy minutes and that player is getting over played.

[Harry Garris]

If Thibs is such a nightmare, how come Butler and Gibson were more than willing to suit up for him again?

You are a prime example of making up an argument lol. I dont care about Butler and Gibson and what loyalty they have.

Thibs has examples of destruction to good players. Players that were all stars and even mvp.

I dont need any more proof.

When there are samples that go against your thesis, like Butler and Gibson do, then you need to revisit the data. That's all I'm sayin.

[Dominator83]

I like to bust on Thibs for his minutes just like everyone else, but I do think we have taken the minutes a game thing a little too far. Pace wise we are currently behind the 60s, 70s, 80s and early 90s. The pace for the past few years is about equal to the pace in the mid 90s. Giannis is leading the league in minutes a game with 37.4, that wouldve been good enough for 15th highest in 1993 and 1994. Even if you want to say the game is harder now to play because of it being so perimeter oriented and how much switching defenses do. Travel conditions are much better, sports medicine is much better, training facilities are much better, nutrition is much better and the schedule is much much more in favor of the players.

So I dont think that Jimmy Butler at the age of 28 is really being all that harmed because hes playing 37 minutes a game, or Wiggins at 22 playing 36 minutes a game. It just seems like now if someone averages over 35 minutes a game, it is considered heavy minutes and that player is getting over played.

It's very arbitrary too. What if the game was 40 minutes instead of 48? People here would be screaming about about a coach playing someone 33 minutes

[Duke4life831]

I like to bust on Thibs for his minutes just like everyone else, but I do think we have taken the minutes a game thing a little too far. Pace wise we are currently behind the 60s, 70s, 80s and early 90s. The pace for the past few years is about equal to the pace in the mid 90s. Giannis is leading the league in minutes a game with 37.4, that wouldve been good enough for 15th highest in 1993 and 1994. Even if you want to say the game is harder now to play because of it being so perimeter oriented and how much switching defenses do. Travel conditions are much better, sports medicine is much better, training facilities are much better, nutrition is much better and the schedule is much much more in favor of the players.

So I dont think that Jimmy Butler at the age of 28 is really being all that harmed because hes playing 37 minutes a game, or Wiggins at 22 playing 36 minutes a game. It just seems like now if someone averages over 35 minutes a game, it is considered heavy minutes and that player is getting over played.

It's very arbitrary too. What if the game was 40 minutes instead of 48? People here would be screaming about about a coach playing someone 33 minutes

Agreed. As a massive college basketball fan, I hate coach K's short rotation and him playing the starters "heavy minutes" (32-34 out of the 40 minutes). But my grudge there isnt I think hes running the players down, its him not using his talented bench players enough which leads to transfers.

So I could totally get someone saying Thibs needs to lower his starters minutes because you think Tyus Jones should be getting more than his 15 minutes a game since Teague returned or if you thought some other talent was just wasting away on the bench and not getting enough minutes. I can buy that argument. I just cant buy the wearing down players argument when we have as much data as we do about players in the past playing just as many possessions if not more and while playing more minutes and in much worse conditions than players have now.

[Dominator83]

I like to bust on Thibs for his minutes just like everyone else, but I do think we have taken the minutes a game thing a little too far. Pace wise we are currently behind the 60s, 70s, 80s and early 90s. The pace for the past few years is about equal to the pace in the mid 90s. Giannis is leading the league in minutes a game with 37.4, that wouldve been good enough for 15th highest in 1993 and 1994. Even if you want to say the game is harder now to play because of it being so perimeter oriented and how much switching defenses do. Travel conditions are much better, sports medicine is much better, training facilities are much better, nutrition is much better and the schedule is much much more in favor of the players.

So I dont think that Jimmy Butler at the age of 28 is really being all that harmed because hes playing 37 minutes a game, or Wiggins at 22 playing 36 minutes a game. It just seems like now if someone averages over 35 minutes a game, it is considered heavy minutes and that player is getting over played.

It's very arbitrary too. What if the game was 40 minutes instead of 48? People here would be screaming about about a coach playing someone 33 minutes

Agreed. As a massive college basketball fan, I hate coach K's short rotation and him playing the starters heavy minutes (32-34 out of the 40 minutes). But my grudge there isnt I think hes running the players down, its him not using his talented bench players enough which leads to transfers.

So I could totally get someone saying Thibs needs to lower his starters minutes because you think Tyus Jones should be getting more than his 15 minutes a game since Teague returned or if you thought some other talent was just wasting away on the bench and not getting enough minutes. I can buy that argument. I just cant buy the wearing down players argument when we have as much data as we do about players in the past playing just as many possessions if not more and while playing more minutes and in much worse conditions than players have now.

Yea Thibs can definitely use some improvements there. Hell, Jones imo is a better fit with Butler/Wiggins/KAT than Teague. Teague should be running the 2nd unit.

