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Political Roundtable Part XVIII

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#141 » by Jamaaliver » Mon Feb 5, 2018 1:54 pm

This seems the fairest, most realistic assessment of this memo and it's aftermath.

Look, Russia tried to interfere with our election in 2016 with or without a dossier. So you need an investigation into Russia.

You need an investigation into Trump Tower and the Cambridge Analytica email, separate and apart from the dossier. So those are not connected issues to me. They may be for other Republicans, but they're not for me.

I say investigate everything Russia did, but admit that this was a really sloppy process that you engaged in to surveil a U.S. citizen.

- Rep. Trey Gowdy, Republican of South Carolina, on CBS' "Face the Nation" Sunday playing his role as one of the few adults in the RussiaGate vs. MemoGate room
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#142 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Feb 5, 2018 1:59 pm

From the MLK Jr. speech used by Dodge Ram yesterday:

"The other day I was saying, I always try to do a little converting when I'm in jail. And when we were in jail in Birmingham the other day, the white wardens and all enjoyed coming around the cell to talk about the race problem. And they were showing us where we were so wrong demonstrating. And they were showing us where segregation was so right. And they were showing us where intermarriage was so wrong. So I would get to preaching, and we would get to talking—calmly, because they wanted to talk about it. And then we got down one day to the point—that was the second or third day—to talk about where they lived, and how much they were earning. And when those brothers told me what they were earning, I said, "Now, you know what? You ought to be marching with us. [laughter] You're just as poor as Negroes." And I said, "You are put in the position of supporting your oppressor, because through prejudice and blindness, you fail to see that the same forces that oppress Negroes in American society oppress poor white people. (Yes) And all you are living on is the satisfaction of your skin being white, and the drum major instinct of thinking that you are somebody big because you are white. And you're so poor you can't send your children to school. You ought to be out here marching with every one of us every time we have a march."

Now that's a fact. That the poor white has been put into this position, where through blindness and prejudice, (Make it plain) he is forced to support his oppressors. And the only thing he has going for him is the false feeling that he’s superior because his skin is white—and can't hardly eat and make his ends meet week in and week out. (Amen)

And not only does this thing go into the racial struggle, it goes into the struggle between nations. And I would submit to you this morning that what is wrong in the world today is that the nations of the world are engaged in a bitter, colossal contest for supremacy. And if something doesn't happen to stop this trend, I'm sorely afraid that we won't be here to talk about Jesus Christ and about God and about brotherhood too many more years. (Yeah) If somebody doesn't bring an end to this suicidal thrust that we see in the world today, none of us are going to be around, because somebody's going to make the mistake through our senseless blunderings of dropping a nuclear bomb somewhere. And then another one is going to drop. And don't let anybody fool you, this can happen within a matter of seconds. (Amen) They have twenty-megaton bombs in Russia right now that can destroy a city as big as New York in three seconds, with everybody wiped away, and every building. And we can do the same thing to Russia and China.

But this is why we are drifting. And we are drifting there because nations are caught up with the drum major instinct. "I must be first." "I must be supreme." "Our nation must rule the world." (Preach it) And I am sad to say that the nation in which we live is the supreme culprit. And I'm going to continue to say it to America, because I love this country too much to see the drift that it has taken.

God didn't call America to do what she's doing in the world now. (Preach it, preach it) God didn't call America to engage in a senseless, unjust war as the war in Vietnam. And we are criminals in that war. We’ve committed more war crimes almost than any nation in the world, and I'm going to continue to say it. And we won't stop it because of our pride and our arrogance as a nation.

But God has a way of even putting nations in their place. (Amen) The God that I worship has a way of saying, "Don't play with me." (Yes) He has a way of saying, as the God of the Old Testament used to say to the Hebrews, "Don’t play with me, Israel. Don't play with me, Babylon. (Yes) Be still and know that I'm God. And if you don't stop your reckless course, I'll rise up and break the backbone of your power." (Yes) And that can happen to America. (Yes) Every now and then I go back and read Gibbons' Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. And when I come and look at America, I say to myself, the parallels are frightening. And we have perverted the drum major instinct.

