Political Roundtable Part XVII

[stilldropin20]

and.here.we.go.

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"in 3 months we will be going into syria"

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[cammac]

Contrary to "see no evil" and "hear no evil" the Trumpian shills on this forum about the blessings of the Trump tax cuts giving to the employees.

Americans for Tax Reform. The right-leaning ATR has been maintaining a database of how Fortune 500 companies have implemented or altered fiscal policies since passage of the GOP tax cuts at the end of 2017.

"Not only are few big corporations sharing any portion of their tax-cut bounty," the group stated, "but the amounts going to workers pale when compared to how much the companies are getting in tax cuts and to how much they’re returning to shareholders through stock buybacks and dividends (where those figures are available). [...]

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/1/30/1737356/-Open-thread-for-night-owls-Only-9-of-top-500-companies-have-shared-tax-cut-windfall-with-workers

[cammac]

Harley Closes KC Plant
This is Trumpian Excess from earlier this year.

So it’s great to have Harley-Davidson. What a great, great group of people and what a fantastic job you do. And thank you for all of the votes you gave me in Wisconsin. Some people thought that was an upset; I thought we were going to win it. From the beginning, we thought we were going to win it.

Harley-Davidson is a true American icon, one of the greats. Your motorcycles have carried American servicemembers in the war—in the wars. They take care of our police officers. And I see it so often—whenever I go—whenever there’s a motorcycle group, oftentimes it’s a Harley. And the sound of that Harley is a little different, I have to tell you. It’s really good.

So thank you, Harley-Davidson, for building things in America. And I think you’re going to even expand—I know your business is now doing very well and there’s a lot of spirit right now in the country that you weren’t having so much in the last number of months that you have right now. You see what’s happening.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/1/30/1737229/-Citing-Trump-tax-cut-charge-and-slumping-sales-Harley-Davidson-to-close-Kansas-City-plant

[cammac]

Separation of Church & State is no longer a reality to some Republicans

The First Baptist deacon Berry proudly admits that his bill’s purpose is redefining marriage in favor of “the church.” He said the only way a person in Missouri can be legally married under his legislation is “to go through a religious ceremony in a church.” Any couple refusing to take that route can get a civil document from the government, but they will not be legally married in Missouri.

Despite the Supreme Court decision in Obergefell v. Hodges nearly three years ago, religious Republicans are still crusading to deny same-sex couples the legal right to be married. In a new attack on same-sex marriage, a really religious Republican in the Missouri state legislature, some theocrat named T.J. Berry, introduced House Bill 1424 to restrict marriage in the “show me state” to “people of faith.” It is noteworthy to mention that Berry is as real a religious Republican as any evangelical fanatic and an ordained deacon of the First Baptist Church In Kearney, Missouri.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/1/30/1737280/-Republican-Bill-Bans-Non-Church-Marriages

[cammac]

Some criticized Claire McCasell yesterday on not being liberal enough and that may be true but she is the type of Democrat that can get elected in Missouri.

Claire McCaskill
✔
@clairecmc
Congress voted 517-5 to impose sanctions on Russia. The President decides to ignore that law. Folks that is a constitutional crisis. There should be outrage in every corner of this country.

7:16 AM - Jan 30, 2018
4,448 4,448 Replies 65,591 65,591 Retweets 128,326 128,326 likes

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/1/30/1737223/-McCaskill-on-Trump-s-refusal-to-follow-the-law-and-impose-Russia-sanctions-A-constitutional-crisis

[closg00]

Obama has repeatedly pressed for more federal support for infrastructure projects but largely struck out in the final months of the last Congress. He did not get congressional support for pumping $302 billion of federal funds into highway and mass transit projects.

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/01/06/Governors-Join-Obama-Infrastructure-Spending-Plea

Dump got lots of applause for proposing infrastructure spending, Republican's made sure the country would never get it under Obama

[dckingsfan]

The immigration debate in the US always makes me laugh because even smart people fall for the same nativist garbage that the alt right and anti immigrant groups put out there. Credible studies show that the US needs to increase immigration if they want to increase economic growth, not decrease it! So Trump is proposing the opposite policies that would put America first.

For the people that claim the system is broken and that anyone can get into the US explain to me how immigrants are more educated, have lower unemployment rates than American born counter parts. For a broken and **** system they somehow are able to get in more productive workers than American citizens. Family reunification has merits considering that you’d want people to come to the country that have a support system to help them adjust. The wait time for this process can take decades which blows up the talking point that immigrants are just flowing into the country. There are people who I know personally that did advanced degrees in the US but couldn’t get H1B sponsorship. The US system is problematic for reasons that have nothing to do with the country of origin immigrants or their skills.