The funny thing is Thibs 1st year with the Bulls, only starter he would leave in too long isDeng. He used the 2nd unit plenty. Our 2nd unit was a young Asik, Taj, Korver, Ronnie Brewer, and CJ Watson. Those guys consistently maintained and even added to leads. I don't know why he went away from trusting more guys

[Eoghan]

For me, it's not about how much he plays his players, it's about his choices of who plays and when. For example, the other night against the Raptors I think, Jeff Teague went something like 1-9 in the first half and ended up going 2-11 the whole game and he was the one playing down the stretch when the game was close even though Tyus was having a huge impact on the game and just made some crucial plays. It seems like Thibs always takes players out when they get hot and never play deserving players enough. Tyus should be starting. Anyone who watches Timberwolves games should agree with me. But Thibs continues to load Teague with minutes even though he doesn't have as much of a positive impact on the game.

His best buddy Steve Clifford does this crap too. I think it's some Van Gundy ball tenant. The Hornets are perpetually injured as well (medical staff has to be bottom 5 with how often they rush players back).

[XxIronChainzxX]

In his mid thirties, MJ averaged 38 mins a night. Not a single missed game 3 years in a row. And they were roughly 100 game seasons when playoffs added in. I don't recall him ever failing in the playoffs because he ran out of gas

Another crazy one is Wilt Chamberlain playing 40+ minutes a game in his final season at 36 or 37 years old (can't remember).

Part of it, IMO, is that Wilt was a lot more athletic than his peers. So I think he could coast a lot more, vs. having to go hard every position.

[druggas]

In his mid thirties, MJ averaged 38 mins a night. Not a single missed game 3 years in a row. And they were roughly 100 game seasons when playoffs added in. I don't recall him ever failing in the playoffs because he ran out of gas

Another crazy one is Wilt Chamberlain playing 40+ minutes a game in his final season at 36 or 37 years old (can't remember).

Part of it, IMO, is that Wilt was a lot more athletic than his peers. So I think he could coast a lot more, vs. having to go hard every position.

He didn't have the luxury jets to travel in, he played back to back to back games. There wasn't any growth hormones or even nutritionists back then, and he played against centers that would dominate today. And he played both ends of the court!

[Ugly0598]

Overreaction thread. Yes Thibs likes to run his guys silly more so than any other coach of the league, but it's not like these guys are over 40 MPG.

[Kevin Johnson]

he was playing his starters 40 minutes when they were out of playoffs and with some homegrown talent needing a chance to show themselves. He still ran these guys out for like 38-43 minutes a game.

Kobe Bryant career 36 MPG
Karl Malone career 37 MPG
Kareem Addul Jabbar career 37 MPG
Michael Jordan career 38 MPG
Lebron James career 38 MPG
Wilt Chamberlain career 45 MPG

You're mistaking correlation with causation. The NBA until Pops starting resting his players and sitting out healthy players has always played good players heavy minutes.

There is no evidence that 32 mpg instead of 38 mpg or 75 games instead of 82 will keep a player from getting injured. Injuries just randomly happen. Karl Malone looked like a genetic freak athlete who would never get hurt playing 38-40 mpg into his late 30s until a freak injury when he went to the Lakers. Kobe looked like he'd be an elite scorer who was easily going to break Kareem's scoring record until a freak injury. Thibs was just unfortunate to have a bunch of injuries to players on his team. He's not the cause of them.

Let's use the notoriously best-conditioned and biggest genetic freaks of the last 50 years of the NBA for the benchmark, the majority of whom played in a different style of play era.

Charles Barkley career 37 MPG

Shaquille O'Neal -- 1st 12 years in the league ~37 MPG - career 35 MPG

Are you going to include these guys the "notoriously best-conditioned" too?

5 more minutes per game and 5-8 more games does not suddenly cause injury. There has been no evidence to show that it does.

[_AIJ_]

This thread is dumb


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[a8bil]

OP is wild but for Noah, Deng, AND Rose to be washed up and barely worth minutes at 32 or younger is crazy. We're in an era where careers are being extended.

Wow, didn't realize Loul is only 32! Noah and D-Rose had injuries that derailed their trajectories, but isn't Loul healthy?

some of these players from abroad...who knows exactly how old they are. For all we know, Deng is 35.

[LAKESHOW]

This was told by many here when he was hired. Dudes schemes grinds down the players. It's all defense all the time. Great short term, rubs teams the wrong way ling term. That Celtics team should've won more than one title. The bulls were rubbed to the nub. Minny will be the same way. He doesn't know offense.

[life_saver]

This was told by many here when he was hired. Dudes schemes grinds down the players. It's all defense all the time. Great short term, rubs teams the wrong way ling term. That Celtics team should've won more than one title. The bulls were rubbed to the nub. Minny will be the same way. He doesn't know offense.

bro..it looks like you don't even follow Minny...we aren't a good defense team but offensively we are one of the top teams in the league. Our offense might not be attractive but it's very efficient

[Splashin]

Worse than his minute management are his rotations in the playoffs. If something isn't working he NEVER adjusts. Have fun with that this spring wolves fans.