But let me rush on to my conclusion, because I want you to see what Jesus was really saying. What was the answer that Jesus gave these men? It's very interesting. One would have thought that Jesus would have condemned them. One would have thought that Jesus would have said, "You are out of your place. You are selfish. Why would you raise such a question?"

But that isn't what Jesus did; he did something altogether different. He said in substance, "Oh, I see, you want to be first. You want to be great. You want to be important. You want to be significant. Well, you ought to be. If you're going to be my disciple, you must be." But he reordered priorities. And he said, "Yes, don't give up this instinct. It's a good instinct if you use it right. (Yes) It's a good instinct if you don't distort it and pervert it. Don't give it up. Keep feeling the need for being important. Keep feeling the need for being first. But I want you to be first in love. (Amen) I want you to be first in moral excellence. I want you to be first in generosity. That is what I want you to do."

And he transformed the situation by giving a new definition of greatness. And you know how he said it? He said, "Now brethren, I can't give you greatness. And really, I can't make you first." This is what Jesus said to James and John. "You must earn it. True greatness comes not by favoritism, but by fitness. And the right hand and the left are not mine to give, they belong to those who are prepared." (Amen)

And so Jesus gave us a new norm of greatness. If you want to be important—wonderful. If you want to be recognized—wonderful. If you want to be great—wonderful. But recognize that he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. (Amen) That's a new definition of greatness.

And this morning, the thing that I like about it: by giving that definition of greatness, it means that everybody can be great, (Everybody) because everybody can serve. (Amen) You don't have to have a college degree to serve. (All right) You don't have to make your subject and your verb agree to serve. You don't have to know about Plato and Aristotle to serve. You don't have to know Einstein's theory of relativity to serve. You don't have to know the second theory of thermodynamics in physics to serve. (Amen) You only need a heart full of grace, (Yes, sir, Amen) a soul generated by love."

http://kingencyclopedia.stanford.edu/encyclopedia/documentsentry/doc_the_drum_major_instinct/index.html
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#143 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Feb 5, 2018 2:21 pm

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#144 » by cammac » Mon Feb 5, 2018 2:28 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:From the MLK Jr. speech used by Dodge Ram yesterday:

"The other day I was saying, I always try to do a little converting when I'm in jail. And when we were in jail in Birmingham the other day, the white wardens and all enjoyed coming around the cell to talk about the race problem. And they were showing us where we were so wrong demonstrating. And they were showing us where segregation was so right. And they were showing us where intermarriage was so wrong. So I would get to preaching, and we would get to talking—calmly, because they wanted to talk about it. And then we got down one day to the point—that was the second or third day—to talk about where they lived, and how much they were earning. And when those brothers told me what they were earning, I said, "Now, you know what? You ought to be marching with us. [laughter] You're just as poor as Negroes." And I said, "You are put in the position of supporting your oppressor, because through prejudice and blindness, you fail to see that the same forces that oppress Negroes in American society oppress poor white people. (Yes) And all you are living on is the satisfaction of your skin being white, and the drum major instinct of thinking that you are somebody big because you are white. And you're so poor you can't send your children to school. You ought to be out here marching with every one of us every time we have a march."

Now that's a fact. That the poor white has been put into this position, where through blindness and prejudice, (Make it plain) he is forced to support his oppressors. And the only thing he has going for him is the false feeling that he’s superior because his skin is white—and can't hardly eat and make his ends meet week in and week out. (Amen)

And not only does this thing go into the racial struggle, it goes into the struggle between nations. And I would submit to you this morning that what is wrong in the world today is that the nations of the world are engaged in a bitter, colossal contest for supremacy. And if something doesn't happen to stop this trend, I'm sorely afraid that we won't be here to talk about Jesus Christ and about God and about brotherhood too many more years. (Yeah) If somebody doesn't bring an end to this suicidal thrust that we see in the world today, none of us are going to be around, because somebody's going to make the mistake through our senseless blunderings of dropping a nuclear bomb somewhere. And then another one is going to drop. And don't let anybody fool you, this can happen within a matter of seconds. (Amen) They have twenty-megaton bombs in Russia right now that can destroy a city as big as New York in three seconds, with everybody wiped away, and every building. And we can do the same thing to Russia and China.