If anyone thinks that Trump and the white nationalists in his whitehouse will put forward any policy that honestly addresses the immigration problem then you’re the mark.

You are right - we need more immigration and the current administration is way off and their views are skewed as you point out.

But, the current system is broken. We need a larger share of our immigrants to be female, educated and in the 25 to 40 year old range. The broken parts of are system is that we are largely familial and birthright driven (which isn't fair to either those that want to come here or to our country and citizens).

If we instead had a weighting system to increase the number of educated workers (I liked the late Steve Jobs' idea - someone gets a degree here - they get citizenship if they so choose) - and we need a lot of them. a

We also need more women them men - guessing that won't sit well with you?

We also need individuals in the 40&U range.

This isn't complicated - it is clear that the Rs have completely missed the mark. Show me the proposals from the Ds that nails this? It seems to me that they don't want to budge either.

[nate33]

Avowed liberal Paul Krugman on the economics of immigration:

First, the benefits of immigration to the population already here are small. The reason is that immigrant workers are, at least roughly speaking, paid their “marginal product”: an immigrant worker is paid roughly the value of the additional goods and services he or she enables the U.S. economy to produce. That means that there isn’t anything left over to increase the income of the people already here.

You might ask why, in that case, there are any gains from immigration. The answer is that when a country receives a lot of immigrants, the wage paid to immigrants reflects the marginal product of the last immigrant, which is less than that of earlier immigrants. So there is some gain. But as Mr. Hanson explains in his paper, reasonable calculations suggest that we’re talking about very small numbers, perhaps as little as 0.1 percent of GDP.

There is, by the way, a possible out from this argument in the case of high-skill immigrants. You could argue that, say, South Asian engineers who move to Silicon Valley add to the dynamism of the region, generating benefits much larger than their wages. (Economists know that I’m talking about “positive externalities.”) But that’s not an argument you can easily make about Mexican migrants who haven’t completed high school.

My second negative point is that immigration reduces the wages of domestic workers who compete with immigrants. That’s just supply and demand: we’re talking about large increases in the number of low-skill workers relative to other inputs into production, so it’s inevitable that this means a fall in wages. Mr. Borjas and Mr. Katz have to go through a lot of number-crunching to turn that general proposition into specific estimates of the wage impact, but the general point seems impossible to deny.

Finally, the fiscal burden of low-wage immigrants is also pretty clear. Mr. Hanson uses some estimates from the National Research Council to get a specific number, around 0.25 percent of G.D.P. Again, I think that you’d be hard pressed to find any set of assumptions under which Mexican immigrants are a net fiscal plus, but equally hard pressed to make the burden more than a fraction of a percent of G.D.P.

So there's a very small GDP gain which is outweighed by a bigger fiscal burden, all while reducing wages. Yes. Low wage immigration seems wonderful!

[I_Like_Dirt]

If we instead had a weighting system to increase the number of educated workers (I liked the late Steve Jobs' idea - someone gets a degree here - they get citizenship if they so choose) - and we need a lot of them. a

We also need more women them men - guessing that won't sit well with you?

We also need individuals in the 40&U range.

This isn't complicated - it is clear that the Rs have completely missed the mark. Show me the proposals from the Ds that nails this? It seems to me that they don't want to budge either.

I didn't love Jobs' idea, but more skilled workers are definitely important. I actually think that issue is one that goes beyond immigration, though. Technology is starting to change faster that workers can be effectively trained to keep up with it and there desperately needs to be creative answers there or the power imbalance where wealth is concerned is going to be profound and potentially impossible to ever change back.

More women than men... eh... there needs to be more women than currently. I tend to think a more balanced approach overall is important. I don't think more women than men is entirely necessary, but a relatively equal split at the very least is something that needs to be looked into, and that might involve focusing more on women in some varying ways. There are some pretty serious social consequences to leaving other nations with more men than women, and that tends to bleed into social policy around the world which hurts America's interests overall. Definitely, your main point I agree with entirely, but I see a bit of room for nuance.

Young? Definitely Though that one is way more of a hot button issue as young men simply aren't trusted for the most part. I feel this is where there is room for family driven integration, but it does need to be rehashed somehow. But taking unattached young men just because they are in their 20s isn't necessarily as effective as taking an older, more educated man with a family and children. Tying families and education together seems like a pretty logical step, overall, because it's a great way to help both the labor force and demographics at the same time. How to do it is another matter.

As for the Ds, I'm actually of the mind that they're being played right now to the nth degree. The Republicans are clearly more effective at what they do and also much more deliberate in what they're doing. They've very clearly caged the discussion to put the Ds in a position where it's harder for them to get some sort of consensus on a legitimate immigration rehash. This isn't to exonerate the Democrats, because they're very disconnected overall, but any answer basically has to start with Republicans because unless they back off on their polarizing of the issue, nothing is ever going to get resolved since it means too much to too many Democrats who have friends or family in the game. And the Republicans have very obviously realized that tool will allow them to basically do whatever they want and not pay the price for it because nobody is going to vote Democrat nearly as much as they should when the issues become irrational like that because emotion is involved.