But this is why we are drifting. And we are drifting there because nations are caught up with the drum major instinct. "I must be first." "I must be supreme." "Our nation must rule the world." (Preach it) And I am sad to say that the nation in which we live is the supreme culprit. And I'm going to continue to say it to America, because I love this country too much to see the drift that it has taken.

God didn't call America to do what she's doing in the world now. (Preach it, preach it) God didn't call America to engage in a senseless, unjust war as the war in Vietnam. And we are criminals in that war. We’ve committed more war crimes almost than any nation in the world, and I'm going to continue to say it. And we won't stop it because of our pride and our arrogance as a nation.

But God has a way of even putting nations in their place. (Amen) The God that I worship has a way of saying, "Don't play with me." (Yes) He has a way of saying, as the God of the Old Testament used to say to the Hebrews, "Don’t play with me, Israel. Don't play with me, Babylon. (Yes) Be still and know that I'm God. And if you don't stop your reckless course, I'll rise up and break the backbone of your power." (Yes) And that can happen to America. (Yes) Every now and then I go back and read Gibbons' Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. And when I come and look at America, I say to myself, the parallels are frightening. And we have perverted the drum major instinct.

But let me rush on to my conclusion, because I want you to see what Jesus was really saying. What was the answer that Jesus gave these men? It's very interesting. One would have thought that Jesus would have condemned them. One would have thought that Jesus would have said, "You are out of your place. You are selfish. Why would you raise such a question?"

But that isn't what Jesus did; he did something altogether different. He said in substance, "Oh, I see, you want to be first. You want to be great. You want to be important. You want to be significant. Well, you ought to be. If you're going to be my disciple, you must be." But he reordered priorities. And he said, "Yes, don't give up this instinct. It's a good instinct if you use it right. (Yes) It's a good instinct if you don't distort it and pervert it. Don't give it up. Keep feeling the need for being important. Keep feeling the need for being first. But I want you to be first in love. (Amen) I want you to be first in moral excellence. I want you to be first in generosity. That is what I want you to do."

And he transformed the situation by giving a new definition of greatness. And you know how he said it? He said, "Now brethren, I can't give you greatness. And really, I can't make you first." This is what Jesus said to James and John. "You must earn it. True greatness comes not by favoritism, but by fitness. And the right hand and the left are not mine to give, they belong to those who are prepared." (Amen)

And so Jesus gave us a new norm of greatness. If you want to be important—wonderful. If you want to be recognized—wonderful. If you want to be great—wonderful. But recognize that he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. (Amen) That's a new definition of greatness.

And this morning, the thing that I like about it: by giving that definition of greatness, it means that everybody can be great, (Everybody) because everybody can serve. (Amen) You don't have to have a college degree to serve. (All right) You don't have to make your subject and your verb agree to serve. You don't have to know about Plato and Aristotle to serve. You don't have to know Einstein's theory of relativity to serve. You don't have to know the second theory of thermodynamics in physics to serve. (Amen) You only need a heart full of grace, (Yes, sir, Amen) a soul generated by love."

http://kingencyclopedia.stanford.edu/encyclopedia/documentsentry/doc_the_drum_major_instinct/index.html


MLK was a great man and brought the teachings of Christ as a compassionate,tolerant and all encompassing man. While I'm a atheist religion used the right way can be a force for good and as in all religions the message is positive. Unfortunately too much of religion has been hijacked by the intolerant and corrupt.

Where are the MLKs, JFKs of today a sad state with the intolerance of the Trump regime!
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#145 » by dckingsfan » Mon Feb 5, 2018 2:31 pm

Pointgod wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:Nate, are you seriously arguing this whacko conspiracy bs? You are better than this. Come back to the light man.

Your man Trump and a good dozen or so of his staff are going to jail because your side is evil. Be a good sport about it, admit you were wrong, we will forgive you.

He's really not.

He really is...
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#146 » by cammac » Mon Feb 5, 2018 2:33 pm

Can the Republicans get even more despicable?
Onetime head of the American Nazi Party is running for Congress in Illinois 3rd congressional district.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#147 » by gtn130 » Mon Feb 5, 2018 2:35 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
Pointgod wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:Nate, are you seriously arguing this whacko conspiracy bs? You are better than this. Come back to the light man.

Your man Trump and a good dozen or so of his staff are going to jail because your side is evil. Be a good sport about it, admit you were wrong, we will forgive you.

He's really not.

He really is...


You're going to bat for a racist who spreads conspiracy theories
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#148 » by gtn130 » Mon Feb 5, 2018 2:38 pm

cammac wrote:SD20s new pick for Attorney General quoted this.
But Gowdy, who was closely involved in drafting the memo, listed a number of aspects of the investigation that have nothing to do with putting Page under surveillance based on the Steele dossier, which was funded by Democratic interests.

“The dossier has nothing to do with the meeting at Trump Tower. The dossier has nothing to do with an email sent by Cambridge Analytica. The dossier really has nothing to do with George Papadopoulos’ meeting in Great Britain.”


In retrospect maybe not a good choice for the Trumpster!

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/trump-mueller-investigation-the-memo_us_5a77189fe4b0905433b51279


Yup.

From the article:

“So there’s going to be a Russia probe, even without a dossier,” Gowdy said.

Does this make Gowdy a leftist shill for the Hillary Clinton Deep State?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#149 » by cammac » Mon Feb 5, 2018 2:39 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
Pointgod wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:Nate, are you seriously arguing this whacko conspiracy bs? You are better than this. Come back to the light man.

Your man Trump and a good dozen or so of his staff are going to jail because your side is evil. Be a good sport about it, admit you were wrong, we will forgive you.

He's really not.

He really is...

While I enjoy your posts and in many cases are thought provoking and well written.
I have fought racism in my own way for the better part of my life and saw Nate's indefensible comments on Muslims, Blacks,Immigrants and everything else that didn't fit into his homogeneous white world. So no he isn't better than that actually far worse.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#150 » by nate33 » Mon Feb 5, 2018 2:47 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:Nate, are you seriously arguing this whacko conspiracy bs? You are better than this. Come back to the light man.

Your man Trump and a good dozen or so of his staff are going to jail because your side is evil. Be a good sport about it, admit you were wrong, we will forgive you.

* Why do you suppose Natalia Veselnitskaya visited Fusion GPS before and after her meeting with Trump?

* Why did Comey deviate from long established protocol to notify Congress every quarterly about sensitive investigations, but failed to notify Congress about the Trump investigation for 8 months?

* Why did Strozk refer to an "insurance policy" that was worked out in "Andy's office" in case Trump was elected?

* Why did the FBI deliberately omit the critical information that Steele Dossier was paid for by the Clinton campaign?

* Why did the FBI continue to work with Steele after they knew he leaked to Yahoo News (prior to getting the FISA warrant) but later cut ties with Steele after he leaked to Mother Jones (after getting the FISA warrant)?

* Why did the FBI change the wording of the letter that reopened the Hillary Clinton email investigation ten days before the election, - changing it from "grossly negligent" to "extremely careless"?

* Why did James Clapper flatly deny in a CNN interview in March 2017 the possibility of a FISA surveillance warrant on the Trump team. He claimed boldly that no warrant exists and if there was one, he would definitely know. And then in September of 2017 he changes his story and says there could have been wiretaps. Why did he lie the first time?

* When the FBI finally obtained a Title 1 FISA warrant for Page in October of 2016, Page had already been kicked off the Trump team, yet they used that warrant as an excuse to tap Trump's communications. Does that seem right?

* Why did Strzok (an admitted Trump hater) and another agent ambush Flynn with an interrogation without any forewarning and without Flynn having an attorney? Were they really that concerned about the Logan Act? Does that not seem highly irregular for a biased agent to interrogate Flynn for a "crime" that has never been prosecuted in 200 years?


This is pathetic. That’s all you’ve got? You’re wrong, your side is evil and going to jail where they belong. You’ve taken the side of evil. You are a traitor to your country.

I note that you failed to address any of my questions.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#151 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Feb 5, 2018 2:47 pm

gtn130 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
Pointgod wrote:He's really not.

He really is...


You're going to bat for a racist who spreads conspiracy theories


I don't agree with that, I think in the past Nate has come here bringing the best arguments that the conservative blogosphere has to support their agenda, which I find very educational. It's actually very easy to find evidence to support a racist mindset and you have to think very carefully to see the contradictions and statistical misrepresentations in the arguments Nate brings to the table.