I absolutely don't think social costs are going to be the issue within 50 years, though. I mean, they will be, because that's what people understand, but the underlying issue is very much going to be wealth distribution because whoever owns automation isn't going to be interested in sharing the wealth. The time to lay the groundwork on this one is now.

Hilariously, I actually do have to give Trump credit for his suggestion to nationalize the wireless network. It's basically an admission that China, by essentially having it nationalized themselves, is at a competitive advantage and is rolling out national 5G wireless and leaving the USA in the dust. Of course, the industry pushed back using Venezuela as a counterpoint rather than China, because it suits them better, but it was funny that the idea was actually floated in the first place. It's logical. The market is doing nothing and is very much making behind the scenes agreements on monopolies and stifling innovation. Not shocked to see Trump cave to the Party Powers that be on that one. If there was ever an issue he should have stuck to his guns on it was that one.

[gtn130]

So there's a very small GDP gain which is outweighed by a bigger fiscal burden, all while reducing wages. Yes. Low wage immigration seems wonderful!

Do you think the argument for immigration is limited strictly to economic benefit or something?

[FAH1223]

Obama has repeatedly pressed for more federal support for infrastructure projects but largely struck out in the final months of the last Congress. He did not get congressional support for pumping $302 billion of federal funds into highway and mass transit projects.

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/01/06/Governors-Join-Obama-Infrastructure-Spending-Plea

Dump got lots of applause for proposing infrastructure spending, Republican's made sure the country would never get it under Obama

This is why.. if the Dems ever get majorities they had in 2009-2010 ever again, you go all in. The stimulus should have been bigger.

Acquiescing to those conservative Dems was stupid

[gtn130]

Doesn't Nate live in the midwest? I imagine he sees like one immigrant a year and is so deeply afraid every time that he has to lock his car doors / roll up the windows

[nate33]

So there's a very small GDP gain which is outweighed by a bigger fiscal burden, all while reducing wages. Yes. Low wage immigration seems wonderful!

Do you think the argument for immigration is limited strictly to economic benefit or something?

Where were you when Pointgod made this post:

The immigration debate in the US always makes me laugh because even smart people fall for the same nativist garbage that the alt right and anti immigrant groups put out there. Credible studies show that the US needs to increase immigration if they want to increase economic growth, not decrease it! So Trump is proposing the opposite policies that would put America first.

[nate33]

Doesn't Nate live in the midwest? I imagine he sees like one immigrant a year and is so deeply afraid every time that he has to lock his car doors / roll up the windows

You know I have a point so you change tactics.

You are incapable of discussing an issue without personal attacks. You are no longer worth engaging.

[gtn130]

So there's a very small GDP gain which is outweighed by a bigger fiscal burden, all while reducing wages. Yes. Low wage immigration seems wonderful!

Do you think the argument for immigration is limited strictly to economic benefit or something?

Where were you when Pointgod made this post:

The immigration debate in the US always makes me laugh because even smart people fall for the same nativist garbage that the alt right and anti immigrant groups put out there. Credible studies show that the US needs to increase immigration if they want to increase economic growth, not decrease it! So Trump is proposing the opposite policies that would put America first.

I mean, I agree with his argument, but I don't care to get into the weeds with you on this stuff because it will inevitably devolve into you citing Info Wars or something.

[nate33]

Do you think the argument for immigration is limited strictly to economic benefit or something?

Where were you when Pointgod made this post:

The immigration debate in the US always makes me laugh because even smart people fall for the same nativist garbage that the alt right and anti immigrant groups put out there. Credible studies show that the US needs to increase immigration if they want to increase economic growth, not decrease it! So Trump is proposing the opposite policies that would put America first.

I mean, I agree with his argument, but I don't care to get into the weed with you on this stuff because it will inevitably devolve into you citing Info Wars or something.

Good. Because you never contribute anything meaningful to a conversation anyhow.

[gtn130]

Doesn't Nate live in the midwest? I imagine he sees like one immigrant a year and is so deeply afraid every time that he has to lock his car doors / roll up the windows

You know I have a point so you change tactics.

You are incapable of discussing an issue without personal attacks. You are no longer worth engaging.

Baby Boomers are the ultimate snowflakes, and there are so many layers of hypocrisy here.

Nate, remember when you called me a moron or idiot or whatever? I bravely persevered through that awful moment in my own personal history, and I'm here today standing tall and proud with my head held high! You can do it, man!