That's the point MLK is making in his drum major speech. It's easier to be racist, to base your personal feelings of success on your whiteness, than it is to define success by works of lovingkindness.

It's disappointing, therefore, to see Nate spew forth a list of outright lies that are so easily disproven that it brings shame on the name, family, and honor of whomever repeats them as truth. If *that* is the best the conservative blogosphere has to offer, then it's time to admit the conservative blogosphere is just flat out wrong and to stop parroting their lies and propaganda until Trump and his cronies are in jail where they belong and things can go back to normal.

I mean, I get it. You want to fight against the status quo and you elected this guy to go in and bust things up and you don't care if the targets of your ire complain that the status quo is being changed. I totally understand that. But you chose the wrong guy to go in and bust up the status quo. This isn't George Washington. This is Fidel Castro.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#152 » by gtn130 » Mon Feb 5, 2018 2:55 pm

nate33 wrote:But Russia DIDN'T ACTUALLY HELP the Trump administration. Those suggestions that they had dirt on Hillary always came to nothing. It looks to me that Russia was trying to get the Trump Administration in legal hot water, so that they would later have leverage over them. Why else do you set up a meeting with Trump Jr. ostensibly to give him dirt but instead to talk about the freaking Maginsky Act?

Oh, and by the way, when Natalia Veselnitskaya set up a meeting with Donald Trump Jr., why do you suppose she also had a meeting with Fusion GPS before and after her meeting with Trump? And why was it that the Justice Department pulled strings in a highly unusual manner to get her a visa to come to America that day when her visa application was initially denied by Homeland Security?


This is nonsense.

Wikileaks is a Russian proxy. They strategically leaked the emails they stole, dressed them up and scandalized them all for maximum impact.They played a huge role in deciding the election, and they were incontrovertibly on Trump's side. Again, this is pure gaslighting on your part.

Regarding Veselnitskaya - let's say your assumptions are 100% correct (they're not) and she is a government agent working against Trump. Here's the thing, man: the Trump team failed that test miserably. It would be one thing if the Trump team turned her down, but they took a meeting with her!

Saying Trump was set up by the #DeepState doesn't actually make him look any better because it shows he's either:

A) Very interested in treasonous activity
B) Stupid and incompetent
C) All of the above
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#153 » by dckingsfan » Mon Feb 5, 2018 2:55 pm

cammac wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
Pointgod wrote:He's really not.

He really is...

While I enjoy your posts and in many cases are thought provoking and well written. I have fought racism in my own way for the better part of my life and saw Nate's indefensible comments on Muslims, Blacks,Immigrants and everything else that didn't fit into his homogeneous white world. So no he isn't better than that actually far worse.

I think everyone is worth it. I have seen Trump twist this country into a knot - if we are to get out of it, it isn't going to be an us against them issue. You have seen the same (anecdotally) with your wife.

I am an old guy - I have seen things shift with respect to racism. It has been ever so slow but steady to the point that we had a black president. And that progress didn't come from the us against them crowd - it came from the we (MLK) crowd.

My two cents...
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#154 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Feb 5, 2018 3:01 pm

* Why do you suppose Natalia Veselnitskaya visited Fusion GPS before and after her meeting with Trump?

Who cares? Why would that matter?

* Why did Comey deviate from long established protocol to notify Congress every quarterly about sensitive investigations, but failed to notify Congress about the Trump investigation for 8 months?

Because the target of the investigation was Trump?

* Why did Strozk refer to an "insurance policy" that was worked out in "Andy's office" in case Trump was elected?

Who cares? Is it illegal for FBI agents to have political opinions? I think the opposite is true, if all the people investigating Trump were Trump sycophants I would be worried about the integrity of the investigation. I'm relieved that at least one Trump hater was on the team keeping everyone honest.

* Why did the FBI deliberately omit the critical information that Steele Dossier was paid for by the Clinton campaign?

They didn't. And it doesn't matter. A lot of the data the FBI gets is from people who have an ax to grind. It comes with the territory.

* Why did the FBI continue to work with Steele after they knew he leaked to Yahoo News (prior to getting the FISA warrant) but later cut ties with Steele after he leaked to Mother Jones (after getting the FISA warrant)?

Who knows? Why does it matter? The FISA warrant was not based on the Steele dossier so it doesn't matter.

* Why did the FBI change the wording of the letter that reopened the Hillary Clinton email investigation ten days before the election, - changing it from "grossly negligent" to "extremely careless"?

Because grossly negligent implies HRC was guilty of a crime, and the FBI had no evidence that she was, so to say she was grossly negligent would be factually incorrect.

* Why did James Clapper flatly deny in a CNN interview in March 2017 the possibility of a FISA surveillance warrant on the Trump team. He claimed boldly that no warrant exists and if there was one, he would definitely know. And then in September of 2017 he changes his story and says there could have been wiretaps. Why did he lie the first time?

Who cares?

* When the FBI finally obtained a Title 1 FISA warrant for Page in October of 2016, Page had already been kicked off the Trump team, yet they used that warrant as an excuse to tap Trump's communications. Does that seem right?

WTF are you talking about? The FISA warrant at issue in Nunes nutlicker's memo was asking for permission to surveil Page. You're embarrassing me Nate.

* Why did Strzok (an admitted Trump hater) and another agent ambush Flynn with an interrogation without any forewarning and without Flynn having an attorney? Were they really that concerned about the Logan Act? Does that not seem highly irregular for a biased agent to interrogate Flynn for a "crime" that has never been prosecuted in 200 years?

OH MY GOD THEY USED STANDARD COP INTERROGATION TECHNIQUES ON MY SAINTLY ANGEL TRUMP HOW DARE THEY? Again, I'm glad they had an admitted Trump hater on the team and am sorry he was let go. It would be corrupt and immoral and fascist to require ideological purity of every member of the investigative team.

Why didn't I rebut these? Because a fourth grader could and it's not worth my time. I'm not interested in engaging in irrelevant or incorrect arguments. I expect better from you. I want arguments that I at least need to spend ten seconds googling something to rebut, instead of just exploding them off the top of my head. These are *terrible* arguments.

Yes. The FISA process is secret and that allows it to be abused. I think that is a perfectly legitimate conversation to have. But using a memo criticizing the FBI as a weapon to protect the president from a legitimate investigation into his crimes is not an intellectually honest way to have this conversation.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#155 » by FAH1223 » Mon Feb 5, 2018 3:03 pm

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#156 » by gtn130 » Mon Feb 5, 2018 3:04 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:
gtn130 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:He really is...


You're going to bat for a racist who spreads conspiracy theories


I don't agree with that, I think in the past Nate has come here bringing the best arguments that the conservative blogosphere has to support their agenda, which I find very educational. It's actually very easy to find evidence to support a racist mindset and you have to think very carefully to see the contradictions and statistical misrepresentations in the arguments Nate brings to the table.

That's the point MLK is making in his drum major speech. It's easier to be racist, to base your personal feelings of success on your whiteness, than it is to define success by works of lovingkindness.

It's disappointing, therefore, to see Nate spew forth a list of outright lies that are so easily disproven that it brings shame on the name, family, and honor of whomever repeats them as truth. If *that* is the best the conservative blogosphere has to offer, then it's time to admit the conservative blogosphere is just flat out wrong and to stop parroting their lies and propaganda until Trump and his cronies are in jail where they belong and things can go back to normal.

I mean, I get it. You want to fight against the status quo and you elected this guy to go in and bust things up and you don't care if the targets of your ire complain that the status quo is being changed. I totally understand that. But you chose the wrong guy to go in and bust up the status quo. This isn't George Washington. This is Fidel Castro.


Have you considered Nate's inability to vet any of his sources is a feature and not a bug?

Legitimately every single time I've gone down the rabbit hole with Nate, I've shown him that his sources are, without a shadow of doubt, totally unreliable at best. And he'll even concede this point when you show him!

But yet here we are in year twenty eighteen and Nate hasn't changed his behavior or the 'news' he consumes in any material way. Why do you think that is? Because he's dumb and unaware? He just rattled off like ten bullet points about the #DeepState!

Let's dispel once and for all with the fiction that Nate doesn't know what he is doing, he knows exactly what he is doing - Marco Rubio
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#157 » by cammac » Mon Feb 5, 2018 3:05 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
cammac wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:He really is...

While I enjoy your posts and in many cases are thought provoking and well written. I have fought racism in my own way for the better part of my life and saw Nate's indefensible comments on Muslims, Blacks,Immigrants and everything else that didn't fit into his homogeneous white world. So no he isn't better than that actually far worse.

I think everyone is worth it. I have seen Trump twist this country into a knot - if we are to get out of it, it isn't going to be an us against them issue. You have seen the same (anecdotally) with your wife.

I am an old guy - I have seen things shift with respect to racism. It has been ever so slow but steady to the point that we had a black president. And that progress didn't come from the us against them crowd - it came from the we (MLK) crowd.


My two cents...


We are both old guys!
We have very similar views with maybe different context simply because we live in different democracies. I understand your frustration with the current system and absolutely know you don't agree with some of Nate's racially charged analysis. You only need to look at LBJ who pushed legislation through both houses that JFK might not have been able to do. LBJ was a pragmatist who put the country ahead of some of his personal views.
I actually wish that you would post more and I hope everything is well with you in Texas!
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#158 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Feb 5, 2018 3:18 pm

gtn130 wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:
gtn130 wrote:
You're going to bat for a racist who spreads conspiracy theories


I don't agree with that, I think in the past Nate has come here bringing the best arguments that the conservative blogosphere has to support their agenda, which I find very educational. It's actually very easy to find evidence to support a racist mindset and you have to think very carefully to see the contradictions and statistical misrepresentations in the arguments Nate brings to the table.

That's the point MLK is making in his drum major speech. It's easier to be racist, to base your personal feelings of success on your whiteness, than it is to define success by works of lovingkindness.

It's disappointing, therefore, to see Nate spew forth a list of outright lies that are so easily disproven that it brings shame on the name, family, and honor of whomever repeats them as truth. If *that* is the best the conservative blogosphere has to offer, then it's time to admit the conservative blogosphere is just flat out wrong and to stop parroting their lies and propaganda until Trump and his cronies are in jail where they belong and things can go back to normal.

I mean, I get it. You want to fight against the status quo and you elected this guy to go in and bust things up and you don't care if the targets of your ire complain that the status quo is being changed. I totally understand that. But you chose the wrong guy to go in and bust up the status quo. This isn't George Washington. This is Fidel Castro.


Have you considered Nate's inability to vet any of his sources is a feature and not a bug?

Legitimately every single time I've gone down the rabbit hole with Nate, I've shown him that his sources are, without a shadow of doubt, totally unreliable at best. And he'll even concede this point when you show him!

But yet here we are in year twenty eighteen and Nate hasn't changed his behavior or the 'news' he consumes in any material way. Why do you think that is? Because he's dumb and unaware? He just rattled off like ten bullet points about the #DeepState!

Let's dispel once and for all with the fiction that Nate doesn't know what he is doing, he knows exactly what he is doing - Marco Rubio


Don't get me wrong. Nate is who he is - I'm not saying he isn't. Nevertheless, the fact that Nate is actually willing to engage in a fact-based conversation makes him orders of magnitude better than the typical garbage you face on the intertubes. Plus I would be a bad Jew if I were to judge Nate. My job is to speak the truth, that's all.
I've been taught all my life to value service to the weak and powerless.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#159 » by TGW » Mon Feb 5, 2018 3:28 pm

FAH1223 wrote:
Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter


Hey look, it's Drump spreading misinformation and fake news. What a shock!
Some random troll wrote:Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#160 » by TGW » Mon Feb 5, 2018 3:29 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:
Don't get me wrong. Nate is who he is - I'm not saying he isn't. Nevertheless, the fact that Nate is actually willing to engage in a fact-based conversation makes him orders of magnitude better than the typical garbage you face on the intertubes. Plus I would be a bad Jew if I were to judge Nate. My job is to speak the truth, that's all.


Nate is a race-baiting pseudo-intellectual. He's no better than your typical stormfront troll.
Some random troll wrote:Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster.

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